Is Noodlers Black pigmented or dye-based?

[TSherbs]

This is a topic that has developed from another thread (off topic). It has been claimed that Noodler's Black is actually NOT a dye based ink but rather an  pigmented ink relying on particulates for its color and permanence. This is contrary to what Luxury Brands has stated about the ink (calling it "dye-based") and contrary to what Jet Pens, Goulet Pens, and some other retailers have stated about the properties of the ink (each calling it dye-based).

 

Has anyone investigated this ink for its materials or properties and care to comment? It is an intriguing claim, and Noodler's Black does seem to develop a kind of grainy appearance on use (I'll let others make more detailed points here). I am trying to solicit more opinions on this just to see if there is any actual users' consensus out there, or any other users who have looked into this more carefully. I don't know how to contact Mr. Tardif directly (the contact button goes to Luxury Brands).

 

[LizEF]

IMO, it may be useful for folks to see that previous thread.  And I'll note that in my searching of Noodler's YouTube channel, I could not find a video about (Bulletproof) Black.

 

So, I decided to go ahead and make a slide of this ink now.  My sample was purchased from Goulet Pens in February 2022.  Here's the ink wet, under a cover slip.  We'll have to wait days for it to dry.  After laying the cover slip, I pushed it a little with the pipette to spread the ink out more (see image 2).  The ink on one side of the cover slip is thicker / darker than the other.  As always, ink collects near the edge of the cover slip - trying to escape, no doubt.

 

Image 1, 400x, the darker side, at the edge of the cover slip.  This appearance is similar to pigmented inks, but I cannot say that dye cannot do this.  IMO, only a trained chemist could come close to making such a claim:

 

Image 2, 100x, on the other side of the cover slip, where ink is thinner.  I believe this is ink that "collected" as I pushed the cover slip.

 

And Image 3, also on the thinner side, but 400x.  Again, this is similar to what I've seen from pigmented inks - the sort of sandy / silt deposited by waves appearance:

 

And here's a video, just for fun, because while I was trying to focus, the ink was moving around!   "It's aliiiiivve!"  Again, trying to escape, no doubt.  I tried some focusing after a while, so watch to the end to see if any of it looks better...  (It's only 50 seconds.)

 

[LizEF]

1 minute ago, LizEF said:

This appearance is similar to pigmented inks, but I cannot say that dye cannot do this.

I wish to comment on this further:

1. For all I know, the fact that I've seen this appearance in pigmented inks may be because they are permanent, not because they are pigmented.
2. For all I know, cellulose-reactive dyes exhibit the same appearance as pigments.
3. For all I know, only staining (or permanent) pigments exhibit this behavior, and there are pigments that don't.
4. For all I know, this is all a fluke or coincidences - e.g. some lubricant or flow-aid causes this (when combined with other ingredients, or any time it's used).

You get the idea.  The last time I took a chemistry class was in the 1980s and it was just an introductory type course.  Life has taught me that most things like this are a lot more complicated than they might seem.  So.  Maybe it's pigmented and there's a grand conspiracy to defraud fountain pen users everywhere.   Or maybe it's a dye that's different from non-staining / non-permanent dyes.   Or maybe it's from outer space.   I personally have no idea. And I'm far more comfortable saying that than I am in suggesting that some stranger is a liar based off nothing more than what I, in my ignorance, see on a slide.

[LizEF]

Forgot to mention, when I shook up the sample vial, I discovered that this ink did not appear to have settled, nothing seemed to have separated out, it didn't stick to the walls or lid of the vial, and didn't stain anything.  The ink seemed very "cohesive" - it stuck together and wanted nothing to do with anything else.  It came off and out of my plastic pipette easier than any permanent ink I've tried so far.  (In other words, this is one way that it doesn't behave like a pigmented ink usually does.)  It'll be interesting to see how easily it comes off the slide - pigmented / permanent inks often require longer soaking and some rubbing / scraping to get it entirely off the glass.

[TSherbs]

Thanks, Liz. Very interesting images. I don't think that anyone would misinterpret your purpose here: simply to share your images. I mostly can't even tell what I am looking at, so he heck if I know. Let's see what other info or insight others may bring to the thread.

[TSherbs]

Luxury Brands answered my query and called Noodler's Black "dye-based." Goulet Pens has not yet responded to my same query.

[LizEF]

47 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

Thanks, Liz.

You're very welcome.

 

47 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

Very interesting images. I don't think that anyone would misinterpret your purpose here: simply to share your images. I mostly can't even tell what I am looking at, so he heck if I know.

Thanks!  As to what you're seeing, well, it looks to me like lots of tiny particles, but not in a clear fluid - the liquid portion is also grey (looks brownish in the images, but that's just the microscopy).

 

49 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

Let's see what other info or insight others may bring to the thread.

Yes, very curious if any of our scientists have comments.

[AceNinja]

5 hours ago, LizEF said:

 

 

this just looks like the surface of the sun!  and those blacks are the sun spots.  interesting looks!

[Arkanabar]

I forget whether Noodler's bulletproof inks are supposed to have a mordant, and whether that also would dissolve in water, the way dyes are supposed to.

[LizEF]

36 minutes ago, AceNinja said:

this just looks like the surface of the sun!  and those blacks are the sun spots.  interesting looks!

Another vote for outer space!

 

21 minutes ago, Arkanabar said:

I forget whether Noodler's bulletproof inks are supposed to have a mordant, and whether that also would dissolve in water, the way dyes are supposed to.

Per google:

Quote

mordant

a substance, typically an inorganic oxide, that combines with a dye or stain and thereby fixes it in a material.

 

So that could be what's swimming around on my slide...

[TSherbs]

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

Another vote for outer space!

 

Per google:

 

So that could be what's swimming around on my slide...

Mordant!

 

This is an interesting term.

[TSherbs]

Goulet customer service got back to me and said that Noodler's black inks are "dye based."

 

 

 

 

[AceNinja]

3 hours ago, TSherbs said:

Goulet customer service got back to me and said that Noodler's black inks are "dye based."

 

7 hours ago, TSherbs said:

Luxury Brands answered my query and called Noodler's Black "dye-based." Goulet Pens has not yet responded to my same query.

I believe most of the ink properties (for example dye or pigment) that the retailers and distributor put on their website/marketing material is solely based on what the manufacturers tell them.  They don't themselves independently test/determine if it's dye or pigment based.  So Noodler's told his distributor (Luxury Brands) that it is dye-based, and Luxury Brands told all the retailers that it is dye-based, and therefore the most likely answer you'll get from all the retailers is: "dye based".

[Mangrove Jack]

I dropped an open bottle of Noodler's Black Bulletproof ink and significant quantities of ink splashed onto my white trouser and white wall. 

 

Using a sponge, soap and water I got all the ink off the wall and no stain remains. Also, after a good overnight soaking in laundry detergent and a machine wash my trouser has only the mildest of stains and can still be well used for official functions.

 

My guess is that if the ink had pigments in it to make it permanent it would not have washed off a white wall and white cloth this easily/well. 

 

 

[TSherbs]

6 hours ago, AceNinja said:

 

I believe most of the ink properties (for example dye or pigment) that the retailers and distributor put on their website/marketing material is solely based on what the manufacturers tell them.  

 

indeed

[TSherbs]

6 hours ago, Mangrove Jack said:

I dropped an open bottle of Noodler's Black Bulletproof ink and significant quantities of ink splashed onto my white trouser and white wall. 

 

Using a sponge, soap and water I got all the ink off the wall and no stain remains. Also, after a good overnight soaking in laundry detergent and a machine wash my trouser has only the mildest of stains and can still be well used for official functions.

 

My guess is that if the ink had pigments in it to make it permanent it would not have washed off a white wall and white cloth this easily/well. 

 

Nobody will likely try to duplicate this "experiment"! 🤓

[LizEF]

7 hours ago, Mangrove Jack said:

I dropped an open bottle of Noodler's Black Bulletproof ink and significant quantities of ink splashed onto my white trouser and white wall. 

 

Using a sponge, soap and water I got all the ink off the wall and no stain remains. Also, after a good overnight soaking in laundry detergent and a machine wash my trouser has only the mildest of stains and can still be well used for official functions.

 

My guess is that if the ink had pigments in it to make it permanent it would not have washed off a white wall and white cloth this easily/well.

IMO, this is really good evidence both for "not pigment" and "is cellulose-reactive".

[Monophoto]

May be mistaken, but I believe I read somewhere that Nathan Tardif has stated rather forcefully that he would never make a pigment-based ink.

[TSherbs]

I don't recall ever having read/heard this, so thanks for sharing it.

[BrassRatt]

I just found out here what a "lake pigment" is.  So ... 

Is there such a thing as a cellulose-reactive lake pigment?  

Could there be? 

What would its properties (probably) be?