Is this vintage Waterman ideal nib a broad size or medium?

[kavanagh]

Dear Colleagues,

1) I wanted to ask if this vintage Waterman Ideal Fountain Pen has a medium or broad nib ? - it has the number 4 stamped on it and it says made in Canada. I’ve looked at the Vintage Catalogues and it only mentions that denotes the size of the length of the nib, not how thick the writing line is. The size of the tip of the nib appears medium / broad, but then that’s my uneducated guess. 

2) Are all Vintage Waterman’s Ideal nibs 14k gold or does the 14K have to be stamped on the nib ? or is it a gold coloured steel nib?.

3) Are the 14k nibs better at semi / full flex ? ( like the Waterman 51’s and 92’s). 
4) The seller says there’s a manufacturer sticker at the base of the pen and he doesn’t want to remove it - the place where the model number is normally stamped. 

Thanks Guys.

 

[pen lady]

Looks like it could be a Waterman 94 and the nib is 14kt even though it's not stamped as such.  I'd go for that pen in a heartbeat, the nib has loads of tipping and I'll bet there's some pretty good flex there judging by the length of the tines. It's probably going to be on the broadish side of medium, but the only way to tell is by writing with it.

[kavanagh]

4 hours ago, pen lady said:

Looks like it could be a Waterman 94 and the nib is 14kt even though it's not stamped as such.  I'd go for that pen in a heartbeat, the nib has loads of tipping and I'll bet there's some pretty good flex there judging by the length of the tines. It's probably going to be on the broadish side of medium, but the only way to tell is by writing with it.

Dear pen lady,

Thank you. Yes your right about the tipping, I would have preferred a fine nib that flexes to a medium  - do you have any of these vintage pens in your rotation ?. 

[pen lady]

Don't tell anyone, but I'm a big fake!  I collect, refurbish and sell fountain pens, but, at heart, I'm a leadhead, I even use a Vac pencil to write my shopping list.  Even worse, my EDC is a ballpoint, but before you all throw me out, it is a vintage ballpoint, a Parker Jotter Debutante, so I'm not entirely letting the side down.  I used to carry a fountain pen, but I'm retired and do so little writing, it was always drying out, hence the B/P.  I do use a F/P for social writing, cards, letters etc. and my current fave is a Wyvern 404.  If you do buy this Waterman I hope it works out well for you. 

[kavanagh]

1 hour ago, pen lady said:

Don't tell anyone, but I'm a big fake!  I collect, refurbish and sell fountain pens, but, at heart, I'm a leadhead, I even use a Vac pencil to write my shopping list.  Even worse, my EDC is a ballpoint, but before you all throw me out, it is a vintage ballpoint, a Parker Jotter Debutante, so I'm not entirely letting the side down.  I used to carry a fountain pen, but I'm retired and do so little writing, it was always drying out, hence the B/P.  I do use a F/P for social writing, cards, letters etc. and my current fave is a Wyvern 404.  If you do buy this Waterman I hope it works out well for you. 

Hey, that sounds interesting. Which fountain pens do you refurbish ?. 
I promised myself I would only buy a fountain pen if I used it - but now, I’ve ended up with a fairly large collection. Fingers crossed also for the Waterman - I can’t believe how good vintage gold nibs are compared to the more modern variety.

[pen lady]

I concentrate on vintage pens mainly from the big 4 (Parker, Waterman, Sheaffer, Wahl Eversharp + Esterbrook - know that's 5)  I'm self taught but can get most models working again but I don't (or can't) handle piston fillers.  My life has enough challenges without those!  I sell mainly at pen shows, gearing up now for Toronto at the end of October, but I have sold some on-line.  Since eBay wants my banking details now they've messed up PayPal I don't sell that way any more.  If there's anything in particular you're interested in, please send me a message and we can continue by regular e-mail.  I do have a few UK Conway Stewarts and Swans in my inventory too BTW.  You're right about vintage pens, those nibs!!!!!!!

[kavanagh]

Penlady, 

If you don’t mind me asking, did you use any of the pen repair manuals / YouTube to teach yourself? and were the tools you had to buy expensive, or did you accumulate them as your repair knowledge progressed ?. 

 

I managed to get that Waterman vintage pen. It has a sticker on the base of the pen ‘made in Canada’ which is covering the model number that is stamped there - I don’t really want to take it off. It looks almost mint and unused, but what’s confusing me is the tip of the nib - it has an arch to it,  ( slightly kinked ). The top of the tines look raised like a pattern. Not sure if this is normal for a pen of that period ?. I’ll post a picture.

[pen lady]

If the nib looks the same as the photos in your first post, that's normal for a vintage Waterman, the pen is probably from the 1930's.  If you intend using it, you might have to carefully remove the sticker though. Does it need resoration?

 

I'm old enough to be pre-''you tube''!  My first repair book was Frank Dubiel's Fountain Pens, The Complete Guide to Repair and Restoration, commonly referred to as ''Da Book''.  It has its limitations though, and I soon bought Marshall and Oldfields Pen Repair, I have the second edition, but there is a newer one out there. Another really helpful on-line resource is Richard Binder's site RichardsPens.com. Tons of info. including repair how-to.  I have amassed my tools over the years, not all are pen-repair specific, on Ron Zorn's site Main Street Pens "Articles and Essays'' he details pen repair, cheap tools.  If you can get to a pen show in the UK there may be people selling repair supplies.  If you are going to get into repair, practice on cheap ''beaters'' and be prepared to loose a few. My learning curve was horribly steep. Best of luck.

[shalitha33]

I'm no vintage expert but the slight shape to the waterman number 4 nib looks normal to me. I don't know if this is correct or not but i do have a few that shows the same thing. round sticker should be at the very base of the barrel rite ? Don't get me wrong pls,  I'm not saying don't restore and use this pen. I would highly doubt there are many 1930-1938 waterman 94s with their original stickers intact. that would make this very very special.

 

 

[pen lady]

If it is a 94, I believe the cap is quite distinctive, it has a ''stepped'' top with concentric rings. I have a 3v in my collection with its sticker on the barrel end, it says ''3v'' and the price $3.00 !!!!!!  Question to Kavanagh, what's on the sticker please?

[kavanagh]

20 hours ago, pen lady said:

If the nib looks the same as the photos in your first post, that's normal for a vintage Waterman, the pen is probably from the 1930's.  If you intend using it, you might have to carefully remove the sticker though. Does it need resoration?

 

I'm old enough to be pre-''you tube''!  My first repair book was Frank Dubiel's Fountain Pens, The Complete Guide to Repair and Restoration, commonly referred to as ''Da Book''.  It has its limitations though, and I soon bought Marshall and Oldfields Pen Repair, I have the second edition, but there is a newer one out there. Another really helpful on-line resource is Richard Binder's site RichardsPens.com. Tons of info. including repair how-to.  I have amassed my tools over the years, not all are pen-repair specific, on Ron Zorn's site Main Street Pens "Articles and Essays'' he details pen repair, cheap tools.  If you can get to a pen show in the UK there may be people selling repair supplies.  If you are going to get into repair, practice on cheap ''beaters'' and be prepared to loose a few. My learning curve was horribly steep. Best of luck.

Pen lady, I’ve attached some pictures below. I still haven’t inked the pen, but I might dip test it. I’ve tried to show the nib from many different angles - it kind of rises very subtly and then dips slightly. I opened the pen straight out of the box and took the pictures. The pen is a little dusty, but apart from that, it looks almost mint. The bottom of the nib on the feed, is stamped - patented 1932 - not sure if this is the year of manufacture.
 

This is my first venture in to ‘Vintage’ fountain pens - so far, I’m impressed by the build quality and French panache this pen brings. Thank you for mentioning those repair manuals, I’ll see if they are available in Amazon UK. Will also visit Richard Binders and Ron Zorn’s site.

 

19 hours ago, pen lady said:

If it is a 94, I believe the cap is quite distinctive, it has a ''stepped'' top with concentric rings. I have a 3v in my collection with its sticker on the barrel end, it says ''3v'' and the price $3.00 !!!!!!  Question to Kavanagh, what's on the sticker please?

There doesn’t appear to be any other sticker on the pen, apart from the sticker on the base ( in the picture ). 
 

shalitha33, thank you for your response. Any comments are most welcome ( I’m still a novice when it comes to Vintage fountain pens ).

19 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

I'm no vintage expert but the slight shape to the waterman number 4 nib looks normal to me. I don't know if this is correct or not but i do have a few that shows the same thing. round sticker should be at the very base of the barrel rite ? Don't get me wrong pls,  I'm not saying don't restore and use this pen. I would highly doubt there are many 1930-1938 waterman 94s with their original stickers intact. that would make this very very special.

 

 

[pen lady]

Lucky you, it is a 94 and the nib looks quite normal to me.  Has it been restored? If not, then don't start on this one LOL! Good luck and enjoy the ride down the vintage pen rabbit hole.

[kavanagh]

1 hour ago, pen lady said:

Lucky you, it is a 94 and the nib looks quite normal to me.  Has it been restored? If not, then don't start on this one LOL! Good luck and enjoy the ride down the vintage pen rabbit hole.

I’m not sure if it’s been restored - but it looks unused. 
Can a 94 be used as a regular writer ? or just for calligraphy / artwork ?. 

[shalitha33]

You should be able to use it for regular writing. FDW hallmark on the nib is interesting. Would it be correct to assume this is produced for exporting? 

Pen model (94) wouldn't determine the nib size / style itself. It would be a number 4 nib (hence 94) but it could be of any style. It may have been available with 7 different nib options at least. And then there will be other different line widths (accounting, accountant  etc etc) , music and artist nibs etc .



They may have also had colored keyhole nibs , but I haven't seen one myself

 

Images are from US Catalogue and there will be differences for the Canadian versions.

 

[pen lady]

Was there any information from the seller about it's working condition?  If not, you can try this, very gently  and slowly try to pull the lever down, if there's any resistance, stop, you can assume the rubber ink-sac in the barrel has hardened and will need replacing. Continuing to work that lever if there is resistance can break the filling mechanism. If the lever moves freely, then it means one of 2 things, either there's a new sac in there, or none at all!

Once you do get it working, if you like the nib, it will be a great pen to write with.  I'd be cautious about carrying it around though, it is about 90 years old, but it depends on how much care you can take.  

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

In my opinion it's totally worth using, even at work or on the go, as long as you carry it in a nice padded case and you're careful with it. I don't have this particular pen but I have a bunch of other old celluloid pens and I've found the material to be surprisingly durable. Do be careful with the nib though, that nib looks gorgeous and won't be easy to replace.

 

Don't tell anyone (🤫) but my slippery fingers dropped an early 1930's Sheaffer Balance from a height of like four feet and the pen was none the wiser. It was even in kind of poor condition before with some cracks and as far as I can tell, none of those cracks got any worse. I've had worse experiences with modern acrylic pens.

 

  

21 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

You should be able to use it for regular writing. FDW hallmark on the nib is interesting. Would it be correct to assume this is produced for exporting? 

Pen model (94) wouldn't determine the nib size / style itself. It would be a number 4 nib (hence 94) but it could be of any style. It may have been available with 7 different nib options at least. And then there will be other different line widths (accounting, accountant  etc etc) , music and artist nibs etc .



They may have also had colored keyhole nibs , but I haven't seen one myself

 

Images are from US Catalogue and there will be differences for the Canadian versions.

 

 

Huh, kind of interesting that the "jet" black color was a dollar more expensive than the pearl gray. I'd think that black would be considered a "basic" color. Maybe the gold-filled trim?

[kavanagh]

21 hours ago, shalitha33 said:

You should be able to use it for regular writing. FDW hallmark on the nib is interesting. Would it be correct to assume this is produced for exporting? 

Pen model (94) wouldn't determine the nib size / style itself. It would be a number 4 nib (hence 94) but it could be of any style. It may have been available with 7 different nib options at least. And then there will be other different line widths (accounting, accountant  etc etc) , music and artist nibs etc .



They may have also had colored keyhole nibs , but I haven't seen one myself

 

Images are from US Catalogue and there will be differences for the Canadian versions.

 

Shalitha33, thank you for taking the time trouble in uploading those wonderful catalogue pages. The nib on the vintage Waterman pen, when compared to a modern Lamy 2000 medium nib, appears about the same. 
I only ever use the Lamy for signature or making a note, but not regular writing, the lines too wide. 

[kavanagh]

9 minutes ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

In my opinion it's totally worth using, even at work or on the go, as long as you carry it in a nice padded case and you're careful with it. I don't have this particular pen but I have a bunch of other old celluloid pens and I've found the material to be surprisingly durable. Do be careful with the nib though, that nib looks gorgeous and won't be easy to replace.

 

Don't tell anyone (🤫) but my slippery fingers dropped an early 1930's Sheaffer Balance from a height of like four feet and the pen was none the wiser. It was even in kind of poor condition before with some cracks and as far as I can tell, none of those cracks got any worse. I've had worse experiences with modern acrylic pens.

 

  

 

Huh, kind of interesting that the "jet" black color was a dollar more expensive than the pearl gray. I'd think that black would be considered a "basic" color. 

LoveBigPensAndCannotLie, thanks for the response.

Yikes 😬- to drop a 1930’s Sheaffer Balance - those beauties are expensive - was it a Flat Top Oversize jade Green ?.

I’m going to dip test the 94 and fingers crossed I’ll grow to love it. 
It was a bit of an opportunity catch.
I suppose the higher end models were the Waterman 55’s ?. 

1 hour ago, pen lady said:

Was there any information from the seller about it's working condition?  If not, you can try this, very gently  and slowly try to pull the lever down, if there's any resistance, stop, you can assume the rubber ink-sac in the barrel has hardened and will need replacing. Continuing to work that lever if there is resistance can break the filling mechanism. If the lever moves freely, then it means one of 2 things, either there's a new sac in there, or none at all!

Once you do get it working, if you like the nib, it will be a great pen to write with.  I'd be cautious about carrying it around though, it is about 90 years old, but it depends on how much care you can take.  

pen lady, I think it’s one of those ‘keep at home, don’t take on a Safari’ kind of pens. As much as it has a decent acrylic looking body, I don’t want to suffer ‘butter fingers’ and let it land on a hard surface. I’m going to take your advice - it’s not worth the anxiety of carrying it around. 
The seller didn’t provide any information about its working condition. I haven’t tried the lever mechanism yet. 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

10 minutes ago, kavanagh said:

Yikes 😬- to drop a 1930’s Sheaffer Balance - those beauties are expensive - was it a Flat Top Oversize jade Green ?.

 

Oh nope, it was an cigar-shaped balance, and in kind of dire condition. At some point in its life someone shoved the section of a later Balance into it which was too long and stopped the threads from engaging. I put that nib in another pen and I'm still waiting to find a compatible section. I've only been into vintage pens for a little while but I already have a whole box of random bits and pieces and nibs that don't at all fit together. 😂

 

10 minutes ago, kavanagh said:

I’m going to dip test the 94 and fingers crossed I’ll grow to love it. 

 

Hopefully you like it! These nibs have a reputation for being wonderful. One thing to keep in mind, it'll write a lot wetter from a dip test so if the line it puts out is too thick don't be too discouraged, it'll probably write a little thinner when it's got a sac in it.

[shalitha33]

its best to check the sac prior to use even if its not hardened.

I had a 100 year pen with a sac that wasn't hardened but sort of sticky instead. it would fill initially but then started to rip apart and started leaking

In my case based on its age, it is likely a replacement sac, but its best to be safe.