Pelikan 400N with 400 cap

[Nethermark]

The Pelikan 400 comes in three versions, the original 400, the 400N and the 400NN as pictured below from bottom to top

 

 

The 400N is the rarest of these. The cap of the 400N is distinct from the 400 by being longer and more tapered and having a more narrow and longer clip. The turning knob of the piston filler on the 400N is also more rounded than on the 400 

 

However, I see quite a lot of hybrid pens, where the barrel (turning knob) clearly is from the 400N, but with a 400 cap. And I always see this combination. Never a 400N barrel with a 400NN cap. So my question is: did Pelikan for some time sell the 400N with an old 400 cap? It wouldn't be the first time, fountain pen manufacturers have sold hybrid pens so they could get rid of stocks. And in that case, should it be recognized as a distinct model (400n, with lower case N, for example)?

 

 

[carola]

I suppose it is entirely possible that hybrids were sold.

And I also think it might have to do with the significantly higher prices 400N pens are able to fetch, compared to 400s and 400NNs. A 400N with a 400NN cap would be fairly easy to spot as a frankenpen, whereas a 400N with a 400 cap looks rather plausible at first glance.

[mana]

I would very much veer towards that being just an aftermarket/post-sale replacement cap from a 400 instead of a factory produced and sold hybrid. I mean, when Pelikan ceased the production of the 400 to start producing the 400N, why would they sell 400N pens with 400 caps if they are producing 400N caps at the same time? Just to get rid of the caps?

 

Also, they are marketing the 400N as a 400N. Selling hybrids in any official capacity wouldn't really make sense, it would create a marketing and credibility nightmare.

 

Ok, doing that after the production of 400N has been stopped for the 400NN to replace it? That would assume that they have a surplus of 400N pens and 400 caps. In general it is safe to say that mass production of items consisting of multiple parts (such as pens) usually happens very much in step to avoid spending money and allocating resources towards making things (inventory) that would just sit in storage and not generate revenue (such as a cache of caps for the 400). A business that is not careful with its inventory has a higher risk of going out of business, this being especially true during the resource constrained years after WWII.

 

Naturally, spare parts and repair kits were produced but even with those demand dictated what was actually produced and kept in the inventory. And we have to also keep in mind that there were 400 and 400N model pens which would need model accurate replacement parts to keep existing customers happy in the case they needed a replacement cap, barrel or filling mechanism... and this actually reminds me of a third option, a 400 cap and a barrel that has it's filling mechanism (or just the knob/spindle) replaced with a one from a 400N. Those do break too and I kind of see that as an easier thing to have happen as the filling mechanisms of the 400-series pens are identical aside from the shape of the knob (and those knobs are way cheaper parts than the cap). Anyhow... I digress.

The 400N were produced for a relatively short time (under a year) in very limited quantities so finding correct replacement caps for those would have been very tricky to begin with. This was not the case with the 400 & 400NN which were produced in far greater numbers over way longer periods of time (~6 years for 400, less than a year for 400N, ~9 years for 400NN), hence, people have had an easier time sourcing correct replacement caps for them. So yeah, I do not find that "factory produced hybrid" theory plausible. If there was any truth to it, I am sure it would have been documented in one way or the other (there would be a paper trail in the Pelikan archives). Thus far, it has not come up in any research or more serious literature on the history of Pelikan during those years.

[joss]

I have also found (and bought) 400N barrels with 400 caps. I find it difficult to believe though that the Pelikan quality department would allow that a pen with an essentially wrong cap-barrel configuration left the factory like that.

Given the short run of the 400N, and the possible shortage of original replacement parts for that model, it might be possible that a lost 400N cap was replaced by a 400 cap by Pelikan in the 1960s. But I am inclined to believe that these 'hybrid' pens are not factory originals.

[knarflj]

Fwiw, I have a 400 of some variety.  The cap at some point broke, not through misuse--it just cracked right 'round, near the top of the clip.  Pelikan (Chartpak) replaced the cap, but the replacement was not identical to the original cap (and looks like none of the three caps pictured in the original post).  I can't tell you exactly which sort of hybrid I now have, but I'm guessing similar stories are behind at least some of the other hybrids you're seeing.

[carola]

7 hours ago, knarflj said:

Fwiw, I have a 400 of some variety.  The cap at some point broke, not through misuse--it just cracked right 'round, near the top of the clip.  Pelikan (Chartpak) replaced the cap, but the replacement was not identical to the original cap (and looks like none of the three caps pictured in the original post).  I can't tell you exactly which sort of hybrid I now have, but I'm guessing similar stories are behind at least some of the other hybrids you're seeing.

 

Pictures, please?

[Nethermark]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject

On 8/26/2022 at 11:49 PM, carola said:

And I also think it might have to do with the significantly higher prices 400N pens are able to fetch, compared to 400s and 400NNs. A 400N with a 400NN cap would be fairly easy to spot as a frankenpen, whereas a 400N with a 400 cap looks rather plausible at first glance.

This is definitely part of it. But I have seen them sold by people who normally don't sell pens and basically don't know it's a hybrid. That doesn't exclude the possibility that change was made earlier though.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 1:31 AM, mana said:

I mean, when Pelikan ceased the production of the 400 to start producing the 400N, why would they sell 400N pens with 400 caps if they are producing 400N caps at the same time? Just to get rid of the caps?

 

Also, they are marketing the 400N as a 400N. Selling hybrids in any official capacity wouldn't really make sense, it would create a marketing and credibility nightmare.

I agree that it doesn't make much sense. But I was just surprised by how many hybrid 400N barrel/400 cap pens I see in the wild. I haven't counted, but my guess is, I have seen more of these hybrid pens then real 400s. It's of course entirely possible that collectors hold on to the real 400N pens, so they don't circulate, while the hybrids are sold on.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 1:31 AM, mana said:

And we have to also keep in mind that there were 400 and 400N model pens which would need model accurate replacement parts to keep existing customers happy in the case they needed a replacement cap

This is what bothers me a bit: if Pelikan would replace broken caps on 400N pens, wouldn't it be more logical, they would replace it with 400NN caps? After all, those would be the ones in current production at that time. It could of course be, Pelikan kept a stock of replacement parts and had run out of 400N replacement, but still had 400 caps and used those.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 1:31 AM, mana said:

and this actually reminds me of a third option, a 400 cap and a barrel that has it's filling mechanism (or just the knob/spindle) replaced with a one from a 400N

That is a possibility I hadn't thought of, but is absolutely possible. But this should only explain a small part of the hybrids, as I assume, this would be a rare occurrence. 

 

On 8/27/2022 at 11:03 AM, joss said:

I have also found (and bought) 400N barrels with 400 caps. I find it difficult to believe though that the Pelikan quality department would allow that a pen with an essentially wrong cap-barrel configuration left the factory like that.

Given the short run of the 400N, and the possible shortage of original replacement parts for that model, it might be possible that a lost 400N cap was replaced by a 400 cap by Pelikan in the 1960s. But I am inclined to believe that these 'hybrid' pens are not factory originals.

I also find it hard to believe that Pelikan would do this, but I was just surprised by how many hybrids I see, and always the combination 400N barrel/400 cap, never a 400NN cap

[knarflj]

On 8/28/2022 at 2:42 AM, carola said:

 

Pictures, please?

 

I hope this will show sufficient detail:

[carola]

30 minutes ago, knarflj said:

 

I hope this will show sufficient detail:

 

I am not quite sure... Is your pen a 400 from the 1950s or an M400 from the 1980s up to 1997?

Whichever of the two, your cap is clearly a later M400 model, somewhere from 1997 to 2010 (first half if your logo has two chicks, second half if there is only one, a style introduced in 2003).

[knarflj]

9 minutes ago, carola said:

 

I am not quite sure... Is your pen a 400 from the 1950s or an M400 from the 1980s up to 1997?

Whichever of the two, your cap is clearly a later M400 model, somewhere from 1997 to 2010 (first half if your logo has two chicks, second half if there is only one, a style introduced in 2003).

 

It was bought new sometime in the mid-90s, Carola, so it must be an M400.  And only one chick on the cap logo, so the later style cap.  Thanks for the ID!

[stoen]

On 8/27/2022 at 1:31 AM, mana said:

…a third option, a 400 cap and a barrel that has it's filling mechanism (or just the knob/spindle) replaced with a one from a 400N. Those do break too and I kind of see that as an easier thing to have happen as the filling mechanisms of the 400-series pens are identical aside from the shape of the knob…

Please pardon my late joining the thread.

I’ve made some research, having also spotted several “hybrids”, and surprisingly many spare 400N mechanism knob/spindles (considering model short production period), so this can possibly qualify as “repair shop business”, which @mana lists as option #3. - One could possibly agree that putting a 400NN knob/spindle onto a 400 pen would also immediately make it appear as frankenpen. It looks some repair shops had (and some may still have) 400N knobs in surplus.

On the contrary, I’ve hardly seen any of the 400N loose spare caps.

 

I’ve also heard/read of several other remarks on the number of “hybrid” 400/N pens having been purchased or sighted, mostly in some northern european countries.

BTW, the only “proper” 400N I’ve ever seen “live” for so far is the one I’ve got (OF nib!). 

🙂

 

Much alike the Pelikan 300, I haven’t had an impression that the 400N was a really sought after pen in the collectibles market of nowadays, in spite of its scracity. Still, it is one of the nicest and best writing pens I’ve ever got.

[New PointyThings]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:24 PM, stoen said:

I’ve made some research, having also spotted several “hybrids”, and surprisingly many spare 400N mechanism knob/spindles (considering model short production period), so this can possibly qualify as “repair shop business”, which @mana lists as option #3.

 

As someone who used to buy lots of German pen parts, I've put together a few 400 frankenpens as users and never sold them as anything but users. I suspect other vintage collectors and dealers have done the same for the more common parts. And I suppose it's reasonable to assume that pen shops might have offered a cap to a customer to replace a lost one.

[stoen]

2 hours ago, PointyThings said:

As someone who used to buy lots of German pen parts, I've put together a few 400 frankenpens as users and never sold them as anything but users.

Thanks for sharing the point of view and experience, @PointyThings. What do you consider a frankenpen? May I please give an example:

IMHO, a color matching 400 newly assembled from the following “loose” parts : a 400 mechanism, a pre-1954 “script” nib unit with an early feed, a pre-1952 cap (without engraving on the ring), and a body with GÜNTHER WAGNER PELIKAN 400 engraving wouldn’t be considered a frankenpen, because even an expert couldn’t tell the difference.

I presume that “users” meant pens made for everyday writing, not necessarily pens with parts mismatch.