Are we doing ink swaps anymore?

[Shannon]

The thread is old and not very active.  Just curious.

[ErrantSmudge]

I suspect the high price of shipping has put the kibosh on a lot of these exchange/swap programs.

[A Smug Dill]

This has certainly killed it for Australian hobbyists, except to perhaps share between themselves as a subgroup, separate from the US-based and Europe-based subgroups:

 

[HalloweenHJB]

Very sad to hear this.  Ink swapping and sharing used to be one of the most exciting benefits of FPN.  I received and gave away so many bottles of ink over the years, and it was a delightful part of the civility and generosity of the inky community here.  

 

I'll meditate on this tonight, and maybe I'll find a reasonable option for reviving our ancient custom.  

 

HJB

[Shannon]

Quote

I'll find a reasonable option for reviving our ancient custom

 

 

I'm happy to be a partner in crime....  I miss all of the swaps, and trades, and classifieds that made this forum so interactive.

[HalloweenHJB]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:35 PM, Shannon said:

 

 

I'm happy to be a partner in crime....  I miss all of the swaps, and trades, and classifieds that made this forum so interactive.

 

Let me take a look at my collection, and see what I find for you.  I'll send a PM for address.  Yes?

[A Smug Dill]

I've been organising one in the background, and finalising it just now. Ink ‘swaps’ still happen today, even between FPN members, but perhaps just not in an openly visible manner.

 

On 1/10/2023 at 1:02 PM, ErrantSmudge said:

I suspect the high price of shipping has put the kibosh on a lot of these exchange/swap programs.

On 1/10/2023 at 1:22 PM, A Smug Dill said:

This has certainly killed it for Australian hobbyists, except to perhaps share between themselves as a subgroup,

 

… when we can still do something like this:

[AmandaW]

And that ^^^ is a lesson in packaging ink. A few days ago I received a bottle of ink which was meant to be 'almost full' but, while it was done up firmly, still leaked badly in transit. I have made the same errors as the seller and sent a mess before studying best practice examples... air travel is tough on ink bottles.

[PJohnP]

Things are a far cry from a decade back.  Shipping inks in the US has become not only expensive , but difficult with restrictions on liquids in the mail.  Some post offices in the United States will flatly refuse to mail them, although it is permitted.  Shipping typically only goes by ground now through the postal service.

 

However...  one needs to have everything lined-up correctly.

 

The relevant requirements for mailing ink in the United States can be found here :

 

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_021.htm

 

Look at section 343.26 Paints, Paint–Related Materials, and Inks.

 

I was shipping inks to a pen'n'ink friend in Portland, Oregon late last year, so I printed the relevant regulations to bring to the post office.  After a moment of confusion, the clerk smiled very nicely and asked if I would leave the printout for her.  She took the printout, punched holes in it, and put it in her personal reference binder for postal issues.  She then thanked me for bringing the materials.

 

Sometimes, we can have good experiences despite the obstacles.

 

 

 

John P.

[XYZZY]

2 hours ago, PJohnP said:

Things are a far cry from a decade back.  Shipping inks in the US has become not only expensive , but difficult with restrictions on liquids in the mail.  Some post offices in the United States will flatly refuse to mail them, although it is permitted.  Shipping typically only goes by ground now through the postal service.

 

However...  one needs to have everything lined-up correctly.

 

The relevant requirements for mailing ink in the United States can be found here :

 

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_021.htm

 

Look at section 343.26 Paints, Paint–Related Materials, and Inks.

 

I was shipping inks to a pen'n'ink friend in Portland, Oregon late last year, so I printed the relevant regulations to bring to the post office.  After a moment of confusion, the clerk smiled very nicely and asked if I would leave the printout for her.  She took the printout, punched holes in it, and put it in her personal reference binder for postal issues.  She then thanked me for bringing the materials.

 

Sometimes, we can have good experiences despite the obstacles.

 

 

 

John P.

Section 343 is for "Flammable and Combustible Liquids", which i doubt applies to fountain pen inks.  But I guess if those requirements are acceptable for flammable ink then they ought to be good enough for non flammable ink, too.

[PJohnP]

45 minutes ago, XYZZY said:

Section 343 is for "Flammable and Combustible Liquids", which i doubt applies to fountain pen inks.  But I guess if those requirements are acceptable for flammable ink then they ought to be good enough for non flammable ink, too.

 

Hurm.  This is a complicated discussion.  I make an apology for lecturing on this point, but I'll try to drop a humourous reference in here and there...

 

 

 

With respect, please look down at the cross referenced section 451.3 Packaging and Marking * listed in sub-section 343.26.   

 

Note: Inks that do not possess any hazardous characteristics are not regulated as hazardous materials and are mailable if properly prepared under the standards for packaging liquids in 451.3 and DMM 601.3.4.

 

Inks are not otherwise overtly referenced for shipping discussions in other postal regs.  This cross reference may not be obvious on first read of sub-section 343.26.  I'll freely admit that such regulatory crossovers are cryptic at best.  I probably should have also included the referenced section as well in my initial response. However, such referencing is common within government regulations.  After decades of professional work around these things, I'm accustomed to looking at all of the referenced material in a regulatory citation.  If you do a search on the reference to DMM 601.3.4, you'll find it also links to shipping toxics and liquors.  I wouldn't recommend going down that avenue with a postal clerk.

 

There is a decent reason to have 343.26 at hand in discussions.

 

Since there is no specific reference in sub-section 453.1 to inks, but only "paints", it makes matters less obvious.  Some clerks will then fall back on the "no liquids in the mail" response **.  The discussions in 451.3 on steel pails, friction-top closures etc. don't much help those of us with small glass or plastic vials of ink. 

 

If one goes in with these printed materials at hand, my experience has been that this will usually carry the day for the ink-mailing pen user.  I would imagine that major on-line ink sellers/stores have been able to navigate this process for some time, but most of us are mailing inks less frequently.  I think almost every person in the US sending inks is familiar with the question posed at a post office desk, "Any liquids in this package ?", where the clerks mostly expect an automatic "No" answer.  Some clerks get a bit flustered at an unexpected "Yes" answer in my observation.

 

This whole area is quite a "rabbit hole" to use a Carrollian metaphor.  If folks want to go through the "one pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small" to use the Jefferson Airplane Carrollian reference, here are two good starting points :

 

https://www.usps.com/ship/shipping-restrictions.htm

 

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/index.htm

 

I have no comment to make about "the ones that Mother gives you" at all.  Chasing regulations is not as fun as chasing rabbits.

 

 

 

Having USPS specific instructions on how to deal with the ink sample shipping has meant (somewhat) easier interactions, and one very nice one.  I would add the note that the most recent shipment that I made had bottles of ink as well as cartridges, so the box was larger than ones our Australian colleagues were showing in their posts.  In years gone by, I exchanged sample inks in vials with FPN members with greater ease.

 

I'm also confident in commenting that issues with shipping inks will vary a lot by post office, city, and state.  I would hope that most people never run into any problems at all.  <warm smile>

 

 

 

John P.

 

* That referenced section also has discussions on "cremated remains", so it's not one section that's very obvious for casual readers as applying to inks !

 

** A number of the clerks are savvy enough to manage the correct form of mailing, I might add, but not quite all.

[XYZZY]

35 minutes ago, PJohnP said:

 

Hurm.  This is a complicated discussion.  I make an apology for lecturing on this point, but I'll try to drop a humourous reference in here and there...

 

 

 

With respect, please look down at the cross referenced section 451.3 Packaging and Marking * listed in sub-section 343.26.   

 

Note: Inks that do not possess any hazardous characteristics are not regulated as hazardous materials and are mailable if properly prepared under the standards for packaging liquids in 451.3 and DMM 601.3.4.

 

Inks are not otherwise overtly referenced for shipping discussions in other postal regs.  This cross reference may not be obvious on first read of sub-section 343.26.  I'll freely admit that such regulatory crossovers are cryptic at best.  I probably should have also included the referenced section as well in my initial response. However, such referencing is common within government regulations.  After decades of professional work around these things, I'm accustomed to looking at all of the referenced material in a regulatory citation.  If you do a search on the reference to DMM 601.3.4, you'll find it also links to shipping toxics and liquors.  I wouldn't recommend going down that avenue with a postal clerk.

 

There is a decent reason to have 343.26 at hand in discussions.

 

Since there is no specific reference in sub-section 453.1 to inks, but only "paints", it makes matters less obvious.  Some clerks will then fall back on the "no liquids in the mail" response **.  The discussions in 451.3 on steel pails, friction-top closures etc. don't much help those of us with small glass or plastic vials of ink. 

 

If one goes in with these printed materials at hand, my experience has been that this will usually carry the day for the ink-mailing pen user.  I would imagine that major on-line ink sellers/stores have been able to navigate this process for some time, but most of us are mailing inks less frequently.  I think almost every person in the US sending inks is familiar with the question posed at a post office desk, "Any liquids in this package ?", where the clerks mostly expect an automatic "No" answer.  Some clerks get a bit flustered at an unexpected "Yes" answer in my observation.

 

This whole area is quite a "rabbit hole" to use a Carrollian metaphor.  If folks want to go through the "one pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small" to use the Jefferson Airplane Carrollian reference, here are two good starting points :

 

https://www.usps.com/ship/shipping-restrictions.htm

 

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/index.htm

 

I have no comment to make about "the ones that Mother gives you" at all.  Chasing regulations is not as fun as chasing rabbits.

 

 

 

Having USPS specific instructions on how to deal with the ink sample shipping has meant (somewhat) easier interactions, and one very nice one.  I would add the note that the most recent shipment that I made had bottles of ink as well as cartridges, so the box was larger than ones our Australian colleagues were showing in their posts.  In years gone by, I exchanged sample inks in vials with FPN members with greater ease.

 

I'm also confident in commenting that issues with shipping inks will vary a lot by post office, city, and state.  I would hope that most people never run into any problems at all.  <warm smile>

 

 

 

John P.

 

* That referenced section also has discussions on "cremated remains", so it's not one section that's very obvious for casual readers as applying to inks !

 

** A number of the clerks are savvy enough to manage the correct form of mailing, I might add, but not quite all.

Yes, I had already seen the multiple references.

 

Now that you point out, I buy the logic that the thing you posted is a good place to start since it does indeed mention ink explicitly.  Even if you don't convince them your ink is non-flammable (and I suspect that's a coin toss), it basically says you can ship ink in a cushioned leak proof package.  And the way most of us in the hobby go nuts on packaging, it's not a very high bar.

 

So thank you for posting that link. I think personally I might just go in with the other two sections as well, but start where you did.

[PJohnP]

 

6 minutes ago, XYZZY said:

Yes, I had already seen the multiple references.

 

Now that you point out, I buy the logic that the thing you posted is a good place to start since it does indeed mention ink explicitly.  Even if you don't convince them your ink is non-flammable (and I suspect that's a coin toss), it basically says you can ship ink in a cushioned leak proof package.  And the way most of us in the hobby go nuts on packaging, it's not a very high bar.

 

So thank you for posting that link. I think personally I might just go in with the other two sections as well, but start where you did.

 

You are most welcome.  At least I warned you I would lecture.  Deep chuckle. 

 

Is it paranoid to prepare for the "worst possible consequence" or prudent ?  As an industrial troubleshooter for many years, I definitely fall into the latter category !  Of course, it's not that those two categories are mutually exclusive...

 

When I went to the USPS office, I had the answers in hand about screw tops closed the requisite number of turns, doubly leak proof layers, absorbent materials, and so forth.  I think the clerk saw that I was pretty well prepared with the printouts, and didn't bother to ask too much else.  <arched eyebrow>

 

The world sure is a peculiar place, but often fun. *

 

 

 

John P.

 

*  I have Molly Tuttle and her band Golden Highway on now playing White Rabbit.  What the dormouse said...  but with ink.

[XYZZY]

No worries. You're preaching to the choir regarding being prepared for things going sideways. 
 

Considering what we pay in postal rates and wages to the workers, we get great value for the money. If that job required people who could remember and correctly apply all the regulations, then we could not afford the service.  I don't have a problem having a conversation with them about it.

 

I have never heard of Molly Tuttle, but +1 for anybody channeling White Rabbit and Gracie Slick.😉

[PJohnP]

1 minute ago, XYZZY said:

Considering what we pay in postal rates and wages to the workers, we get great value for the money. If that job required people who could remember and correctly apply all the regulations, then we could not afford the service.  I don't have a problem having a conversation with them about it.

 

I have never heard of Molly Turtle, but +1 for anybody channeling White Rabbit and Gracie Slick.😉

 

 

The United States Postal Service is one of the best "bang-for-buck" government entities to be found anywhere.  I might not always be excited about some of the things that have gone on with the USPS this last number of years, but I'm a big fan of the USPS.

 

There a couple of artists like Molly Tuttle and Billy Strings who I've taken to over the last few years.  I'm not deeply steeped in the area of bluegrass music, but I find them remarkable.  Although I'm not one of those people who spend a lot of time poring over YouTube, it has offered opportunities to learn more about newer artists.

 

As for White Rabbit, I'm (just) old enough to remember Jefferson Airplane before they became Hot Tuna and Jefferson Starship.  There have been a fair number of covers of WR, but Grace Slick set an incredibly high standard for the vocal.

 

 

 

John P.

[amberleadavis]

@HalloweenHJB  If you organize it, I am willing to contribute.

[Shannon]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:57 PM, HalloweenHJB said:

 

Let me take a look at my collection, and see what I find for you.  I'll send a PM for address.  Yes?

 

 

Yes!

[dragondazd]

Can someone give me a ballpark for the cost of shipping a couple standard vials?

 

I have some oblation press ink to share.

 

[HalloweenHJB]

I have a few bottles to share with those who are interested in fabulous old-school inky swap!  I have 12 bottles of various sizes and various fullness —and various inky delightfulness.  

 

Let's limit the requests to a maximum of three (3);  first requested, first confirmed.  Be sure to send me your mailing address in a private message, and I'll send them off next week.  Agreed?

 

And the choices are... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

QUICK NOTES:  PenBBS Bloom is a SHIMMERING ink (gold sparkles);  the two baby Colorverse inks are ¾ full —so about 10 ml.  

 

Best,

HalloweenHJB

 

 

[PithyProlix]

2 hours ago, HalloweenHJB said:

I have a few bottles to share with those who are interested in fabulous old-school inky swap!  I have 12 bottles of various sizes and various fullness —and various inky delightfulness.  

 

Let's limit the requests to a maximum of three (3);  first requested, first confirmed.  Be sure to send me your mailing address in a private message, and I'll send them off next week.  Agreed?

 

And the choices are... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

QUICK NOTES:  PenBBS Bloom is a SHIMMERING ink (gold sparkles);  the two baby Colorverse inks are ¾ full —so about 10 ml.  

 

Best,

HalloweenHJB

 

 

 

☺️ That's very generous. And some very interesting inks!