EFNIR: Sailor Kiwaguro

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, Sailor Kenshin said:

Did you settle on one?

Lamy Black - cheap (she's on a fixed income) and writes a nice fine line (she writes too fine for her preferred nib size, and won't use a smaller nib size  , so the finer the ink itself, the better).  I do still have a few un-tested blacks (got soooo tired of the monotony that I gave up before I tested them all), but unless I find one that writes a finer line and doesn't cost an arm & a leg, we're sticking with Lamy Black.

[Sailor Kenshin]

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

Lamy Black - cheap (she's on a fixed income) and writes a nice fine line (she writes too fine for her preferred nib size, and won't use a smaller nib size  , so the finer the ink itself, the better).  I do still have a few un-tested blacks (got soooo tired of the monotony that I gave up before I tested them all), but unless I find one that writes a finer line and doesn't cost an arm & a leg, we're sticking with Lamy Black.

It's a good ink.  

[Intensity]

In my experience with using this ink with really fine nibs (the only way I can stomach pure black inks) is it has good lubrication and also it appears a cool silvery black due to the sheen, no brown in evidence at all.  I'm surprised about the brown--I only saw that in a wash as it smeared slightly brownish.  But in actual written lines it's a solid black with cool silver sheen.  Same goes for Platinum Carbon Black color and sheen-wise.  In my experience Kiwa-Guro sheens more easily, but Carbon Black has very much more water resistance (practically waterproof, whereas Kiwa-Guro continues smudging with water.)

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

But in actual written lines it's a solid black with cool silver sheen. 

I agree that the brownish lean is only visible in broader swatches - and perhaps from dry, broad nibs, where more color would show through.  From my EF nib, the ink just looked black.  I didn't see the silver sheen, but that could just be the fineness or dryness of my nib.  Thanks for sharing your experiences with the ink!

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, Intensity said:

But in actual written lines it's a solid black with cool silver sheen.  Same goes for Platinum Carbon Black color and sheen-wise.  In my experience Kiwa-Guro sheens more easily, but Carbon Black has very much more water resistance (practically waterproof,

 

I concur.

[dipper]

Interesting characteristics of Sailor Kiwaguro black ink can be revealed by diluting with water.

 

Diluted, the "warm undertone" is revealed. Used in a broad nib wet-writing fountain pen it can even show some shading.

 

No pens currently filled with diluted Kiwaguro, so I grabbed a ruling pen for the quick demo above.

 

My bottle of diluted Kiwaguro is a by-product of art sessions using brushes etc with a watercolour palette, or an array of small dishes, holding inks at different dilutions. At the end of each session there is always plenty of diluted ink left over. Kiwaguro is too expensive to throw away, so I pipette the left-overs into a spare ink bottle. That bottle must be at least four years old now, and the diluted Kiwaguro ink is still in perfect condition despite standing open in dishes, being part used, and being topped up again many times.

 

 

 

[LizEF]

Thank you, @dipper, for sharing this experience and idea!  For some bizarre reason, it's never occurred to me to try diluting the remains of my black ink samples.  But I dislike black ink, and enjoy grey ink, so it's a no-brainer!  (I'm not sure whether that means I need more or less brain... )  And if it kills the lubrication, I can just use one of my broad nibs - I have two that I can think of at the moment - one wet, one dry.

[Intensity]

Personally I hate the dirty brownish wash from Kiwa Guro and Carbon Black.  They don’t make a nice gray.  An actual gray ink is better suited.

[LizEF]

44 minutes ago, Intensity said:

Personally I hate the dirty brownish wash from Kiwa Guro and Carbon Black.  They don’t make a nice gray.  An actual gray ink is better suited.

I wouldn't have thought I would like a warm brown, but then I tried De Atramentis Document Urban Grey and love it, so I'll reserve my judgement until I've seen them diluted in person.    And anyway, it's hard to imagine them being worse than straight black, so...

[A Smug Dill]

7 hours ago, Intensity said:

Personally I hate the dirty brownish wash from Kiwa Guro and Carbon Black.

 

Platinum Carbon Black does not wash with water at all, in my experience. It takes friction, such as that directly applied with the bristles of a brush or a cotton swab, to dislodge a very small proportion of the carbon/pigment particles after the ink marks are rewetted. A highly pressurised jet of water can probably do it too, but it won't matter in that case, because the dislodged particles will get flushed away by the jet; there is no dye component that can stain the surrounding area when rewetting dried Platinum Carbon Black ink marks.

 

Of course, if you meant Graf von Faber-Castell Carbon Black, then I'll take your word for it, since I've never used or tested that ink.

[Intensity]

4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Platinum Carbon Black does not wash with water at all, in my experience. It takes friction, such as that directly applied with the bristles of a brush or a cotton swab, to dislodge a very small proportion of the carbon/pigment particles after the ink marks are rewetted. A highly pressurised jet of water can probably do it too, but it won't matter in that case, because the dislodged particles will get flushed away by the jet; there is no dye component that can stain the surrounding area when rewetting dried Platinum Carbon Black ink marks.

 

Of course, if you meant Graf von Faber-Castell Carbon Black, then I'll take your word for it, since I've never used or tested that ink.

I mean I have done a wash on it soon after sketching by using a Kuretake water brush--you can still smear it a bit before it dries fully.  Yes, it's quite waterproof once it's really dry.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, Intensity said:

you can still smear it a bit before it dries fully.  Yes, it's quite waterproof once it's really dry.

 

I posted a video of my testing here two years ago:

 

Absolutely nothing runs off the rewetted ink marks if you don't touch them (including with a brush, q-tip, fingertip, etc.); it's waterproof. I daresay, however, that even a week-old page of writing in Platinum Carbon Black ink is subject to having pigment particles dislodged if rewetted. The key difference is waterproofness versus being proof against mechanical interference; there is no chance you can erase a mark made with Platinum Carbon Black on a page, without destroying the substrate, but you can cause some particles to come off (which is arguably of no impact if they just escape into the bath or get lifted onto a wet cloth or paper towel. You can probably remove all that is prone to be removed by soaking and rubbing the line drawing done in Platinum Carbon Black with a wet cloth, before applying any other ink on the (subsequently dried) sheet.

 

What I'm deliberately not equating is the definition of ‘waterproof’ of a single ink with its suitability for use in drawing with multiple inks/colours.

[Intensity]

I’m not sure why my post caused so much nitpicking—I deliberately do washes on inks before they fully dry for artistic purposes, so yes, it’s still possible to smear even waterproof inks—before they completely dry.  I never stated that Carbon Black is not quite waterproof after drying.  Only that it has the same dirty warm brownish look if one deliberately did a smudge/wash.

[A Smug Dill]

18 hours ago, Intensity said:

I’m not sure why my post caused so much nitpicking

 

It certainly wouldn't be the first time, or even the second time, I argued with someone on FPN about the definition of ‘waterproof’ as a property of an ink or of the marks made with it on some substrate.

 

18 hours ago, Intensity said:

Only that it has the same dirty warm brownish look if one deliberately did a smudge/wash.

 

My contention is that there is no brownish wash from Platinum Carbon Black as you claimed, whether you throw water on the ink marks or soak them, after they have been put on the page after 30 seconds, 30 hours, or 30 days; unlike Sailor Kiwaguro (or, for that matter, Hero 234 Carbon Black) it is waterproof on most papers, full stop. It is also extremely resistant to smudging by rubbing (with a clean and dry fingertip, cotton swab, rubber eraser, etc.) when dry; applying friction is a completely different thing to applying moisture/water to the ink marks. I make no representation and seek no argument as to whether it's suitable for use in particular applications. I don't think that's nitpicking; I think that's being precise, so that other readers can understand exactly what to expect from different treatment of the ink marks.

 

No part of ‘waterproof’ implies being rubbed, any more than it implies being treated by other solvents or chemicals, or subjected to intense ultraviolet light, etc. This, to me, is wash:

[Intensity]

I don’t think you understood: the ink has water content in the bottle.  The carbon particles are in a water suspension with additives.  Before the liquid dries on a page, yes, you can add extra water and do a watercolor-style wash.  Sure, after this ink has dried, its water resistance is extremely high.  It’s like with oil paint: you can smear it and mix it—until it cures.

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, Intensity said:

I don’t think you understood:

 

Indeed I didn't (and still don't). Are you saying you are putting a permanent, pigment-based (either Sailor Kiwaguro or Platinum Carbon Black) black ink to deliberately dilute it with water while the ink itself is still wet on the paper surface, so that it cannot properly form a crisply shaped ink mark on the page, but are unhappy with the colour of the result?

 

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

Indeed I didn't (and still don't). Are you saying you are putting a permanent, pigment-based (either Sailor Kiwaguro or Platinum Carbon Black) black ink to deliberately dilute it with water while the ink itself is still wet on the paper surface, so that it cannot properly form a crisply shaped ink mark on the page, but are unhappy with the colour of the result?

That's how I understood it - put it down, quick-hurry-brush-over-it, blech.  Presumably, it was done as a test or as an accident, since the result wasn't to @Intensity's liking.  (At least, I assume one wouldn't keep doing it when one doesn't like it... )

[A Smug Dill]

11 minutes ago, LizEF said:

That's how I understood it - put it down, quick-hurry-brush-over-it, blech.  Presumably, it was done as a test or as an accident,

 

Then it was, and is, my mistake to assume he “hate[d] the dirty brown wash” because he didn't expect or wanted any ‘wash’ at all, and the reason for employing a permanent, pigment-based ink in the first place was to draw crisp, waterproof (out)lines on the page that simply would not budge, when areas inside those lines are subsequently drawn over or filled in with other suitable, more watercolour-like inks to be spread with a wet brush.

 

I'll admit, I'm still struggling to wrap my head around deliberately trying to smudge, smear, or ‘wash’ a permanent, non-dye-based black ink — being the specific target of the manoeuvre — with something wet and then hating the result. I suppose @Intensity didn't say which black inks would work much better for that particular purpose, when come-hell-or-high-water steadfastness (in the sense of, “Screw your water brush; you've got nothing on me!”) is actually not what is desired from the exercise that employed Sailor Kiwaguro or Platinum Carbon Black.

[LizEF]

29 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

Then it was, and is, my mistake to assume he “hate[d] the dirty brown wash” because he didn't expect or wanted any ‘wash’ at all, and the reason for employing a permanent, pigment-based ink in the first place was to draw crisp, waterproof (out)lines on the page that simply would not budge, when areas inside those lines are subsequently drawn over or filled in with other suitable, more watercolour-like inks to be spread with a wet brush.

My interpretation was that Intensity tried it, hated the color that resulted (not the fact that anything moved), and (I hope) gave up on it for that purpose and picked another ink that washes into a more likeable color.

 

Who knows which of us is right, but that was my interpretation.

[Intensity]

Ah to clarify, I frequently sketch on the margins of my journals and have a Kuretake water brush on hand to treat inks like makeshift watercolors.  I do consider Carbon Black to be basically waterproof.  It was when I was comparing Kiwa Guro and Carbon Black that I also compared how they look smeared/diluted/washed, if you will, with water before they dry.  And I personally don’t like the result, vs pretty washes from other black inks such as Iro Take Sumi. But yes, to restate again, Carbon Black does not budge after drying.