Asvine P20- Cue the Leonardo Moral Outrage

[amberleadavis]

Thank you @A Smug Dill.  I was hoping it was a Jowo #6.

[A Smug Dill]

54 minutes ago, amberleadavis said:

Thank you @A Smug Dill.  I was hoping it was a Jowo #6.

 

You can probably jam a JoWo #6 nib into the nib collar, although I'm not really of a mind to try that myself.

 

(Mainland) Chinese-branded pens are unlikely to be tapped for a JoWo #6 nib unit, although I've seen some models tapped for a Bock type 250 nib unit. Majohn offers (separate) nib housings for its model P136 that can specifically accommodate the nib and feed taken from either a JoWo #6 nib unit or a Bock type 250 nib unit, but screwing a JoWo-made nib unit transferred over from, say, an Opus 88 Demonstrator fountain pen, without separating the nib and feed from the collar is still not part of that design.

 

The way I see it, the Chinese brands aren't positioning themselves to sell glorified nib holders for German nib units, and compete by having many attractive acrylics and styles priced more cheaply than European fountain pens that take JoWo or Bock nib units. The variants of Chinese pen models that take Bock nibs are relatively (and significantly) more expensive than the equivalent that takes Chinese nib units. Still, a Moonman 800 is a damn sight cheaper than my Leonardo Momemto Zero, even though neither model really offers an advantage nib-wise over the other.

 

[Mexchin]

Majohn sells nib housing forJowo and Bock nibs to use in their P136.

[BudgieBee]

Been tempted by this pen, but worried about the plunger knob. I have a Majohn T5 which I loved, right up until that part broke and looking at it it was just held on by a flimsy little bit of plastic. Great pen ruined by a cheapo part. Any idea how sturdy the piston is on the P20 (for some reason this pen really feels like a rebranded Majohn to me, which is why I'm concerned.)

[A Smug Dill]

4 hours ago, BudgieBee said:

Any idea how sturdy the piston is on the P20

 

Watch, or at least skim, the Inkquiring Minds video that was posted on the previous page. I don't like watching reviews in video form, but even so I could quickly see just by scanning the timeline that it has the answer to your question.

 

4 hours ago, BudgieBee said:

(for some reason this pen really feels like a rebranded Majohn to me,

 

Because the Asvine P20 shares a lot of Moonman's DNA. I'm pretty confident that the piston units in the Majohn T5 and Asvine P20 are interchangeable; and the Asvine P20's nib collar is identical to that in some Moonman models (e.g. non-Bock version of the 800 model).

 

[VillersCotterets]

One more review and a compatibility of parts that indicates a common manufacturer for several brands.
 

 

[Mech-for-i]

Am not surprised, it might be that they come from the same Mfr and / or they source from the same parts supplier / Mfr

 

This is how industrial production and manufacturing work , standardized and interchangeable compatible common parts - there really is no reason to keep reinventing the wheel 

 

Just as pretty much all bespoke fountain pen having not their own pen part but that of Jowo and Bock , almost all bespoke ballpoint and mechanical pencil take Schimdt mechanism

 

And this could very well the same , just that it's from a source other than the name on prior paragraph 

[VillersCotterets]

I agree with you that this is not a surprise. However, I find the commonalities interesting in at least two respects. 
 

First, we hear glowing reviews of some brands that are not functionally justified since their components are interchangeable with less popular brands. Some brands, such as TWSBI and Nahvalur, proudly claim not to be Chinese. However, here we have evidence that they are Taiwanese or American only in their marketing, not in their manufacturing or materials. And since these brands draw from an OEM's offering, it is certain that they cannot deviate from the OEM's proposed designs either. The difference between a TWSBI Eco or a Nahvalur Schuykill and an Asvine P20 or a PenBBS 4xx is more subtle than it seems. This is due to marketing perception rather than manufacturing, a psychological rather than physical difference.
 

In addition, marketing differences can sometimes double the price of a product, affecting the perceived quality of the product. Selling at a higher price often translates into an impression of higher quality. A pen of one brand, effectively identical to another model offered by a less prominent brand, will be valued more highly and even considered a good deal because it is compared to other models in a higher price range. A much cheaper alternative will be considered of dubious quality and/or likely to disappoint because of its lower price.

Comparing the Schuykill to the P20, this phenomenon seems to be in play. 

[Aditlojs]

16 hours ago, VillersCotterets said:

I agree with you that this is not a surprise. However, I find the commonalities interesting in at least two respects. 
 

First, we hear glowing reviews of some brands that are not functionally justified since their components are interchangeable with less popular brands. Some brands, such as TWSBI and Nahvalur, proudly claim not to be Chinese. However, here we have evidence that they are Taiwanese or American only in their marketing, not in their manufacturing or materials. And since these brands draw from an OEM's offering, it is certain that they cannot deviate from the OEM's proposed designs either. The difference between a TWSBI Eco or a Nahvalur Schuykill and an Asvine P20 or a PenBBS 4xx is more subtle than it seems. This is due to marketing perception rather than manufacturing, a psychological rather than physical difference.
 

In addition, marketing differences can sometimes double the price of a product, affecting the perceived quality of the product. Selling at a higher price often translates into an impression of higher quality. A pen of one brand, effectively identical to another model offered by a less prominent brand, will be valued more highly and even considered a good deal because it is compared to other models in a higher price range. A much cheaper alternative will be considered of dubious quality and/or likely to disappoint because of its lower price.

Comparing the Schuykill to the P20, this phenomenon seems to be in play. 

 

I don't recall Nahvalur proudly claiming not to be Chinese.  This would be a big deal to me.  Any idea where this was?  

 

 

[VillersCotterets]

 

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Nahvalur (Narwhal) is a California based company who emerged on the scene in 2019 with the Original piston mechanism acrylic fountain pen. 

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Made entirely in-house, Nahvalur takes craftsmanship to a higher level. From the self-made nibs that are smooth and flow perfectly to their popular and affordable piston filler and beautiful resins.

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About Nahvalur Original Fountain Pen - Merman Green Nahvalur Pens are based in California, USA and produce all of the components for their pens in-house.

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Founded less than two years ago in California, the company was launched and made its debut at the DC Supershow on 1 August 2019.

 

[txomsy]

Well, if they are not liars then their pens are NOT produced in China.

 

It should not be forgotten that reverse engineering a pen is not that difficult, and that modern technology can make it trivial to make a product that perfectly matches another existing one.

 

That two products are compatible or very similar (to the point of being indistinguishable) is no proof of a common origin and might be instead proof of plagiarism (if copyrights stand), blunt copying (if the design is in the public domain), or plain imitation, which are quite a different thing.

 

19 hours ago, VillersCotterets said:

I agree with you that this is not a surprise. However, I find the commonalities interesting in at least two respects.

...
Comparing the Schuykill to the P20, this phenomenon seems to be in play. 

 

[mauckcg]

2 hours ago, txomsy said:

Well, if they are not liars then their pens are NOT produced in China.

 

It should not be forgotten that reverse engineering a pen is not that difficult, and that modern technology can make it trivial to make a product that perfectly matches another existing one.

 

That two products are compatible or very similar (to the point of being indistinguishable) is no proof of a common origin and might be instead proof of plagiarism (if copyrights stand), blunt copying (if the design is in the public domain), or plain imitation, which are quite a different thing.

 

 

These blogposts say otherwise.

 

https://ukfountainpens.com/2020/07/23/the-narwhal-original-is-a-great-budget-piston-filler/

https://pengeek13.wordpress.com/2019/11/06/narwhal-fountain-pen/

[Mech-for-i]

That would be very interesting then , out of all these pens the PenBBS is the earliest that come to the scene , so if there is any form of copying, which I do not believe there are , would be in this case kind of unlikely - you know , utilizing already available parts to made a new product is not uncommon , in fact its very common , in industrial design .. Narwhal , I do think , do not lie , but being made in house does not exclude sourcing specific parts from others , first off its highly unlikely they had the capacity to fashion the metal parts out of raw metal stock all by themselves , its not the difficulty involves but the excessive cost involved

 

Its just like many of the  " Made in XXXX " products , if we come down to it , that " Made in XXXX " is kind of misleading cause anyone can go and made a product with only minority of the product actually being made in the specified locale , this is not even new , this had been so since way way way back , like say 1960's ... that goes for product of all walks and all price bracket ...

 

 

[Jamerelbe]

There are a few possible explanations of the apparent discrepancies here - I confess I haven't followed Narwhal / Nahvalur closely enough to know which is true:

 

(1) Being based in California and manufacturing components "in-house" doesn't necessarily mean that components are manufactured in California - their design and sales base may be in one country, and their manufacturing arm in another.  I strongly suspect this is the case. 

(2) Is it *possible* that their manufacturing arm is based in Taiwan, rather than mainland China?  I know I'm on shaky ground here, but if that's true, it could give them further mental "wiggle room" to distance themselves from China - since Taiwan at this stage is not governed by the "People's Republic".  TWSBI certainly is a Taiwanese company - though I've heard some speculation that some of its manufacturing (especially of their lower-cost pens) has been outsourced to the Mainland.

(3) It's possible (though I think unlikely) that Nahvalur began producing pens in China, before opening up a manufacturing facility in California.

 

One other thing: I think there's a difference between a company "proudly claiming NOT TO BE Chinese" - which is essentially a negative statement, and sounds like a repudiation of China - and a company claiming TO BE something else (Taiwanese, or American).  To cite a well-known example, Apple is an American company that sources components (and oversees assembly?) in China, India, and other parts of the world - and does a lot of its banking in Ireland?  Apple don't proudly proclaim themselves to be "not Chinese" - they claim to be an American company, even as they openly admit their reliance on other countries for components and assembly.

 

 

 

[VillersCotterets]

It's impossible to conclude anything definite, because Nahvalur deliberately keeps its operations vague, but if you look closely at their communications, they say things that suggest other things, but never confirm or deny them. I think this ambiguity allows them to act like a chameleon. We see what we want to see, and it suits them. 

Without claiming that this is the only possible explanation, here is one that seems plausible to me. Let's entertain it just to see what we can infer from that hypothesis. Let's assume that a Chinese OEM manufacturer has been producing fountain pens for decades. Perhaps still employed by this company or perhaps not, some of its engineers end up in California. At the DC Show, they launch the Narwhal brand. The name is chosen for its western connotation, to overshadow their Chinese origin. They take great care to reveal partial facts, but not the whole truth. They leave out details that might give embarrassing clues about their Chinese identity and do not set the record straight when a dealer or critic draws the wrong conclusions about them not being Chinese. 

 

• All components are made "in-house". Yes, but not in the USA. In China.
• The juxtaposition of "we launched this brand in California" and "we make everything ourselves" is a tempting combination. They know it. It's all about giving a false impression, to incite others to jumps to conclusions, without actually saying anything untrue themselves. 
• The designers have decades of experience behind them. Yes, but not as Narwhal. This is a team of ex- OEM employees or OEM employees who run a marketing department within the OEM, to cater to Western sensibilities.
• Narval has never copied TWSBI's pistons, as these pistons are designed and manufactured by the OEM for TWSBI as well as Narval and Asvine. They are the same components, made in the same Chinese factory. They just didn't tell TWSBI that Narwhal and Asvine are themselves under different brand names.
• Narwhal was only American in terms of the brand's launch venue; the DC Show, and perhaps also a distribution centre for Western dealers.
• When a dealer or critic gets too far ahead of himself, for example by wrongly assuming that the company is American, Narwhal lets the false rumour fly.
• And so on.

[Aditlojs]

12 hours ago, VillersCotterets said:

 

 

 

 

Maybe I am misunderstanding your claims.  None of those are statements that their pens or components are manufactured in the US or anywhere else specifically.  You can certainly have a California based company manufacture their goods elsewhere.  I dont believe labeling yourself as California based company implies that your manufactuering happens in California.  

 

I do agree that the use of "in-house" or "self-made" might not be appropriate if you're using readily available OEM components.    I am going off memory here, but in the Tokyo Inklings interview with the owner of Narwhal, one of the hosts mentioned Narwhal using the same feeds as Moonman, and the owner emphatically stated that this wasn't the case.  I believe he stated they had applied their own tweaks to the OEM design.  The next logical question, how much tweaking is required to be considered "self-made" or "in-house"?  Thats a question that wont have a definitive answer.  

[VillersCotterets]

2 hours ago, Aditlojs said:

I do agree that the use of "in-house" or "self-made" might not be appropriate if you're using readily available OEM components.

The "in-house" label would be somewhat appropriate if you are the OEM and sell your own products under your new Western-sounding brand. And if someone mistakes you for a non-Chinese company, you don't disillusion them because it's to your advantage in a market that is wary of Chinese products. It would just be misleading by ambiguity and/or omission.

In this scenario, the feeders would not be made by Moonman but by you; the "in-house" nibs would be 'tweaked' by being stamped with the Narhwal branding; and the overall design would adopt the stylistic language of the sea creatures.

This is all conjecture, but I think it could very well be not far from the truth.

[early]

22 hours ago, VillersCotterets said:

The "in-house" label would be somewhat appropriate if you are the OEM and sell your own products under your new Western-sounding brand. And if someone mistakes you for a non-Chinese company, you don't disillusion them because it's to your advantage in a market that is wary of Chinese products. It would just be misleading by ambiguity and/or omission.

In this scenario, the feeders would not be made by Moonman but by you; the "in-house" nibs would be 'tweaked' by being stamped with the Narhwal branding; and the overall design would adopt the stylistic language of the sea creatures.

This is all conjecture, but I think it could very well be not far from the truth.

 

https://tokyoinklings.com/episodes/058/

 

Co-founder Frank Zhang of Narwhal gets grilled a bit by CY in this episode. He seems to admit that the "in-house nibs" claim was inappropriate, but defends some aspects of the nib unit (custom acid etching of the feeds?). They claim they are in the dark re: other large OEMs.

 

Narwhal works with the OEM on design, and the OEM sources and uses parts common in other pens to create Narwhals. The shared piston mechanisms, feed designs etc. between these brands is not surprising to me given what we know. Frank speaks to the fact that they've gone up market since their debut. The Asvine P20 doing the Schuylkill for much less with a near identical design (probably from the same factory) justifies their focus on more "original" designs (Frank mentions the Nautilus in ebonite with a ink window) rather than (my speculation) what are essentially OEM-designed models.

[amberleadavis]

On 11/27/2022 at 10:03 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

The way I see it, the Chinese brands aren't positioning themselves to sell glorified nib holders for German nib units, and compete by having many attractive acrylics and styles priced more cheaply than European fountain pens that take JoWo or Bock nib units. The variants of Chinese pen models that take Bock nibs are relatively (and significantly) more expensive than the equivalent that takes Chinese nib units. Still, a Moonman 800 is a damn sight cheaper than my Leonardo Momemto Zero, even though neither model really offers an advantage nib-wise over the other.

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

@amberleadavis Is the Kaigelu NMF nib “insanely broad expressive” enough? The Asvine P20 uses the same sort of nib unit in a Majohn, so I'm confident that if I can fit that nib into a Majohn T5 (which does not have a removable nib unit, but nevertheless), it will fit into an Asvine P20.