What happens when different inks dry out in your pens

[A Smug Dill]

In preparation for Pelikan Hub 2022 in a few hours, I've been looking through some long-untouched pens, in the 78-pen case where I keep (a portion of) my steel-nibbed pens that ”deserve better” than to stand in a pen cup. Among them are some HongDian pens with snap caps and no.26 (i.e. 26mm in length, and of which some fellow fountain pen enthusiasts may think of as #5 for some strange reason) nibs; and, as much as I like those pens at that general price range, none of them will retain more than 3% volume of an ink cartridge or converter's fill after, say, about three months of being undisturbed.

 

Two of them renewed my observations from earlier experience but of which I made no explicit written note anywhere:

• Diamine Registrar's Ink, once dried, will leave a coat of black on plastic and some other materials. The walls of the (refilled-at-home) ink cartridge was completely opaque, and neither warm water nor ammonia solution (after I washed out all the possibly acidic substance that would come off with flushing), nor ten minutes of ultrasonic cleaning, will remove enough of it to let any light through. It took commercial fountain pen nib cleaning solution and scrubbing with a very fine cylindrical cleaning brush (for test tubes and such) to remove the ‘soot’. The polished stainless steel nib was also ‘stained’, and even rubbing with detergent and (the almost callused) rough skin on my thumb could not remove the black and blue bits completely, although a Sunshine cloth did the job eventually. I've had that happen in a rather more expensive pen previously, although I didn't some zealous scrub or polish the ruthenium-coated nib on that.
• Lamy Benitoite, once dried, will have a glue-like effect on the components with which it came into contact, although it's not as bad as TWSBI Blue-Black in that respect. The spring inside the HongDian converter was stuck to the piston plug, which itself could not readily move forward past where the ink has dried; soaking restored movement eventually, but ultrasonic cleaning (or mechanical scrubbing, I suppose) was required to remove the build-up. That ink has previously made the piston motion in my Lamy 2000 Bauhaus quite stiff, even though the ink never fully dried inside the pen; and I had to disassemble to pen to service the piston mechanism and interior of the ink reservoir, before the pen would work properly again.

 

No such issues with Rohrer & Klingner Sepia and Pilot Iroshizuku Kiri-same inks; they cleaned out easily after soaking and flushing with warm water.

 

What are your experiences with (these or) other inks?

 

[txomsy]

That makes sense, as Registrar ink is expected to stain indelibly.

 

OTOH, the only inks I have noticed a permanent or difficult to remove stain in cartridges or ink windows are red inks (non-permanent) and Baystate Blue. The later washes with diluted bleach.

 

Considering that I have a strong preference for permanent inks, most of which are IG, and that i have sometimes left pens unused for very long periods, often to the point of drying and then sometimes years, it is remarkable that I haven't noticed similar problems. Maybe I am too dull or non-demanding or lucky.

 

The only problematic case I remember is a MB pen I got second hand and that had dried ink that took me very, very, very long to clean, and even then I finally had to run an xacto knife over the ink channel to make it work again (it was a 342G with friction nib/feeder).

 

Somewhat difficult to clean inks are oversaturated inks like OS nitrogen, but with some patience they end up washing out.

 

Come to think of it, maybe it has to do with me almost never using cartridges and preferring piston fillers or converters. Actually, now that I remember, the sac in my Liliput converter (white silicon originally) seems permanently stained in blue, possibly by MB Permanent Blue or Polar Blue, I do not know (was years ago), and is totally opaque now.

 

So maybe it had to do with using a specific converter?

 

Even so, I have unused converters dry out after decades of storage... but at least those (Pelikan, Parker and Waterman, I think) would have the dried ink in one side or at the bottom (not everywhere) and would wash out clean with tap water pressure injected with a syringe (I'd wash them to reuse them after refilling).

[inkstainedruth]

@A Smug Dill  Well, your initial mistake was to use an ammonia based flush.  Iron gall inks, like Diamine Registrars, are very acidic, and have a very low pH.  You would have done better if you'd used an acidic solution with white household vinegar (some people used crushed up vitamin C tablets, I think).  There was someone on FPN who was a chemist, and also recommended doing an ammonia flush AFTER flushing out the vinegar flush with water, and then flushing that out with water, and I've found that works well.  

Not sure if using that after all you've done would help at this point, sorry.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, inkstainedruth said:

@A Smug Dill  Well, your initial mistake was to use an ammonia based flush.  Iron gall inks, like Diamine Registrars, are very acidic, 

 

Hmmm? All the parts that were in contact with Diamine Registrar's Ink were soaked in and flushed with plain warm water, and put through at least two ultrasonic cleaning cycles, prior to my using any other non-chemically-inert cleaning solution on the solid residue. What wouldn't dissolve into water cannot be acidic in solid state; and the point of avoiding mixing acids and bases is that they may precipitate solid salts and generate heat and gases in the process.

 

If ammonia solution could dissolve what was stubbornly stuck to the walls of the converter, to then precipitate out of the solution, it would be perfectly fine as I could then flush the stuff out.

 

[Lithium466]

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is said to be good to clean iron gall inks residues. As I never tried a more potent IG ink than Platinum blue-black, I can't confirm if that is true or not.

[txomsy]

14 hours ago, txomsy said:

So maybe it had to do with using a specific converter?

 

Even so, I have unused converters dry out after decades of storage... but at least those (Pelikan, Parker and Waterman, I think) would have the dried ink in one side or at the bottom (not everywhere) and would wash out clean with tap water pressure injected with a syringe (I'd wash them to reuse them after refilling).

 

Sorry, I'm in the middle of candidate selection and related paperwork and didn't notice. Of course, all references to "converter" above should be to "cartridge".

 

I have found that staining tends to be more frequent and difficult to clean in "vegetable resin" piston filler pens (such as the Ink Creeper or some cheap Indian pens from FPR). These do also evaporate faster (sometimes in a few days or a week), so it possibly might seem to potentially suggest that it is not just the ink, but also the cartridge, converter or pen plastic (in pens with ink window) that may be playing out here.

 

I.e. would it be possible that some parts (cartridge, converter, ink window...) are made in cheaper plastics/resins/materials that are more permeable, not just to water, but also to elements diluted in it in an ink, and so not just water, but also pigments may be imbibed into the walls and thusly become more difficult to clean?

 

That might hypothetically explain why a soluble pigment ink stains where a nano-pigment ink does not.

 

It would not explain the stains in the nib, but there are also different qualities in nib materials.

 

Or it could be a totally different issue.

 

Still, it is good to know and have a list of difficult-to-clean inks. Good idea and kudos on getting this rolling.

[InesF]

13 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

... What wouldn't dissolve into water cannot be acidic in solid state ...

Sorry to read about troubles with pen cleaning,@A Smug Dill.

 

Citric acid can be used as a comparably concentrated liquid to dissolve metal precipitations. This needs time and iron oxides are especially nasty and very hard to dissolve again. Expect to need month.

 

Another option, more aggressive (but completely safe for fountain pens) is a ca. 20g/L solution of EDTA (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) in deionized water. Again, give it time. I once dissolved a mixed metal precipitate which could not be removed mechanically with a soak in EDTA during 6 weeks. Chances are, EDTA can remove iron gal precipitates completely.

 

Inks which are permanent because of acrylic binder (not quite frequent for fountain pen inks, more in use for calligraphy inks) may not be removed without dissolving the plastic parts of the fountain pen as well - literally permanent!

[Bristol24]

I'm awfully sorry to hear of your troubles.  You are not alone which is why, after reading your post, I no longer feel ink-ignorant or otherwise inadequate for having had a similar circumstance. 

 

I solved my problem (ink drying out in stored pens, gumming latex sacs, etc.) by keeping the number of "inked" fountain pens to no more that 6 with my goal being 4 or 5.  If I get to 6 and want to ink a different pen, I empty one and immediately flush it out until its clean and then put it away.   I also decant ink from the bottle into a sample vile so I feel no guilt in "saving" unused ink by emptying the pen back into the vile.  This serves to isolate the ink bottle from any contamination from pens that shared the same ink.

 

Ruth is right about vinegar or crushed vitamin C tables in water for an iron gall flush.  I use white vinegar and Dawn dish soap when flushing a pen with an iron gall ink.  I follow that with plenty of rinsing with plain or distilled water.  Since moving to Texas, I tend to use tap water until the last rinse because the local tap water here comes from a well 3,000 feet deep and leaves virtually no water spots at all.

 

Cliff

[Tony1951]

@smug dill

Registrar's Ink is inclined to do as you say. I am well aware of the issue you speak of as I see it set under the nib wings of my cheap Jinhao pens. That ink is VERY staining - splash it on the kitchen counter top and the dye component instantly marks it and won't wipe off. It also mucks up the transparent sections of my Jinhao 992s. Ordinary neat bleach will remove the stains in about three seconds and it also works on the left behind deposits inside the feeds. I think these are at least part precipitated iron 3 or rust.

 

Yesterday, one of mine stopped feeding properly so I pushed about three ml of neat bleach through the section through a cut off International cartridge with a syringe. The two together make a simple lash up flushing system. I left the bleach inside the section for about five minutes and then flushed it out with copious amounts of water. The pen works fine now. I can't give an explanation of the chemistry involved here. I've read how acidic solutions redissolve the iron 3 deposits from IG ink that has precipitated inside pens when oxygen has oxidised the Iron 2 salts (iron sulphate) in the ink. I see how that works, but don't know why bleach is removing the deposits but it does and pretty fast in the little experience I have had.

 

Obviously, it is up to you whether you wish to use such a substance as chlorine bleach in your fountain pens. It works in mine. By far the greatest risk I suggest is to yourself. MAKE SURE TO PROTECT YOUR EYES especially if syringing bleach into a section. Poor sealing and back pressure might make random squirts of the stuff come out of the pen. It will do, so watch out. You might want to protect your skin as well.

[txomsy]

That last post reminded me, Koh-i-noor document inks (black and blue) also do stain the porcelain sink, and they tend to stick much in a similar way as BSB, requiring scrubbing to remove (or bleach).

 

[A Smug Dill]

Thank you, everyone. I defer to your collective experience and wisdom, and will try using vinegar (which I have on hand) or ascorbic acid (which I don't have on hand) next time to dissolve the film(?) of precipitate of the walls of whatever came into contact with Diamine Registrar's Ink (and I suppose ESS Registrars Ink, too), preferably removing the need for brushing. Or stick to using converters with no (metal) agitators and can be easily disassembled and reassembled, e.g. Sailor, Platinum, and some ‘international standard‘ and Chinese 2.6/3.4mm-bore ones.

 

The stubbornness of the ‘stains’ was just a surprise to me, since I don't have such issues with the Platinum Classic Ink and Blue-Black inks, and of course not Pelikan 4001 Blue/Black or KWZ Ink iron-gall inks. Or Hero 232 Blue-Black, for that matter.

 

[dipper]

When inks dry to become a solid, inside a pen ..... ? Yikes, could be bad!

 

An experiment can reveal which inks will graciously re-dissolve in plain water, and which ones will not.

 

*** No pens were harmed in the production of these results ***.

 

Glazed white plate marked with a Sharpy, and twelve inks applied by brush and allowed to dry for a couple of days.

Clockwise, from the top...

Sumi stick ink - NOT for fountain pens!

Winsor&Newton Calligraphy Black.

Waterman Intense Black.

Sailor Black.

Sailor Kiwaguro.

R&K Documentus 700.

Platinum Black (their standard black, not Platinum "Carbon" black.)

Kaweco Pearl Black.

G.v.Faber-Castell Carbon Black.

Diamine Jet Black.

DeAt..Document Ink Black.

Cross Black.

(Note the differences in ink Surface Tensions allowing full wetting vs beading.)

 

Plate gently submerged into a shallow depth of still water. Not shaken or stirred.

 

Plate lifted from the water and rested vertically against the side of the kitchen sink to drain.

 

Plate submerged again, this time with running water creating some agitation.

 

Tap turned off. Allow the water to settle. (Plate is still submerged. Note the window reflections.)

 

Plate held under running water. (Equivalent to a pen "flush".)

 

Plate laid flat, still wet from the rinse above.

 

The remaining inks all fell away from the glazed plate with one gentle fingertip wipe.

 

But the debris was tiny flakes of dry ink, stirred up in the remaining water film on the plate.

 

Conclusions:

 

These 12 inks divide into two distinct groups. Those that dissolve readily and quickly on contact with water, and those that simply refuse to dissolve.

 

The inks that refuse to dissolve cannot be removed by rapidly flowing water, despite not being firmly bonded to the glazed surface. The lightest physical contact with a fingertip, or a brush, will break the adhesion of these thin films. The thin ink film will then shatter into tiny loose flakes.

 

Behaviour of thicker deposits inside a pen is not known from these tests.

 

Possible effect of ultrasonic cleaning is not known from these tests. Better than a finger wipe?

 

My action following the tests (since Feb 2022)...

 

I use the inks that dissolved on contact with water in all my fountain pens, without any worries about the effect of a total dry-out.

 

The other inks; I restrict their use to those pens that I can fully disassemble. Confident that if disaster strikes then gentle brushing of all parts, incuding deep inside ink fissures, can remove the ink deposits.

 

I have not yet tried Sumi Stick Ink in a fountain pen. In the tests above it did not dissolve, but it was no more difficult to remove than Sailor Kiwaguro. One day I may try it  🙄.

 

[LizEF]

11 minutes ago, dipper said:

An experiment...

Wow!  Fabulous.  Thank you for sharing this with us, @dipper!

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, dipper said:

An experiment can reveal which inks will graciously re-dissolve in plain water, and which ones will not.

 

That is very cool! Why didn't I think of that? 

[txomsy]

Yoh! Not only is it cool, and useful, and visual and appealing. It is a great idea of a test for "binding" inks. I have to try that with BSB and KIN Document inks. They seem to stick to the porcelain sink even under running water, so this experiment would prove interesting.

 

The only doubt I still have is how well do this translates to plastic/resin pens/converters. I will try to think of a way to replicate that.

[dipper]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

The only doubt I still have is how well do this translates to plastic/resin pens/converters. I will try to think of a way to replicate that.

 

We could find the equivalent pen materials, in the form of a test "plate".

Luckily all the materials used to manufacture fountain pens are also used to make kitchenware, toys (Lamy 2000 = ABS = Lego bricks), tools, domestic fittings (Pli-glass ink sac = PVC hosepipe), food containers, etc. So if we find the right material...

https://bricknerd.com/home/every-type-of-plastic-used-by-lego-5-20-22

 

My glazed plate experiment was aimed at studying the dry ink solubilities only, not adhesion or staining. Hence the use of a china plate.

 

Testing pen "staining" may be the most difficult to get reliable results?

For example, cut strips of plastic from disposable opaque white coffee cups or yoghurt pots etc. Label strips with ink names using permanent marker. Dip each strip into just one ink bottle for a few minutes.

Results would show some differences between inks.

But a pen converter or ink sac of a different plastic may not react in the same way as the coffee cup strips.

 

Simple controlled test always reveal some new knowledge though.

By "controlled" I mean that all variables except one are kept the same. In my plate test the rinsing method was loosely defined, temperature was vaguely "coldish" (February in the UK), etc, etc. But all twelve inks were on the same plate, in the same water, and so differences between the inks were revealed.

 

This forum topic has also raised suggestions of using vinegar, bleach, etc, to dissolve dry ink.

That would be very interesting to investigate with a china-plate type of test.

Hmmmmm...🤔🤔🤔🤔

I see two ways....

A ) Different inks all on one "plate", then submerge plate in dilute bleach.

B ) Just one "waterproof" ink covering one plate, then with a pipette apply small separated puddles of water, bleach, citric acid, vodka, etc. Leave for 5 minutes. Suck up the puddles with a pipette. Rinse plate in cold water. Look at which puddle areas have dissolved.

 

 

[InesF]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:14 AM, dipper said:

These 12 inks divide into two distinct groups. Those that dissolve readily and quickly on contact with water, and those that simply refuse to dissolve.

Great experiment, @dipper!

Thank you for taking the effort and sharing with us!

 

Did you know, Rohrer & Klingner offers a pen flush liquid able to remove dried Sketch ink? These inks dry waterproof on paper but should be removable from plain plastic or metal surfaces. They do not publish which type of binder they use in Sketch inks nor do they declare the composition of the flush liquid.

 

Looking forward to your next steps! 👩‍🎓

[amberleadavis]

@dipper amazing test!