Looking for FP inks which do well on pergamenata

[inkstainedruth]

I had posted the same query to an old thread last week but haven't had any responses, so I'm trying again.

I was talking to a couple of people in my choir last week about pens and one woman was looking for inexpensive FPs to start budding calligraphers out with -- but she doesn't like the ink that come with the Pilot Plumix pens.  SO I said that I'd try to see if the scribal people on FPN had any recommendations for inks -- particularly for use on pergamenata (the "vegetal" parchment-type paper), after checking to see which converter (if any) will fit in a Plumix (and it turns out that Plumes do take converters as well as cartridges).

So....  Anyone have any suggestions (or warnings) about specific inks on pergamenata?  She had tried the Pilot Parallels but those are too broad a nib for the work she does, and was looking at the Plumix (I'm also going to try to ink up my stub-nib Metropolitan and see how she likes that pen).

Thanks in advance.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth 

[arcfide]

Is this the paper? 

 

Pergamenata - Fedrigoni Paper

 

Based on that technical data sheet it seems to be fairly heavy paper and almost seems like it should be fountain pen friendly, though I have none of it to try. 

 

Was there something that this woman didn't like about the included inks? Did they exhibit too much shading or some other issue? 

[inkstainedruth]

That's probably the right stuff.  I've never used it so I don't know much about it (I had to email her to ask how to spell it so I wouldn't screw the name up when posting the query).  

Not having a Plumix or a Parallel myself, I don't know what ink is included (I'm presuming that it's the standard Namiki Black or Namiki Blue).  

My friend also didn't like the included cartridges of ink in a Manuscript calligraphy set -- but didn't want to waste her (dip pen) iron gall inks, either.

I'll try to talk to her again at choir tomorrow night and find out what the issues had been, and also bring along the stub nib Metropolitan to see how she likes writing with it (I think she's looking at the Plumix as a "starter" pen to recommend to budding calligraphers); they ARE a fair amount less expensive than a Metropolitan, but I fear that they might not hold up over the long haul as well as a more solid pen might.

I may also see if I can get a scrap of it from her at some point to do some swatch tests on my own with the various black inks I've accumulated over the years that I like in general (Noodler's Heart of Darkness, Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black, and Iroshizuku Take-sumi -- and, to some extent, Pilot Namiki Black, which is my husband's go-to ink for his VP) as well as some that I'm on the fence about (Noodler's Old Manhattan, Sailor Kiwa-guro, and modern Quink Black).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[arcfide]

1 minute ago, inkstainedruth said:

That's probably the right stuff.  I've never used it so I don't know much about it (I had to email her to ask how to spell it so I wouldn't screw the name up when posting the query).  

Not having a Plumix or a Parallel myself, I don't know what ink is included (I'm presuming that it's the standard Namiki Black or Namiki Blue).  

My friend also didn't like the included cartridges of ink in a Manuscript calligraphy set -- but didn't want to waste her (dip pen) iron gall inks, either.

I'll try to talk to her again at choir tomorrow night and find out what the issues had been, and also bring along the stub nib Metropolitan to see how she likes writing with it (I think she's looking at the Plumix as a "starter" pen to recommend to budding calligraphers); they ARE a fair amount less expensive than a Metropolitan, but I fear that they might not hold up over the long haul as well as a more solid pen might.

I may also see if I can get a scrap of it from her at some point to do some swatch tests on my own with the various black inks I've accumulated over the years that I like in general (Noodler's Heart of Darkness, Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black, and Iroshizuku Take-sumi -- and, to some extent, Pilot Namiki Black, which is my husband's go-to ink for his VP) as well as some that I'm on the fence about (Noodler's Old Manhattan, Sailor Kiwa-guro, and modern Quink Black).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

I think it would be really helpful to figure out *what* she's complaining about in terms of the inks, especially on that paper. I know that John Neal bookseller's tends to emphasize Pelikan 4001 Black as their go to basic black ink for practicing calligraphy with a fountain pen. 

 

I'm imagining two competing problems that might be likely. The first would be if the ink shades excessively and someone is looking for the richer, more solid tones of an ink with more viscocity such as you can find in a dip pen. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I could imagine someone who's training in fine detail work not liking the spread of some inks on some papers, which would interfere with the hairlines. Especially some of the fancier Textualis Quadrata styles which are popular with teaching beginners would possibly fall under this criticism. 

 

Depending on the problem, it would seem to suggest two potentially very different solutions for ink. 

[txomsy]

Without more detail, I'd say any ink should do.

 

Some problems may be it takes longer to dry, so you may want a drier ink, and it may smear. Depending on the quality it may have see through... Most issues can be solved easily by being more patient or careful or using reactive inks like IG, but that may net be for everyone or fit one's needs.

 

I can't judge from the pictures, bit often parchment is half transparent, less absorbent and with a satin-like surface. I would have to see or touch that one to have a better idea.

[inkstainedruth]

Well, hopefully she'll be at choir tonight so I can get more particulars from her.  But thanks for everyone's answers so far.  

I do know that she was complaining that the Pilot Parallel nibs were too wide for some of the things she wanted to do.  Which is why I'm going to ink up my Metropolitan with the stub nib and bring it along tonight to see how she likes that pen (I'm presuming that the nibs between the Plumix model and Metropolitan will be similar -- e.g., the stub nib width will be roughly the same between the two pens, especially since they both come with steel nibs).

Glad I saw the updated posts -- I almost forgot I was going to ink up the Metropolitan tonight to have her try it.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[txomsy]

The problem is that there is not "one" Pilot Parallel, just as there is not "one" stub. You may have them in many widths, from the one most typically used for "normal" writing (1.1mm) up to even 6mm wide.

 

So, if the problem is that her Pilot Parallel is too wide, maybe the solution is to use a thinner one. Unless she is already using the thinnest one available, at which point, it will all depend on her goals.

 

Smaller (0.8, 0.6mm stubs) will write thinner lines, but the line variation will be minimal. If line variation is important then an italic is better, but then, most likely, she will be better served by a custom ground italic in the size she needs.

 

[A Smug Dill]

34 minutes ago, txomsy said:

You may have them in many widths, from the one most typically used for "normal" writing (1.1mm) up to even 6mm wide.

 

I thought the narrowest of the Pilot Parallel pens is 1.5mm?

 

34 minutes ago, txomsy said:

So, if the problem is that her Pilot Parallel is too wide, maybe the solution is to use a thinner one.

 

Or reshape the nib and cut one of the corners into a curve. Didn't some mob in the US make a commercial offering out of that?

 

 

[txomsy]

You are right, my fault. The parallel starts at 1.5mm. Sorry for the mistake and thanks for pointing it out lest anyone be misled by my incorrect statements.

 

[inkstainedruth]

10 hours ago, txomsy said:

The problem is that there is not "one" Pilot Parallel, just as there is not "one" stub. You may have them in many widths, from the one most typically used for "normal" writing (1.1mm) up to even 6mm wide.

 

So, if the problem is that her Pilot Parallel is too wide, maybe the solution is to use a thinner one. Unless she is already using the thinnest one available, at which point, it will all depend on her goals.

 

Smaller (0.8, 0.6mm stubs) will write thinner lines, but the line variation will be minimal. If line variation is important then an italic is better, but then, most likely, she will be better served by a custom ground italic in the size she needs.

 

That was my guess -- that she was using the finest nib width Parallel. 

I ended up not going to choir, but I took notes based on what people have said here so far, and will send her email at some point.  And then next week will try to remember to have both my stub-nib Metropolitan and stub nib Decimo inked up (although admittedly the rhodium plated 18K gold nib is going to be a way different experience than the steel nib on the Metropolitan.  Trying to decide if I should ink both of them up with 4001 Brilliant Black or to do that in one pen and some other black ink in the other (it's currently a toss up between Noodler's Heart of Darkness and Iroshizuku Take-Sumi -- all three of which are black inks I really like for different reasons and for different purposes).  As for the difference between a stub and an italic, I suspect it would depend on what hand is being used on the scroll -- and also, quite possibly, for any sort of illumination -- SCA scrolls can be quite elaborate, especially in kingdoms where the scribes go out of their way to individualize the scroll wording and design to the recipient.  I saw a photo uploaded a couple of weeks ago to the (unofficial) kingdom scribal page that was done specifically for a guy who had been around for nearly 3 decades but had never gotten a scroll when he got his AoA (the lowest level award that a kingdom gives out) and some friends conspired to make him one.  As a scribe himself, he was just awestruck and humbled, and that the scroll was not just a generic "Be it known to all..." scroll makes me just so proud to be in the kingdom I'm in.  

My husband once got a scroll that was actually a "promissory" for the ACTUAL award scroll and we didn't realize that it wasn't the "real" scroll (the artwork includes a picture of him stirring a pot with a very longhandled spoon held in his teeth -- which we thought was HILARIOUS; but the people who were doing the ACTUAL scroll (in combination with a different award he was being given later during the same reign, and which were being done side by side on one page in the same style (and included cut out designs in the borders) were NOT amused by what the other scribe had done (I suspect that it was that "This is too nice to be just a promissory...").

Anyone have a clue as to what ink are in the cartridges for the Parallel pens and/or the Plumix pens?  I'm guessing that it might be Namiki Black, which is the ink my husband uses in his Vanishing Point.  

Ironically, we never got around to having the side-by-side one framed, (I want to have something like velveteen behind it to show off the cut out sections) but the promissory is up on the wall I the living room.  Of course we also never got around to getting the "Peerage" scrolls (two for him and one for me) framed either....  

To explain: Peerages -- the top level awards -- and Awards of Arms (AoA) the basic level awards are recognized throughout the entire organization.  Intermediate level awards are more specific to the different kingdoms (regions)].  The Peerages (with the exception of "Royal Peers" -- people have been King or Queen at least once) are considered to be equivalent level to Knighthood (the best and most chivalrous fighters); I have been elevated to the Order of the Pelican (equivalent to Knighthood but for service) and my husband has both a Pelican and a Laurel (the top one for Arts & Sciences).  Also, much newer, is the Order of Defense (for the rapier people, who wanted to be recognized for their prowess in the lists the way the Knights are -- as a result there are a lot fewer Masters of Defense so far; they haven't been around since the very beginning the way the Knights (and Master of Arms -- those people who choose to not swear fealty to the Crown the way the Knights do).

Of course getting a Pelican gave me an excuse to buy what -- at the time -- was my most expensive pen EVER (by far): the 1990s era Pelikan M400 Brown Tortoise.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[amberleadavis]

Ruth the ink that comes with the Plumix isn't the standard Pilot stuff. It is not as wet as the ink that comes with the parallels and if she likes that ink, then she should just use those in her Plumix.  The Plumix writes drier than the Parallel.  She should start with a wet ink if possible. 

[inkstainedruth]

Just got home from MA and she said that the inks she's tried tend to "bubble up" and not stick well.  She apparently has also had the issue with the ink which comes with "calligraphy pens" (I've asked her to tell me what other brands she's had issues with; and also asked if she has any scraps of pergamenata for me to be able to test different inks on.)

Someone at the Commonwealth Show on Saturday (working the Bob Slate's table, IIRC) said that the ink for the Parallels is a slightly different formula from other Pilot inks, in order to flow better in those.  I've contacted PilotUSA to confirm that, but probably won't hear back right away, since their Customer Service Dept. is only on M-F during business hours -- they might not see the query before sometime tomorrow at the earliest.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[arcfide]

5 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

Just got home from MA and she said that the inks she's tried tend to "bubble up" and not stick well.

 

That very much sounds to me like how some people describe shading. My guess is that the inks are shading too much, and she doesn't like that. Or, if the paper is *very* glossy, then it could be that the inks are literally beading on the page. 

[txomsy]

Yuk, that (the beading thing) was my impression as well.

 

"Parchment-like" paper tends to be glossy and not too absorbent, demanding specific inks. The advantage of a typical FP over a throwaway pen is you can play with inks and choose the best to your purpose.

 

I would advice her to decide the nib widths she wants to use and get FPs with those nibs, then play with inks.

 

I would have to check once back home. I have some parchment-like paper (needs not be similar in any way to hers) and could try a few inks. I seem to remember that IG inks did well (e,g. Rohrer & Klingner Salix and Scabiosa) as well as over-saturated inks (e.g. Nitrogen OS, Troublemaker Simoun) but one has to be patient with the dry-up times. But don't take me too seriously, I'm pulling feeble memories.

 

 

[XYZZY]

I have never used Pergamenata paper, but when reading about it in this thread I spent a bit of time reading about it.  A couple common comments about it are that ink does not absorb: I think this is probably intentional, because that makes it similar to real parchment.  A nice side effect of that is that you can "erase" mistakes by scraping dried ink from the surface using a sharp knife (and I assume practice and patience).  The other thing is that Pergamenata is apparently very prone to hand oils.  Many people recommend first treating it with pounce or gum sandarac before using it, as well as taking extra care to ensure your hands do not contact the paper while working with it, for example by using another piece of paper between your hand and the Pergamenata, or by wearing cotton gloves.  My guess is that it's the oil that may be causing the problems for your friend.  Just google "pergamenata pounce" and start clicking/reading. 
 

ETA: http://medieval-whimsies.blogspot.com/2012/01/preparing-pergamenata.html is a pretty simple howto for prepping the paper.

 

I'm really intrigued by the paper, and am tempted to just buy a couple of sheets.  But I would probably learn more about it by having one of our ink experts try it, so I'm definitely hoping that @inkstainedruth manages to score some 😉

[inkstainedruth]

Well, unfortunately, she wasn't at choir tonight, so I don't know what her definition of "bubbling actually was).  Although I did email her with what people had said up through yesterday.  And I did consider the possible need for protecting the piece from hand oils, but didn't think to mention it to her  -- or, for that matter, pre-treating it with something like pounce.

And of course I don't know whether she's even got scraps available, because I don't know what size(s) pergamenata comes in, or what size some of her pieces have to be.

Ironically I do know a couple of people who have been MAKING parchment (and/or dyeing it) -- including the person who gave me the Monteverde Strata and my husband the Hondian 6013(?) pen.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[grayautumnday]

On 9/11/2022 at 12:07 PM, inkstainedruth said:

That's probably the right stuff.  I've never used it so I don't know much about it (I had to email her to ask how to spell it so I wouldn't screw the name up when posting the query).  

Not having a Plumix or a Parallel myself, I don't know what ink is included (I'm presuming that it's the standard Namiki Black or Namiki Blue).  

My friend also didn't like the included cartridges of ink in a Manuscript calligraphy set -- but didn't want to waste her (dip pen) iron gall inks, either.

I'll try to talk to her again at choir tomorrow night and find out what the issues had been, and also bring along the stub nib Metropolitan to see how she likes writing with it (I think she's looking at the Plumix as a "starter" pen to recommend to budding calligraphers); they ARE a fair amount less expensive than a Metropolitan, but I fear that they might not hold up over the long haul as well as a more solid pen might.

I may also see if I can get a scrap of it from her at some point to do some swatch tests on my own with the various black inks I've accumulated over the years that I like in general (Noodler's Heart of Darkness, Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black, and Iroshizuku Take-sumi -- and, to some extent, Pilot Namiki Black, which is my husband's go-to ink for his VP) as well as some that I'm on the fence about (Noodler's Old Manhattan, Sailor Kiwa-guro, and modern Quink Black).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Parallels come with Parallel ink cartridges - it's Pilot's mixable ink line, comes in like 10-12 colors.