On ebonite, something else than silicone grease: are animal fats and beeswax safe?

[SimonGuitton]

Hello folks,

 

One of my pleasures in using old pens, is that I can do so without calling on modern industrial activity that is making Earth inhabitable. Second-hand pen, second-hand ink, and I can write without having given a cent of encouragement or means for modern companies to produce more wares at the cost of planet hospitality.

And so it would annoy me to have to buy silicone grease for my fpens. I’ve been so far relying on a single gram of the product given to me years ago, to grease my pens, but my “stock” is running out. I am looking for an alternative, ideally a non-industrial one, for the pens I own and will own, which I am resolute for them all to be retractable pens entirely made of ebonite (the why of this is another subject.)

I draw your attention on the fact that I am looking for a lubricant/fluid sealant for ebonite only. I know that the generality of lubricating products are harmful to some plastics and celluloid. But what is harmful to those, is not necessarily so to ebonite. Also, I will be only greasing threads that should not be in contact with ink (the cap thread, and the barrel one.) Therefore, the interaction between the alternative lube and plastics, celluloids, sacs, or inks, is not a concern. (It might be if I want to treat the cork seal with it, but I'll think about that later.)

I also point out that the point is to lubricate threads, not ensure waterthightness.

 

I think of beef and mutton tallow, pork lard, and beeswax.

 

Tallow is the fat extracted by melting from the fat tissues of oxen or sheep; lard, that from swine. I obtain tallow by buying fat bits of meat from a butcher, dicing these, putting them in a pot in the oven to melt (in the oven, to prevent the bottom from burning, at it happens on stovetops,) letting it melt for a while, then dumping the load in a sieve. Pure fat flows from the sieve, and then, cooling, solidifies.

Tallow is preconised on the original labels of callipers for greasing those, and I use it for all rubbing (not spinning) metal parts: threads, articulations, etc. Iron-based metallic materials are not affected by contact with it, while it keeps them from corrosion; and it never stiffens (contrarily to neatsfoot oil, which I used for a while for bearings, until I discovered that that oil, by contact with metal, eventually turned to a honey-coloured and honey-textured mess.) On copper allows though, tallow seems to encourage carbonatation and the formation of greenish stuff.

 

As for beeswax, I suppose everyone is familiar enough with it to spare discoursing on it. I use it to lubricate the sole of my hand-driven wood planes. It too helps carbonatation of copper, it seems. Member Pen Nut suggests it might be a solution.

 

How about on ebonite? Can someone tell me, from experience, if beef or mutton or pork fat, or beeswax, are safe on ebonite, or what it does to it—before I experiment by myself and deliver here the answer which I hoped to find?

 

And, by the way, what did they use, in the olden days, to grease ebonite threads and moving parts (which were not only present in fountain pens, I assume, but sometimes in machinery,) before they had silicone grease?

Edited October 28, 2022 by SimonGuitton

[Karmachanic]

Mr Z also goes in the direction of bee's wax.

 

 

[SimonGuitton]

22 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Mr Z also goes in the direction of bee's wax.

 

Thanks for this reference @Karmachanic. Yet Ron does not there mention (at least in that thread) harmless instances of the use of beeswax on ebonite.

I might just try all the different products mentioned on a piece of ebonite, and return with experimental results. Just, not on my only ebonite fountain pen. I'll have to find something else.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SimonGuitton

[Karmachanic]

23 minutes ago, SimonGuitton said:

Thanks Karmachanic. Yet he does not mention (at least in that thread) harmless instances of the use of beeswax on ebonite.

 

The first sentence indicates, to me, that Ron is speaking of Ebonite.  Personally I would defer to his expert opinion.

That aside I have a 10g pot of Molycote, which will last longer that me. I figure I offset that by being vegetarian relying upon public transportation and having a five year old handheld communication device. Works for me.

 

Good luck in your search for a substance that suits you.

[A Smug Dill]

8 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

The first sentence indicates, to me, that Ron is speaking of Ebonite.  Personally I would defer to his expert opinion.

 

Yes, but I think Simon meant that he had emphasised (in italics), in his initial post, he's seeking anecdotes that comes from experience, not conjecture alone; and Ron wrote in the post you linked, “I would expect that it would not harm the pen.” That may or (more likely, on the basis of the wording) may not be based on actual experience. So the point of contention is not whether the material was stated as hard rubber instead of “ebonite”, when ebonite is of course hard rubber.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by A Smug Dill
Inserted inadvertently omitted "not". That'll learn me to not post late when falling asleep!

[FarmBoy]

Is the pen in question a Waterman Safety pen and are you looking at lubricating the spiral shaft seal?

[Ron Z]

You don't have to parse my wording too deeply. 

 

The phrasing of my comment is such that there is a little wiggle room.  But my belief with hard rubber pens is that it is best to ere on the side of caution.  If an alternative to a petroleum containing product for sealing the threads is available, i.e. beeswax I would, and do, prefer to use that.  We may not be around long enough to see how the rubber works with the other sealant that contains petroleum products.  I have also often observed that Molykote i.e. silicone grease, is not a thread sealant.  Any "sealing" action is likely the result of the hydrophobic properties of the silicone grease.  It also makes it easier to over tighten the section because it reduces friction. 

 

Experience with thread sealant.  It gets really sticky when it cools, so you often have to warm the joint to open the pen.  I would not use it on a joint that I regularly take apart.  Messy is can be an understatement.  You have to use Naphtha to get it off of your fingers. Or clothes.  But for sections on pens like Vacumatics or Sheaffer plunger fillers, it's the stuff to use.

[SimonGuitton]

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The first sentence indicates, to me, that Ron is speaking of Ebonite.  Personally I would defer to his expert opinion.

Indeed @Karmachanic, it is the right material that is mentioned; A Smug Dill has clarified my answer for me.

 

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So the point of contention is whether the material was stated as hard rubber instead of “ebonite”, when ebonite is of course hard rubber.

@A Smug Dill, I see no point of contention here, to me ebonite = hard rubber, and I understood Ron Z's and Karmachanic's posts accordingly, without confusion.

 

Quote

Is the pen in question a Waterman Safety pen and are you looking at lubricating the spiral shaft seal?

@FarmBoy, the pen in question is not a Waterman, but it is a retractable safety. I wish to lubricate the thread of the cap (the thread used to close and open the pen, for easier use and minimized wear) and the barrel thread (with the same purpose, as well as to prevent leakage: I have found that ink was liable to ooze out from this joint.)

 

Quote

If an alternative to a petroleum-containing product for sealing the threads is available, i.e. beeswax, I would, and do, prefer to use that.

@Ron Z, should I understand that you have used beeswax on ebonite threads without ever observing deterioration of the material? That would solve my interrogation.

You post also gives me the impression that you think that I am after a thread sealant. I am not : I am looking for a solid, or at least thick, lubricant, (which I expect to act as a sealant too, but that naturally comes with the natural products mentioned, since they all are hydrophobic.)

 

Gosh, I have posted the same interrogation on a French forum, and the contrast in constructivity and quality in the replies between American and French boards, which I have been noticing since I browse forums in both languages about the same topics, is striking in this instance. It's clearly better here.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SimonGuitton

[FarmBoy]

The cap threads do not form the seal to the ink reservoir. If the pen isn’t holding ink there is a problem with the inner cap seal. 
 

I’ve never lubricated cap threads. 
 

 

[Ron Z]

4 hours ago, SimonGuitton said:

Ron Z, should I understand that you have used beeswax on ebonite threads without ever observing deterioration of the material? That would solve my interrogation.

 

I generally prefer to use beeswax in cases like this. On the corks and rod for the helix I use silicone grease  where you are not sealing but want something slippery so that the rod turns smoothly.   Farmboy could go into the chemistry more, but beeswax is a natural product,  used in many applications where you wouldn't use oil.  Granted, the type of rubber will make a difference.  Rubber like  Viton, or buna-N  can be resistant to many chemicals.  But the ebonite in vintage pens like this is latex that is vulcanized heat and sulfur.  It is not effected by many things, but I expect could be  effected by long exposure to petroleum products.  Again, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

I soften the wax over a heat gun, apply to the threads all of the way around bit by bit, heat again to liquid on the threads and assemble.  You can use Naphtha to clean up.  It evaporates very quickly and doesn't leave anything behind.

[dipper]

A parallel topic - but this story does return to beeswax .... eventually.

 

Years ago I was having trouble when testing some protective varnishes, purchased from an art store, to be used as a protective coating on framed paintings. Results were mixed. One purchased varnish came away from an acrylic painting when rubbed with a cloth and water only. I was unsure if it was supposed to do that.

On a whim, I also tried gently rubbing a stick of beeswax over some (test) paintings and then buffing with a soft cloth. Results seemed good, but I wondered if the Beeswax would have any long term effects?

 

Some communication with the technical department of the art supplies manufacturer Winsor&Newton ensued. (W&N were based in the UK at that time.)

 

Among other things, W&N said that pure beeswax is considered perfectly safe. It is effectively innert, and does not react with any of the pigments or binders present in art materials. (And that is a very long list of potential materials!) Apparently some of the oldest and best preserved paintings in existence are made using melted beeswax - "encaustic" paintings. Perhaps the face paintings on Egyptian mummy cases? 

 

Since then I always have pieces of beeswax to hand, and I do rub beeswax into or onto all sorts of things to make a glossy protective water-repelling surface.

 

To date, I have not used beeswax on ebonite, but I have used it on screw threads. It works well on metal screws going into wood.

One observation here is that the beeswax does not fill any spaces between the two mating screw threads, with harder screw materials such as metals or plastics. It does not behave like grease, that is retained on the threads when parts are unscrewed and then reassembled. Instead, any excess wax gets pushed out of the thread grooves as little flakes.

Strangely it also gives a little bit of "bite". Beeswax is slippery when polished, or once parts are moving over each other, but slightly sticky when two static parts are squeezed firmly together.

Metal screws going into wood works better than all metal threads because the beeswax penetrates the surface pores of the wood, and a little extra "grip", once the metal screw has gone in to the correct depth is desirable.

 

Conclusions (tentative):

Beeswax on ebonite/ebonite threads will be messy at first,  excess wax will be rubbed away as loose flakes when repeatedly unscrewing.

Eventually, the result will show a nice glossy surface finish on the threads, especially if polished with a soft cloth.

Any gaps between the mating threads will not be filled by any stable "fill" of wax.

The threads will slide smoothly in use.

But when tightened, left for some time, and then later unscrewed, a slight initial "grab" may be felt, due to the super-thin layer of wax on the two parts having partially bonded together.

 

For @SimonGuitton uses, that may be what you want.... or may be exactly what you don't want!

[SimonGuitton]

@FarmBoy, there's no problem with the cap seal. I'm just looking to ease the opening and closing of the cap.

 

@Ron Z Thank you Ron for this insight. Beeswax is what I'm looking for then... for the barrel thread at least. @dipper, you very rightly remind me of the grip which beeswax gives.

It seems that the lubricating action of beeswax on the sole of hand planes is a "particular" case (I suppose that it works thanks to the surface of the wax being violently rubbed, and maybe melted.) Indeed, in static contact, beeswax does the contraty of lubricating, and that's not what I want for the cap.

 

I now think that this "grippiness" is characteristic of beeswax that have been left to cool in place from a more fluid state. I'm thinking of doing the same thing as I have to do with freshly-exctracted beef tallow: work it up by scraping and stirring it. It produces a "cream" which is much less stiff than the cooled-in-place stuff. I'll try the same with beeswax, make some "beeswax cream," and let you know what come of it.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SimonGuitton

[dipper]

Ah yes, Beeswax Cream!

 

I did once make a creamy concoction.....

Mashing and stirring cold beeswax makes a crumbly mess.

Warming to near melting point allows the wax to be whipped into a soft creamy white paste - that sets into a hard fluffy substance when cooled.

Mixing warmed beeswax with a volatile solvent makes a cream that remains squishy when cooled. (Can't recall if it was meths or white-spirit or turps that worked best.)

 

After being impressed with the quality of "my" product, I realised that I had simply re-invented traditional furniture polish. Available at any hardware store, with "Contains real beeswax" printed on the tins!

 

[SimonGuitton]

Well, beeswax cream proved impossible to make (that is, mechanically, at room temperature, without the addition of any solvent.) No matter how I mashed the material up, it remained stiff and sticky.
I guess I'll apply the beeswax warmed, if at all, to the barrel thread only.

  

2 hours ago, dipper said:

Ah yes, Beeswax Cream!

Mixing warmed beeswax with a volatile solvent makes a cream that remains squishy when cooled. (Can't recall if it was meths or white-spirit or turps that worked best.)

Indeed, I made some beeswac cream by mixing turpentine with beeswax, (to apply onto the end of lumber to prevent the too-fast drying of and through the ends and thereby splitting.) I did it cold though, and the beeswax took days, and a lot of turpentine (more turp in volume than wax, IIRC,) to turn into a paste.

But I wouldn't have any solvent in contact with my ebonite. Except alcohol, as David Nishimura says that it's safe on ebonite. But I'm afraid beeswax is not soluble in alcohol.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SimonGuitton

[SimonGuitton]

Update : I've been applying beef tallow to the cap threads for the past few months. It makes the screwing on and off much smoother and thus reduces the wear of the threads; without any observable degradation of the ebonite so far.