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The Myth of the Wet Noodle


LoveBigPensAndCannotLie

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So, I've been collecting vintage pens for a bit now and I have all sorts, including a fair amount of pens and nibs from the era where "wet noodle" type nibs were made. I have a few very flexible nibs, some medium flex, some closer to semi-flex, and one observation I've made is that the few nibs in my collection that I could call "wet noodle" (the ones that open up at literally the lightest touch, as soon as you touch the paper) are ones that are damaged.

 

Meaning, they were splayed at some point and repaired but they never really went back to their original tightly coiled springiness, making them easier to open (hence the wet noodle) and easier to "re-splay." Of course this could be a chicken and the egg type of problem where the nib was originally very flexible and delicate and this made it more likely that people damaged them. But I am leaning towards my initial observation that most of these wet noodle nibs are simply damaged/splayed nibs.

 

For people who have more extensive knowledge of antique nibs, am I totally off? Are there nibs that are "wet noodle" that are as designed (and not super flexible as a result of being splayed)? I suppose this also depends on one's definition of a "wet noodle" nib.

 

 

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I've watched 'tube videos of someone writing with wet noodles.  This is a thing of beauty to behold.  The nib dances in the master's hand, leaving a series of elegant letters, spreading and springing back with each stroke.

 

They existed.  For certain.

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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Do you have a link? I'd be curious to see. I've seen some videos that were posted several years ago (by people selling the pens) and they seemed freshly inked/dipped rather than writing you'd get with normal everyday performance.

 

I have several pens that open very wide with great snapback, but they take a bit of pressure. When I hear wet noodle, my impression is of a pen that opens up with almost a feather touch on paper. And I have a few nibs like this, but all of these nibs that I have are slightly splayed or damaged in some way that makes them more flexible.

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  On 12/12/2022 at 12:40 AM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

Do you have a link? I'd be curious to see. I've seen some videos that were posted several years ago (by people selling the pens) and they seemed freshly inked/dipped rather than writing you'd get with normal everyday performance.

 

I have several pens that open very wide with great snapback, but they take a bit of pressure. When I hear wet noodle, my impression is of a pen that opens up with almost a feather touch on paper. And I have a few nibs like this, but all of these nibs that I have are slightly splayed or damaged in some way that makes them more flexible.

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I wish I did have a link.  It was several years ago, and really something.  And the pens were NOT for sale.  

 

A wet noodle should indeed open at a feather touch.  I have one I bought a lonnng time ago at a pen show for ten bucks, and it's a mis-matched nib on an old eyedropper pen. 

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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  On 12/12/2022 at 12:54 AM, Sailor Kenshin said:

I have one I bought a lonnng time ago at a pen show for ten bucks, and it's a mis-matched nib on an old eyedropper pen. 

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Wow, that seems like a killer deal. Definitely something you'd have to buy in person, it's really hard to tell from a listing how flexible a pen is because everyone has a different definition of what flexible is. And wet noodle too, a nib could be super flexible and not be a wet noodle. 

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Just for curiosity's sake, I looked for the video, couldn't find it.  The man who filmed it was or is a member here, and there was no fifteen minutes of his face on-camera wasting time.  Just the hand, and the pen.

 

I see what you mean about the modern videos.  Yuck.  And a modern pen isn't really flex either, unless you are Thor.

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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  On 12/12/2022 at 2:31 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

And a modern pen isn't really flex either, unless you are Thor.

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I forgot where I saw this saying but I think it's hilarious - every nib is a flex nib, once.

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  On 12/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

I forgot where I saw this saying but I think it's hilarious - every nib is a flex nib, once.

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😜 👍🏻

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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Most of my superflex nibs are 5-6 X tine spread.,,,,Easy Full Flex, much lighter than semi-flex.

 

I rate superflex as 'easy full flex', then wet noodle and finally the scarcer than hen's teeth 'weak kneed wet noodle'. .

I have three 'wet noodles'. one is a two stage 7x Nib, the other a single stage 6 X, both of them are from a Waterman 52. My best wet noodle is a Soennecken one, on a 'no name' pen, with I think is a Soenecken cap..............those are middle third at best in the dip pen nibs.

 

 

The term weak kneed wet noodle was invented by the English nib grinder John Swoboda(sp?) It took me well over half a decade after I heard the term to run into my first one.

 

I saw and felt a '20's MB Safety Pen at a live auction near a decade ago. It had a tine that was missing tipping. But when put to my thumb nail, it made my wet noodles look uncooked.

 

My wife lucked into a free one at a street flea market....for spare parts. Francis cleaned it up and put a new gasket on it.

It is in the middle of the dip pen nib range..................the far end of flex where an Earthquake in California makes the nib flex is the Hunt 99-100-101 which I have,  the renown Gillette 303/404 and Leonard nibs I don't have.

 

cj3yiXw.jpgtC9B2B4.jpg?1

0vcaAsk.jpg# 6 Simplo nib.

lnHrQjX.jpg

I don't do spread the nib pictures and you'd not know how much pressure I used.

 

A Regular flex nib/=Japanese 'soft' when well mashed will spread it's tines 3X a light down stroke. One can not right with one of those nibs mashed out to 3 X.

Semi-flex takes half of that pressure to reach 3 X & the ham fisted....:blush: can write with it maxed. It took me some 3-6 weeks to get so I wasn't maxing the nib all the time.

Maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

This superflex rating is mostly for noobies to superflex. Mauricio disagrees with my system. :thumbup: but he deals in superflex pens. The more superflex pens one has the more the borders blur.

This at least lets you know the difference between horseshoe and hand grenades.

 

Superflex... 4x some as in few, mostly 5-6 X....very seldom 7 X ..... unless someone is doing nib abuse and is trying to sell a sprung nib on you Tube or Ebay. I'd guess I have 10-12 superflex nibbed pens of all three flex rates. (gathered haphazardly on the whole by sheer luck....out side the two Waterman 52's...and not all 52's are wet noodles or even superflex.) Well I don't do spread sheets so could be off a pen or two.

For me I lucked out and my superflex nibs are not mushy. One respectable poster has mushy wet noodles and that was part of his description of the term wet noodle.

 

Those who can write....not me....are more interested in fast snapback to a thin line than how fat they can make the nib write.

 

Easy Full Flex needs half the pressure of a maxi....or 1/8th the pressure of a regular flex.

 

Wet Noodle half of that pressure  of an Easy Full Flex or 1/16th the pressure of maxing a regular flex.

 

I've not decided if my Weak Kneed Wet Noodle is 1/32 or 1/64th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.  But it makes my wet noodles look uncooked.

I've threatened to learn how to write with my wet noodles, even before i lucked into my Weak Kneed Wet Noodle....lying to oneself can become a habit, when one is lazy.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

Ransom Bucket cost me many of my pictures taken by a poor camera that was finally tossed. Luckily, the Chicken Scratch pictures also vanished.

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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  On 12/18/2022 at 10:38 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Most of my superflex nibs are 5-6 X tine spread.,,,,Easy Full Flex, much lighter than semi-flex.

 

I rate superflex as 'easy full flex', then wet noodle and finally the scarcer than hen's teeth 'weak kneed wet noodle'. .

I have three 'wet noodles'. one is a two stage 7x Nib, the other a single stage 6 X, both of them are from a Waterman 52. My best wet noodle is a Soennecken one, on a 'no name' pen, with I think is a Soenecken cap..............those are middle third at best in the dip pen nibs.

 

 

The term weak kneed wet noodle was invented by the English nib grinder John Swoboda(sp?) It took me well over half a decade after I heard the term to run into my first one.

 

I saw and felt a '20's MB Safety Pen at a live auction near a decade ago. It had a tine that was missing tipping. But when put to my thumb nail, it made my wet noodles look uncooked.

 

My wife lucked into a free one at a street flea market....for spare parts. Francis cleaned it up and put a new gasket on it.

It is in the middle of the dip pen nib range..................the far end of flex where an Earthquake in California makes the nib flex is the Hunt 99-100-101 which I have,  the renown Gillette 303/404 and Leonard nibs I don't have.

 

cj3yiXw.jpgtC9B2B4.jpg?1

0vcaAsk.jpg# 6 Simplo nib.

lnHrQjX.jpg

I don't do spread the nib pictures and you'd not know how much pressure I used.

 

A Regular flex nib/=Japanese 'soft' when well mashed will spread it's tines 3X a light down stroke. One can not right with one of those nibs mashed out to 3 X.

Semi-flex takes half of that pressure to reach 3 X & the ham fisted....:blush: can write with it maxed. It took me some 3-6 weeks to get so I wasn't maxing the nib all the time.

Maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.

 

This superflex rating is mostly for noobies to superflex. Mauricio disagrees with my system. :thumbup: but he deals in superflex pens. The more superflex pens one has the more the borders blur.

This at least lets you know the difference between horseshoe and hand grenades.

 

Superflex... 4x some as in few, mostly 5-6 X....very seldom 7 X ..... unless someone is doing nib abuse and is trying to sell a sprung nib on you Tube or Ebay. I'd guess I have 10-12 superflex nibbed pens of all three flex rates. (gathered haphazardly on the whole by sheer luck....out side the two Waterman 52's...and not all 52's are wet noodles or even superflex.) Well I don't do spread sheets so could be off a pen or two.

For me I lucked out and my superflex nibs are not mushy. One respectable poster has mushy wet noodles and that was part of his description of the term wet noodle.

 

Those who can write....not me....are more interested in fast snapback to a thin line than how fat they can make the nib write.

 

Easy Full Flex needs half the pressure of a maxi....or 1/8th the pressure of a regular flex.

 

Wet Noodle half of that pressure  of an Easy Full Flex or 1/16th the pressure of maxing a regular flex.

 

I've not decided if my Weak Kneed Wet Noodle is 1/32 or 1/64th the pressure needed to max a regular flex.  But it makes my wet noodles look uncooked.

I've threatened to learn how to write with my wet noodles, even before i lucked into my Weak Kneed Wet Noodle....lying to oneself can become a habit, when one is lazy.

Expand  

Here we would need to be careful to grade the specific pressure that is being used to induce flex in the nib.  To go with a grading system like this one would have to have a scientifically reproducible methodology to measure the pressure to induce the degree of flex indicated.  One needs to bear in mind that when you are measuring something as delicate as this one individual to another there is no real way to standardize other than to use a mechanistic approach which allows precise assessment of specific pressures. Absent that everything is completely subjective. Writing with a fountain pen is most definitely a subjective experience. To the author, do you really belive it can be compartmentalized in the manner you put forward?

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  On 12/21/2022 at 3:43 PM, DiveDr said:

Absent that everything is completely subjective. Writing with a fountain pen is most definitely a subjective experience. To the author, do you really belive it can be compartmentalized in the manner you put forward?

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This is my biggest problem with buying "flex" pens online. One person's semi-flex is another's flex, another's wet noodle is someone's "normal" flex. And even if you have similar ideas of what "flexible" means, everyone has a slightly different idea of how hard these nibs should be pushed. Makes buying these very tricky if it's not in person.

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There was a suggestion years ago about using a balance to measure the pressure as "weight" applied and I seem to remember also of a way to ensure pens were at the same angle during the measure.

 

I also seem to remember the original suggestion started at a Spanish, Italian or French fountain pen forum.

 

Still, again from recollections, there were several confounding variables that would need to be taken care of, but as a starter, that seems to me a not too bad initial approximation.

 

But one would need first to standardize the procedure in a simple enough way to be easily reproducible, and then ask sellers to give their measure in that scale. I would bet most would ignore it, but with persistence and in due time, I would also bet many might end up using it if they perceive it as a way to get more customers.

 

One can only dream... maybe one day even the big makers would join :D

If you are to be ephemeral, leave a good scent.

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  On 12/21/2022 at 7:12 PM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

 

This is my biggest problem with buying "flex" pens online. One person's semi-flex is another's flex, another's wet noodle is someone's "normal" flex. And even if you have similar ideas of what "flexible" means, everyone has a slightly different idea of how hard these nibs should be pushed. Makes buying these very tricky if it's not in person.

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I MIGHT have found one of those older flex writing videos (with pens no one is selling).  I'll have to see if I can get it to link here.

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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  On 12/21/2022 at 11:16 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

One person's semi-flex is another's flex, another's wet noodle is someone's "normal" flex.

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Unless someone uses only dip pens, no wet noodle is anyone's 'normal' flex.

 

Not really...........if one reads there are a couple of folks with systems.....me,:rolleyes: and for superflex...Mauricio has a great blog.

 

My superflex rating is for those new to superflex....more so than than those having 10 or so of the three superflex rates detailed..

 

Mauricio thinks my system for superflex a bit lacking in it defines in harder borders, and he's right.** But he deals in superflex; so sees much bluring of borders. My system is 'set' to let the noobies know the difference between Easy Full Flex and Wet Noodles. (regular flex, semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex, works up to it.)

 

In I've only seen two Weak Kneed Wet Noodles (The term was invented by the English nib grinder John Swoboda(sp)); both early MB Safety pen nibs (one a decade ago in a live auction....& have one (pre'23 Simplo nibbed pens), it is nothing to worry about.

 

** I have a couple nibs that are almost wet noodles..........with a bit more ease of flex in the Easy Full flex rating than most of the others.............but when one of the three wet noodles are bought out, it/they don't quite make the jump to wet noodle. 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The main thing one has to have to understand any flex rates is a regular flex nib is needed as the base....like some Esterbrooks; most/all Wearevers, some '50-70's Shaffers, Pelikan 200/ semi-vintage 400.........Japanese 'soft' is the other equivalent.

From there my system goes down half less pressure to max the nib in each flex rate....but if you don't have a regular flex/Japanese Soft.....then you have to find some other fella's system to find out if you have a semi-flex.....maxi-semi-flex or even Easy Full Flex (first stage of superflex).

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

Ransom Bucket cost me many of my pictures taken by a poor camera that was finally tossed. Luckily, the Chicken Scratch pictures also vanished.

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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  On 12/21/2022 at 8:01 PM, txomsy said:

There was a suggestion years ago about using a balance to measure the pressure as "weight" applied and I seem to remember also of a way to ensure pens were at the same angle during the measure.

 

I also seem to remember the original suggestion started at a Spanish, Italian or French fountain pen forum.

 

Still, again from recollections, there were several confounding variables that would need to be taken care of, but as a starter, that seems to me a not too bad initial approximation.

 

But one would need first to standardize the procedure in a simple enough way to be easily reproducible, and then ask sellers to give their measure in that scale. I would bet most would ignore it, but with persistence and in due time, I would also bet many might end up using it if they perceive it as a way to get more customers.

 

One can only dream... maybe one day even the big makers would join :D

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The only way that I can figure to do it correctly is similar to the way that we measure floor reaction forces for people walking with prosthetic limbs, amputees. It's called a floor reaction plate. One would have to fabricate something like this that can measure very small forces, tare it so that the paper would not influence the measurement and then measure the force of writing against line width. This would give a very accurate assessment of how much pressure was required to flex a nib to produce what line width.  It would not be an inexpensive experiment!😁🤣😁

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  On 12/21/2022 at 11:45 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Unless someone uses only dip pens, no wet noodle is anyone's 'normal' flex.

 

Not really...........if one reads there are a couple of folks with systems.....me,:rolleyes: and for superflex...Mauricio has a great blog.

 

My superflex rating is for those new to superflex....more so than than those having 10 or so of the three superflex rates detailed..

 

Mauricio thinks my system for superflex a bit lacking in it defines in harder borders, and he's right.** But he deals in superflex; so sees much bluring of borders. My system is 'set' to let the noobies know the difference between Easy Full Flex and Wet Noodles. (regular flex, semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex, works up to it.)

 

In I've only seen two Weak Kneed Wet Noodles (The term was invented by the English nib grinder John Swoboda(sp)); both early MB Safety pen nibs (one a decade ago in a live auction....& have one (pre'23 Simplo nibbed pens), it is nothing to worry about.

 

** I have a couple nibs that are almost wet noodles..........with a bit more ease of flex in the Easy Full flex rating than most of the others.............but when one of the three wet noodles are bought out, it/they don't quite make the jump to wet noodle. 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The main thing one has to have to understand any flex rates is a regular flex nib is needed as the base....like some Esterbrooks; most/all Wearevers, some '50-70's Shaffers, Pelikan 200/ semi-vintage 400.........Japanese 'soft' is the other equivalent.

From there my system goes down half less pressure to max the nib in each flex rate....but if you don't have a regular flex/Japanese Soft.....then you have to find some other fella's system to find out if you have a semi-flex.....maxi-semi-flex or even Easy Full Flex (first stage of superflex).

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I didn't post what you quoted.

My latest ebook.   And not just for Halloween!
 

My other pen is a Montblanc.

 

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I think he quoted the wrong person, I said that and I stand by it. I've seen some people post videos of nibs they claim are "super flex" or "wet noodle" and it looks like ordinary flex to me, often with a primed feed. At the end of the day, superflex, wet noodle, semi-flex, "easy full flex," and maxi-semi-flex are not at all scientific terms and don't have definitive measures.

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  On 12/21/2022 at 7:12 PM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

 

This is my biggest problem with buying "flex" pens online. One person's semi-flex is another's flex, another's wet noodle is someone's "normal" flex. And even if you have similar ideas of what "flexible" means, everyone has a slightly different idea of how hard these nibs should be pushed. Makes buying these very tricky if it's not in person.

Expand  
  On 12/22/2022 at 1:03 AM, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

I think he quoted the wrong person, I said that and I stand by it. I've seen some people post videos of nibs they claim are "super flex" or "wet noodle" and it looks like ordinary flex to me, often with a primed feed. At the end of the day, superflex, wet noodle, semi-flex, "easy full flex," and maxi-semi-flex are not at all scientific terms and don't have definitive measures.

Expand  

 

 

not only flex nibs has this 'problem'.  I always see when people review their pen, "the nib is a bit bouncy", "the nib is slightly springly", "it had a little bit of flex".  When I got chance to try those pen, I don't feel particularly different in terms of 'softness' / 'flexness'.  To me they just don't flex at all.

 

So I conclude that this must be because everyone's different writing pressure.  I think of myself as writing with very light pressure.  The people who says that so and so nib is springy, must have heavier writing pressure than me.  Unless there's a reliable way to tell how much newtons are being pressed, at what angle, etc, there's just no way to tell.  Everyone's idea of 'light pressure', 'slightly', are just gonna be different.  

 

The same applies to nib smoothness and feedback.

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  On 12/22/2022 at 1:49 AM, AceNinja said:

I think of myself as writing with very light pressure.  The people who says that so and so nib is springy, must have heavier writing pressure than me.  Unless there's a reliable way to tell how much newtons are being pressed, at what angle, etc, there's just no way to tell. 

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It wouldn't matter — or wouldn't be sufficient — anyway even if they showed a static snapshot of curvature of the tines (for ‘soft’ or ‘bouncy’), or how far the tines splayed laterally (for ‘flex’), complete with a numeric figure for the force applied to achieve it. Nobody is going to model the dynamic response of the nib to varying pressure (by amount, as well as the rate of change) and present it as a table of figures, curve on a graph, or mathematical equations; and, even if they did, the meaning and significance of such would be lost on the majority of readers/viewers perusing or browsing the freely-offered ‘amateur’ material online. I'd even contend that a lot of ‘interested’ folk would find such a precise and/or comprehensive description, as opposed to loose use of language, to be a turn-off, because it isn't for idle curiosity, effortless entertainment, or the faint of heart.

 

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct, and valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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  On 12/22/2022 at 3:28 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

It wouldn't matter — or wouldn't be sufficient — anyway even if they showed up a static snapshot of curvature of the tines (for ‘soft’ or ‘bouncy’), or how far the tines splayed laterally (for ‘flex’), complete with a numeric figure for the force applied to achieve that anyway. Nobody is going to model the dynamic response of the nib to varying pressure (by amount, as well as the rate of change) and present it as a table of figures, curve on a graph, or mathematical equations; and, even if they did, the meaning and significance of such would be lost on the majority of readers/viewers perusing or browsing the freely-offered ‘amateur’ material online. I'd even contend that a lot of ‘interested’ folk would find such a precise and/or comprehensive description, as opposed to loose use of language, to be a turn-off, because it isn't for idle curiosity, effortless entertainment, or the faint of heart.

 

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Lovely comments!  Completely agree, way too much mathematic gymnastics for the casual mind.  It could be done with a force reaction plate however, what purpose would it serve?  Who would use or profit in any way from the exercise.  Writing is an art in both crafting the language and putting it to paper.  The subjective experience of writing with a fountain pen is unique to the individual holding the pen at that moment in time.  I have hundreds of pens, two copies of the same pen may feel different to my hand.  Beauty, as they say, is after all, in the eye of the beholder...

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