Pigment Black ink that is pigment only, no dyes?

[LizEF]

8 hours ago, arcfide said:

I also wonder how much of this is related to inks that are in the process of drying out or, in the case of iron gall inks, oxidizing, versus their "pure" state. 

 

Well, both of those were from November of last year, well after I'd started leaving the slide for the full duration of the review - so, 4-5 days - in Utah, where it's really, really dry.  I found that inks get more interesting after they've had a few days to dry out (some are interesting right away, but most need to dry).  In other words, I think those were dry.

 

Iron galls, on the other hand - I don't know how long oxidation takes.  And I suppose I don't know how much protection the cover slip gives, but I don't think it's enough to keep them from drying out, otherwise they wouldn't change over the course of those days...

 

As of this year, I'm only doing one review per week, so the ink gets ~7 days on the slide before I photograph it - divas!

[LizEF]

25 minutes ago, Gomer said:

@LizEF  I'd like to make sure we are doing the same thing.  Are your photos taken wet under a cover slip or dry?  I want to look at a few more of my small selection of inks.  Maybe I will see some of the weird patterns you found.

 

Thanks

Please see the post I just made.  I don't remember the point at which I started giving inks more than a couple of days on the slide, but at some point before these two, I started giving inks the full review period to dry because I discovered some inks got more interesting as they dry.  I do use a cover slip, but it doesn't keep the ink from drying out, just slows it down.

[TSherbs]

This is the response from Noodler's/Luxury Brands to my query about whether Noodler's Black is dye or pigment based: "It's dye based."

 

I'll let you know what I hear back from Goulet. 

[Gomer]

21 minutes ago, LizEF said:

Please see the post I just made.  I don't remember the point at which I started giving inks more than a couple of days on the slide, but at some point before these two, I started giving inks the full review period to dry because I discovered some inks got more interesting as they dry.  I do use a cover slip, but it doesn't keep the ink from drying out, just slows it down.

I think that explains the patterns.   Some of the components are crystalizing as they dry.  They would probably look really pretty with polarizing filters.  I looked at Noodler's black wet, fresh from the bottle.  In that state, I believe you would find that dye based inks appear as a smooth continuous color.  I will go through my few samples and see if that seems true.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[TSherbs]

meanwhile, this is what is written on the JetPens page for Noodlers' inks: 

Quote

Noodler’s flagship “bulletproof” inks use special cellulose-reactive dyes that are permanent on paper yet gentle and easy to clean from pens. They are highly resistant to water, bleach, and other solvents, as well as UV radiation and most other tools used by forgers and check washers. All bulletproof inks are also “eternal,” a Noodler’s term meaning that they are fade resistant, humidity resistant, and archival.

Because the permanence of bulletproof ink comes from its special ability to bind with the cellulose fibers in paper, it works best on ordinary, lightly textured paper such as standard copy paper. The texture exposes more fibers to the surface and makes it easier for the ink to be absorbed.

 

This is, admittedly, ad copy for a retailer, but it is hard to imagine that Noodlers would allow a mistatement of fact about the fundamental qualities of its most popular ink on a national sales website. But yet, you never know. 

[LizEF]

3 minutes ago, Gomer said:

I think that explains the patterns.   Some of the components are crystalizing as they dry.  They would probably look really pretty with polarizing filters.  I looked at Noodler's black wet, fresh from the bottle.  In that state, I believe you would find that dye based inks appear as a smooth continuous color.  I will go through my few samples and see if that seems true.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

You're welcome.

 

Yes, when I first put them on the slide, most inks are a boring monotonous color.  Like chromatography, the slide doesn't get interesting until the various dyes (and presumably other ingredients) separate.

[TSherbs]

Can fountain pen inks be a mixture of pigment and dye?

[Gomer]

31 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

Can fountain pen inks be a mixture of pigment and dye?

I'm sure they could if there were some advantage from doing it.  Maybe some of the pigmented inks have some dye.

 

I'll repeat my earlier claim:  MY bottle of Noodler's black is a pigmented ink, no dyes.

 

The question is:  Why would Mister Tardif or his distributers claim different?

 

It's a fine ink.  It writes well.  It's permanent and archival.  Carbon doesn't bleach or fade.  It may leave a film of carbon in your pen, and I would shake the bottle before any refill.  But, the same would be true for other pigmented black inks.

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, TSherbs said:

Can fountain pen inks be a mixture of pigment and dye?

(I am not a chemist, but...) I don't know why not.  We know there are iron gall + dye inks.  And we know there are inks where part is water resistant and part is not (perhaps that's just a staining dye + a non-staining dye, I don't know).  I don't recall specific claims of pigment + dye, but i see no reason one couldn't do that if they wanted.

[JulieParadise]

On 3/12/2023 at 12:12 AM, Gomer said:

In spite of what you might have heard, Noodler's black is not dye based.  I've looked at it under a microscope and it is a clear carrier with black particles. The cellulose-reactive dye claim is bogus.

 

Well, we might as well end the discussion here, can't we? 

 

No, seriously, that is a pretty strong statement which goes against everything the manufacturer and all retailers have been stating about these inks for years.

[Karmachanic]

1 hour ago, Gomer said:

The question is:  Why would Mister Tardif or his distributers claim different?

 

Just to wind you up?

[TSherbs]

18 minutes ago, JulieParadise said:

 

Well, we might as well end the discussion here, can't we? 

 

No, seriously, that is a pretty strong statement which goes against everything the manufacturer and all retailers have been stating about these inks for years.

 

1 hour ago, Gomer said:

I'm sure they could if there were some advantage from doing it.  Maybe some of the pigmented inks have some dye.

 

I'll repeat my earlier claim:  MY bottle of Noodler's black is a pigmented ink, no dyes.

 

The question is:  Why would Mister Tardif or his distributers claim different?

 

It's a fine ink.  It writes well.  It's permanent and archival.  Carbon doesn't bleach or fade.  It may leave a film of carbon in your pen, and I would shake the bottle before any refill.  But, the same would be true for other pigmented black inks.

Honestly, Gomer: the question you pose here isn't the only or even first question that your post raises.

 

The first question is, is Gomer accurate in his conclusion? Are Gomer's examination methods reliable for the presence or lack of dye in fountain pen ink? (I don't know). 

 

Second question, Is Gomer calling Noodlers and distributors liars? (This is why I decided to investigate and inquire as to how Noodlers actually describes their bulletproof Black ink. I have not found yet any place where Mr. Tardif describes the ink one way or another, but I have not rewatched all his videos. The Noodlers distributor has described the ink to me as "dye based" )

 

Third question: Has anyone else done an investigation into the materials in Noodler's Black? And if so, what were their conclusions? (in other words, are there any corroborating examinations?)

 

Fourth question: If a consensus is that Noodler's Black is a pigmented ink, then, Why has Noodlers and the distributor and the retailers described it as "dye based"? Only now do we naturally get to your question.

[TSherbs]

I'll start another thread on this topic and see what other people think. And divert this conversation there.

[Gomer]

My initial post to this thread was to respond to the poster who made the statement that Noodler's black is a dye based ink.  I know from my observations that this is not true.  I wanted to point that out.  Whether someone is lying or there is just a misunderstanding, I  don't know.  Whether you believe me or not, I don't care.

 

I'm done.

[TSherbs]

I started a different thread on this topic. I'll see if any other persons have some insight into it also. Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

New thread here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/370915-is-noodlers-black-pigmented-or-dye-based/

[dipper]

10 hours ago, TSherbs said:

Can fountain pen inks be a mixture of pigment and dye?

 

Some paints certainly are made that way, so the door is open for an ink to follow suit.

 

In artist's paints, the paints of special note are called "lake pigments".

 

A "lake" pigment is made by combining a soluble dye with insoluble colourless solid particles. The dye bonds to the solid particles.

 

Fifty years ago a student grade watercolour set would probably include colours such as "Scarlet Lake". Less seen now as modern chemists and the motor car industry have generated much better alternatives.

 

The reason that lake pigments were made was to suit the needs of artist paints, especially for hues or transparency effects that could not be found in a "normal" pigment, natural or manufactured.

 

Why would anyone use a lake pigment in a fountain pen ink? When sheen and shimmer and chromo-shading become old-hat will that be the time for manufacturers to launch brilliant opaque sky blue nano-lake-pigment ink??!

 

It can still be done ...

https://edu.rsc.org/resources/how-to-make-a-lake-pigment-paint/1951.article

[TSherbs]

49 minutes ago, dipper said:

 

Some paints certainly are made that way, so the door is open for an ink to follow suit.

 

In artist's paints, the paints of special note are called "lake pigments".

 

A "lake" pigment is made by combining a soluble dye with insoluble colourless solid particles. The dye bonds to the solid particles.

 

Fifty years ago a student grade watercolour set would probably include colours such as "Scarlet Lake". Less seen now as modern chemists and the motor car industry have generated much better alternatives.

 

The reason that lake pigments were made was to suit the needs of artist paints, especially for hues or transparency effects that could not be found in a "normal" pigment, natural or manufactured.

 

Why would anyone use a lake pigment in a fountain pen ink? When sheen and shimmer and chromo-shading become old-hat will that be the time for manufacturers to launch brilliant opaque sky blue nano-lake-pigment ink??!

 

It can still be done ...

https://edu.rsc.org/resources/how-to-make-a-lake-pigment-paint/1951.article

 

Very interesting, Dipper!

[dragondazd]

Something in ng has been confusing me.

 

So I have some inkpads of ink that is meant for non-porous surfaces. These types of inkpads are pigment based, not dye based. If someone deliberately wanted to permanently stain plastic, one would use pigment ink of some kind, not dye. 

[dragondazd]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:51 PM, amper said:

Because it has no dye, it doesn't stain anything, and cleans completely from plastics and metals, but on paper, it is highly water-resistant and lightfast.

I don't think all dyes stain plastic. I don't know if all pigments do not stain plastic without binder. I also don't know if all pigments without binder are water resistant and lightfast. 

 

I think you can find inks that are water resistant, light resistant, and do not stain plastic that may use dyes or binders.

[amper]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, TSherbs said:

Can fountain pen inks be a mixture of pigment and dye?

There's no reason why they couldn't, and for a lot of purposes, combining dye and pigment could have particular advantages.