End of the road for Pelikan?

[txomsy]

1 hour ago, Harold said:

We all seem to have strayed quite a long way off the original topic of this thread.

Which was...? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

7 hours ago, Harold said:

This is not a matter of will or skill anymore, it's a matter of deliberately creating a world in which you do not get to decide what you want to do with the things you supposedly own, just so you have to keep coming back to buy more.

 

You go too far in your accusatory claim, and in doing so make it invalid. Pens, and other writing instruments remain tangible objects over which owners can have clear title over legally; and they indeed get to decide what they want to do such private property, within the confines of applicable laws and the limits of their own capability. Unlike digital media content, software, and other types of intellectual property, customers are not merely licensed to use the content or functionality of those “things you supposedly own” in restricted ways by legal agreement with the owners of the trademarks and intangible products the customers “buy”.

 

However, it is rarely part of the legal or commercial agreement, when you buy a pen or even an automobile and gain clear title of the object, that the manufacturer and/or supplier will also provide (or enhance your) capability, or give you access to as much support as you may subsequently desire or need, to conduct unauthorised repair, modification, or adaptation of the products on your terms. Unauthorised does not mean you are not allowed to do it, by law or otherwise; and you can decide to proceed anyway even if you end up failing in your endeavour while voiding all warranties and guarantees in the process. It is irrelevant whether you are used to, and/or tacitly expect, manufacturers to “let” you do something by providing support or at least making it easy to do what you want to do with the units of the product you own. Fountain pen manufacturers have no commercial obligation to teach you how to write with a pen, or provide you the means to acquire ink with which to refill and continue writing the pens you own, if they do not also produce and/or sell inks; so there is no valid reason to assume by default that mechanical objects are designed to be repairable by you, with or without a cache of technical knowledge, manual agility, and professional tools that you may be proud of also supposedly having.

 

Nobody is sabotaging what you already have. They may be “creating a world” in which your old know-how, skills, and expectations are no longer applicable, useful, or valid; but there was never any agreement with them to preserve the status quo from your perspective.

 

[inkstainedruth]

21 hours ago, rochester21 said:

That repair and reuse culture is long gone, spare parts are problematic in all fields not just fountain pens, and this simply wasn't the case in the past. 

 

It's no wonder we create mountains of waste since there are no more parts or repair people to fix stuff, and everything is so poorly made that repairs are just not worth it anymore. It's a different world, people have forgotten that it didn't used to be this way. 

Sad but true.  We're going to have to drop a lot of money unexpectedly because we are going to have to replace the boiler for our house's furnace.  It's not that old, but the manufacturer (a European company) apparently had problems with it and discontinued the model (unbeknownst to us, and possibly also unbeknownst to the place who installed it for us ).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Parker51]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:21 PM, Uncial said:

 

It's true that fountain pens were available in peculiar places such as garages/gas stations, but they weren't always cheap, disposable items. If you look at what a Parker 51 cost and work out what that would be in today's money, it aint cheap. The basic model in 1941 would have cost a week's wages while the better models would have cost half of a monthly wage. Parker were considered good, reliable pens back then, but not fancy, luxury pens. I'd waver you'd care a lot in the 1940s if something went wrong with your fountain pen.

Per Enestro Solar:

 The Parker “51” was an expensive pen. Even the basic model at $12.50 was considerably more expensive than the Parker Vacumatic Maxima model at $10.00. The average weekly wage for a factory worker in January 1941 was $26.64.

[Parker51]

9 hours ago, Harold said:

You're missing the point, though. Even if you are capable and willing to do the repair(either for yourself or a customer), modern manufacturing makes it impossible to do the repair; often even the manufacturer can't repair the object because a primary consideration during the design stage is for the object to be unrepairable. This is not a matter of will or skill anymore, it's a matter of deliberately creating a world in which you do not get to decide what you want to do with the things you supposedly own, just so you have to keep coming back to buy more.

 

From manufacturers telling suppliers not to sell parts to third parties(this is supposed to be illegal), to using copyright law to stop people from writing replacement firmware/software, to pairing chips together so you can't swap out parts of a device when they break, to not honouring warranties for made up reasons(the burden is on the warrantor to prove that the warrantee caused the defect, but no-one ever sues them, so they keep getting away with it), the list goes on and on. At this point, you have to be a masochistic lunatic to voluntarily start a repair business outside of the few industries where repair is so ingrained in the culture that there is still some room to maneuver. Not because it's hard to do the actual repair, but because it's hard and potentially dangerous to navigate all the roadblocks erected by manufacturers and crony lawmakers.

 

We all seem to have strayed quite a long way off the original topic of this thread.

I disagree, slightly.

 

Yes, many products are not designed to be repaired, but that is not purposefully done, rather the products are designed to meet specific criteria which does not include the provision for said item to be repaired. This is most notable in regard to mobile phones, but extends to a variety of electronics.

 

It is primarily an act of omission.

 

It makes sense with regard to an item such as a cell phone which likely is going to be superseded by a newer model well before the current model might need to be repaired. 
 

The problem is when this idea which made sense for reasonably reliable products with relatively short expected functional lifespans has been extended to items which any reasonable person would expect to have a longer than 5 year lifespan, have historically had much longer life spans of upwards of a decade or more and the idea of repair has been ignored, sacrificed on the alter of increased profits, reputation be dammed. Specifically I am referring to Refrigerators, Washers, Driers and Air Conditioners. At this point I am afraid to replace the ones we have despite their age and wear because newer ones are significantly less repairable. 
 

However, I wonder how much of the often reported problems with these and other items reflect not a lack of repairability and parts, but a lack of skills, both owner and repair person. I say this after having once again reset my hot water heater, likely for the same reason I have multiple times before, a known unsolvable problem in which animal urine triggers a shutdown. I do this while knowing some neighbors have decried the inability of getting their hot water heaters repaired and the high cost of replacement. I also have completed three repairs of our washing machine after finding good videos of how to do the repairs and locating reasonable costing parts. And I have done the same with our lawn mower, it’s repair being extremely simple. 
 

So some things like phones are glued together supposedly for lightness and are largely unrepairable, but other items are actually held together with replaceable fasteners and can be fixed.

 

But, then there are some items such as certain model Teslas which were made with memory storage devices which are progressively degrading and which if not eventually replaced will render the vehicles inoperable, despite the non computer parts not being worn out. That I really don’t think was neither done purposely, nor inadvertently, rather it was simple incompetence due to a rush of the design and a need for rapid production, a problem endemic of automobiles throughout their history, dating back over a hundred years at least.

 

[Harold]

10 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

You go too far in your accusatory claim, and in doing so make it invalid. Pens, and other writing instruments remain tangible objects over which owners can have clear title over legally; and they indeed get to decide what they want to do such private property, within the confines of applicable laws and the limits of their own capability. Unlike digital media content, software, and other types of intellectual property, customers are not merely licensed to use the content or functionality of those “things you supposedly own” in restricted ways by legal agreement with the owners of the trademarks and intangible products the customers “buy”.

 

However, it is rarely part of the legal or commercial agreement, when you buy a pen or even an automobile and gain clear title of the object, that the manufacturer and/or supplier will also provide (or enhance your) capability, or give you access to as much support as you may subsequently desire or need, to conduct unauthorised repair, modification, or adaptation of the products on your terms. Unauthorised does not mean you are not allowed to do it, by law or otherwise; and you can decide to proceed anyway even if you end up failing in your endeavour while voiding all warranties and guarantees in the process. It is irrelevant whether you are used to, and/or tacitly expect, manufacturers to “let” you do something by providing support or at least making it easy to do what you want to do with the units of the product you own. Fountain pen manufacturers have no commercial obligation to teach you how to write with a pen, or provide you the means to acquire ink with which to refill and continue writing the pens you own, if they do not also produce and/or sell inks; so there is no valid reason to assume by default that mechanical objects are designed to be repairable by you, with or without a cache of technical knowledge, manual agility, and professional tools that you may be proud of also supposedly having.

 

Nobody is sabotaging what you already have. They may be “creating a world” in which your old know-how, skills, and expectations are no longer applicable, useful, or valid; but there was never any agreement with them to preserve the status quo from your perspective.

 

I wasn't talking specifically or exclusively about fountain pens, because the person I was replying to wasn't either. I was merely describing societal trends that I think are detrimental to those societies at large. Just because the law or common practice is a certain way, that doesn't make it desirable. I don't care if a company's product happens to be hard to repair, but I do care if they are deliberately trying to prevent you from repairing it without their blessing.

 

And there are obvious examples in the fountain pen world: I supposedly can't open up my Pilot Custom 823 or my Montblanc 149 without automatically "voiding the warranty", even though that is an expressly illegal practice for products sold in the US under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. Why are pens glued shut in the first place? Because they were deliberately designed that way, save a few examples where glue really is the only viable option to achieve a certain visual design. This practice has gone as far as to infect the military of pretty much any country that buys Western equipment, so there are no safe havens.

[TSherbs]

5 hours ago, Harold said:

Just because the law or common practice is a certain way, that doesn't make it desirable....

Agreed. 

[JohnEbach]

I bought an M800 before the changes to the barrel and am happy to say its a good pen, a little less expensive than my Montblancs but they are both good writers.  I tried for one of the new red ones but haven't gotten one yet.   The M800 is a nice size and feel.  

[Calabria]

On 10/3/2022 at 2:36 PM, Mike B said:

Well.

 

When I hit that awkward age a while back, I had a couple of major decisions to make.

 

I opted to stay married.

 

And instead of a sports car, I elected to pick up a snazzy red and black Pelikan 600 (translucent stripes).

 

So far, at least, both choices have remained cost-effective.

Hahahaha 

[USG]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:27 PM, JohnEbach said:

I bought an M800 before the changes to the barrel and am happy to say its a good pen, a little less expensive than my Montblancs but they are both good writers.  I tried for one of the new red ones but haven't gotten one yet.   The M800 is a nice size and feel.  

It's a small thing but not being able to check the ink level is very annoying.  I keep holding my Blue M800 (with the barrel  replaced), up to the light to see the ink level.... and there's nothing.  If I didn't know better I'd think it was a fake.  Referencing the ink level has become like a habit with Pelikans and now this...

Pelikan doesn't care....

But that might be a mistake because now that Pelikan has abandon the see through barrel, it opens  the door for a Chinese company to reproduce it..  I'd have no hesitation in choosing a Chinese copy of my original barrel over the new opaque Pelikan version, or maybe buying a Chinese Pelikan clone and installing a Pelikan nib.

Pelikan should restore the ink view.

 

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, USG said:

But that might be a mistake because now that Pelikan has abandon the see through barrel, it opens  the door for a Chinese company to reproduce it.

 

Chinese fountain pen manufacturers could always have reproduced a Pelikan Souverän design, with or without a see-through barrel, if it thought there was a market and significant profit potential for it. Without using Pelikan's trademarks on the nib face, cap finial and cap band, they probably would not even be in legal trouble for doing so.

 

3 hours ago, USG said:

I'd have no hesitation in buying a Chinese copy of my original barrel over the opaque Pelikan version, or maybe buying the Chinese Pelikan clone and installing a Pelikan nib.

 

If Chinese manufacturers have not bothered with making Pelikan Souverän clones with see-through barrels before, I can't see why they would choose to do so now. If you want a similar looking design, you can get a HongDian N1-S, but it isn't a clone in that its size is neither that of the M600 nor that of the M800; and of course HongDian isn't going to bother with building a pen body around Pelikan's M6xx or M8xx nib housing specifications.

 

[USG]

19 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Chinese fountain pen manufacturers could always have reproduced a Pelikan Souverän design, with or without a see-through barrel, if it thought there was a market and significant profit potential for it. Without using Pelikan's trademarks on the nib face, cap finial and cap band, they probably would not even be in legal trouble for doing so.

 

 

If Chinese manufacturers have not bothered with making Pelikan Souverän clones with see-through barrels before, I can't see why they would choose to do so now. If you want a similar looking design, you can get a HongDian N1S, but it isn't a clone in that its size is neither that of the M600 nor that of the M800; and of course HongDian isn't going to bother with building a pen body around Pelikan's M6xx or M8xx nib housing specifications.

 

I'm just being crabby tonight, but You have a point, they haven't done it yet.

But why not build a pen that can take Pelikan nibs or Aurora nibs?

Or wait a minute, how about a universal pen with removable collar-adapters that would accept Other major manufacturer's nibs.

[A Smug Dill]

35 minutes ago, USG said:

Or wait a minute, how about a universal pen with removable collar-adapters that would accept Other major manufacturer's nibs.

 

The Majohn P136 already accepts no.32, no.35, JoWo, and Bock nibs, to cater to those who can't stop wanting to swap nibs repeatedly or evangelising the practice.

 

I doubt there's a business case for building a pen that gives ‘you’ maximum flexibility without extracting from ‘you’ an extraordinary amount of spend for the supposedly desirable feature that no other player offers.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not personally against wanting flexibility or to play with swapping nibs; there is nothing wrong with it, just as there is nothing wrong with exploiting that want and make the wanters pay for it. They really have to want that, instead of simply keeping multiple pens, for convenience or ideological reasons, instead of seeing it as the cheap way to get their hobbyist outcomes.

 

However, if you truly believe there is a need and a market for it, and know without a doubt there is sustainable profit to be made from such a venture, then why not bet your shirt and a second mortgage on this thing just has so much promise it cannot possibly fail? Don't let anyone else deter you or tell you no!

 

[USG]

40 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

The Majohn P136 already accepts no.32, no.35, JoWo, and Bock nibs, to cater to those who can't stop wanting to swap nibs repeatedly or evangelising the practice.

[snip]

However, if you truly believe there is a need and a market for it, and know without a doubt there is sustainable profit to be made from such a venture, then why not bet your shirt and a second mortgage on this thing just has so much promise it cannot possibly fail? Don't let anyone else deter you or tell you no!

 

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha  you're very funny...LOL  😄 

I'm definitely a nib swapper, aren't you? 🙂

You get a scratchy nib or one that's too fine or too broad or oops you dropped it... WhoYaGonnaCall....🤪

 

[A Smug Dill]

Just now, USG said:

I'm definitely a nib swapper, aren't you? 🙂

 

I have a pile of spare Pelikan nib units in different sizes, Aurora nib units, Faber-Castell (and GvFC Tamitio) nib units, Opus 88 #10 and #12 nib units, Edison Pen Company nib units, PenBBS nib units, HongDian nib units in different sizes, Delike nib units, naked Wing Sung nibs, Kaigelu nibs, … 

 

… but I don't see a need for a universal pen. I don't even see a good commercial reason for one company (or a few) to offer a way for someone to minimise their spend across brands that can be attributable to having to buy entire pens (such as the case with Sailor and Platinum, and largely Pilot too except for Capless nib assemblies in Western markets), unless that company gets to suck up most of that spend. Just to be clear, that means instead of buying a Pelikan M400 for ~US$270, someone can spend ~US$126 on just an M400 nib unit, and the universal pen producer gets to take >50% of the US$(270-126=)144. Now that's a win-win: the user gets to ‘save’ $70, the pen producer picks up another $74, and Pelikan is the only one that loses in that arrangement.

 

Not that it's going to give the exact same writing experience as writing with a Pelikan Souveran M400 fountain pen.

 

[USG]

I have a pile of spare Pelikan nib units in different sizes, Aurora nib units, Faber-Castell (and GvFC Tamitio) nib units, Opus 88 #10 and #12 nib units, Edison Pen Company nib units, PenBBS nib units, HongDian nib units in different sizes, Delike nib units, naked Wing Sung nibs, Kaigelu nibs, … 

 

You have a lot of nibs.  How would you like to put those nibs to use or is nibhoarding a new part of the hobby, like pens in a pen case?  You look at the nibs, handle the nibs, but you don't actually use them.... 😁

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, USG said:

You have a lot of nibs.  How would you like to put those nibs to use

 

First and foremost, I describe(d) them as spares. If the next Pelikan M20x fountain pen I order comes with a dud nib, I have more than a dozen of spares here from which I can choose any one to swap into the pen and make it write.

 

I have Pelikan M200 nib units in EF, F, M, and B width grades, and M205 nib units in EF, F, M, B, and BB width grades. Maybe once in a while I'd want to swap a different nib onto a pen body for ink testing or reviews. I can't imagine my actually wanting to write with a B nib, but maybe I'll eventually experiment with some form of (Chinese or English) calligraphic script that calls for it.

 

I have entire Sailor pens with ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold nibs covering each of the seven ‘standard’ nib types and width grades for the Profit product line (and maybe a dozen other pens onto which those nibs can be fitted), just so I can know how they write. I don't see myself actually wanting to write with a 14K gold music nib.

 

 

 

[USG]

17 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

First and foremost, I describe(d) them as spares. If the next Pelikan M20x fountain pen I order comes with a dud nib, I have more than a dozen of spares here from which I can choose any one to swap into the pen and make it write.

 

I have Pelikan M200 nib units in EF, F, M, and B width grades, and M205 nib units in EF, F, M, B, and BB width grades. Maybe once in a while I'd want to swap a different nib onto a pen body for ink testing or reviews. I can't imagine my actually wanting to write with a B nib, but maybe I'll eventually experiment with some form of (Chinese or English) calligraphic script that calls for it.

 

I have entire Sailor pens with ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold nibs covering each of the seven ‘standard’ nib types and width grades for the Profit product line (and maybe a dozen other pens onto which those nibs can be fitted), just so I can know how they write. I don't see myself actually wanting to write with a 14K gold music nib.

 

 

 

Spares, I can see that. It seems like you have an awful lot of spares.  And I certainly see your point about not wanting to write with a music nib so I wonder why you bought one? 

[txomsy]

As for  the Chinese thingy...

 

May I suggest that the lack of interest may be due to internal market trends? If the internal market moved away from see-through windows long ago and didn't maintain them, it may seem like an insurmountable slope now to local manufacturers as they do not see any reason locally to feel forced to do them, and see it easier to follow the easiest path.

 

And in this line, may I also suggest that you are all forgetting Indian subcontinent manufacture (including Pakistan et al.) who have kept making eyedroppers and piston fillers with see-through windows continuously? A quick look at FPR should show some. Granted the one I have does not leave a great impression of quality, but I went for the cheapest, and even so, it is not too different (body-wise) some some NOS 50s German pens.

 

If instead of concentrating all you attention in China, you are able to move away to other markets, you may find that there are many nice alternatives to chose from at very nice prices.

 

China is not the end-it-all of world production.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, USG said:

And I certainly see your point about not wanting to write with a music nib so I wonder why you bought one? 

 

Three, actually. A Pilot (size) no.5 14K gold Music nib on a Custom 74 pen (which I sold), a Sailor ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold Music nib on a Profit Standard pen, and a Platinum 14K gold Music nib on a #3776 Century pen. Just to see what they're like and how they perform.

 

I like having my personal ‘library’ of stuff on hand, on the off-chance I want to look up or find out something.