New Penaholic, perhaps looking for the impossible.

[GundamPharmacist]

I'm a Japanese major, so handwriting is of significant importance to me. When I complained to my friends about being unable to make kanji as small as I wanted, they pointed me in the direction of fountain pens and since then I have not looked back. I'm quite happy with the hobby, as expensive as it might be, but I may be running into a hard limit.

 

You see, as a writer of kanji, and writing in absurdly tiny spaces like the 3.7mm square grid of a Hobonichi Techo planner, I pursue ever thinner lines, to ideally get the smallest nib possible. I started with a Kakuno Fine, then an Extra Fine. I got a Vanishing Point which I love, but was sadly stolen from me. And despite my research and analysis of various reviews before I bought it, my Platinum 3776 UEF can only manage a line just as thin as the Pilot Kakuno EF. I want to use a pen as fine as possible for writing in the absurdly small spaces of a journal, in Japanese - the writing makes good practice, but the minute nature is kinda driving me crazy.

[northstar]

Hello and welcome to FPN.

[OCArt]

I think you've made a good selection by choosing a Japanese pen and the finest nib offered. Beyond this a drier ink might help a bit, you are already using great paper so that's about all you can do with the exception of having your nib ground finer-- but you are already very fine and fine nibs are not as smooth as broader ones (all other things being equal.)

[Misfit]

Are needlepoint grinds as small as the most fine Japanese nibs?  I don’t know, but thought I’d mention them. 
 

Welcome to the community. 

[I-am-not-really-here]

In fountain pen nibs the narrowest line width is (I think) 0.1mm but if the requirement is for something even finer then perhaps a technical drawing pen would be better?  There <0.1mm is achievable, though such pens quite likely need to be held completely perpendicular to the page.

[PAKMAN]

Hello and Welcome to FPN!! So glad to have you as a member!!

[Recursion]

[A Smug Dill]

Welcome to FPN.

 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:29 AM, GundamPharmacist said:

You see, as a writer of kanji, and writing in absurdly tiny spaces like the 3.7mm square grid of a Hobonichi Techo planner, I pursue ever thinner lines, to ideally get the smallest nib possible.

 

I had a look just now at list of jōyō kanji. Writing 彙 or 驚 inside a 3.7mm-tall space requires the line width to be ~0.185mm, which is doable if the paper is good. I don't like your chances of writing 鬱 legibly in such a small square space, though, with any needlepoint writing instrument.

 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:29 AM, GundamPharmacist said:

I want to use a pen as fine as possible for writing in the absurdly small spaces of a journal, in Japanese

 

So change your journal to one that has a more forgiving, e.g. 5mm, square grid, if you can't get a fine enough pen.

 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:29 AM, GundamPharmacist said:

When I complained to my friends about being unable to make kanji as small as I wanted,

 

If you're unwilling to budge on the grid size, then perhaps you're being your own worst enemy if you're frustrated by the “hard limit”.

[mallymal1]

[Paul_LZ]

[Wahl]

[amberleadavis]

I'm still contemplating writing that small. I'd never use up all my ink that way!

 

[PathfinderAFW]

48 minutes ago, amberleadavis said:

I'm still contemplating writing that small. I'd never use up all my ink that way!

 

You would if you tinkered as messily as I do! I end up getting most of my ink on my fingers and table. 😂 I go through a ton of ink even though I like EF nibs and write small most of the time! 

[amberleadavis]

51 minutes ago, PathfinderAFW said:

You would if you tinkered as messily as I do! I end up getting most of my ink on my fingers and table. 😂 I go through a ton of ink even though I like EF nibs and write small most of the time! 

 

Me too!

[GundamPharmacist]

On 7/31/2022 at 3:03 AM, A Smug Dill said:

Welcome to FPN.

 

 

I had a look just now at list of jōyō kanji. Writing 彙 or 驚 inside a 3.7mm-tall space requires the line width to be ~0.185mm, which is doable if the paper is good. I don't like your chances of writing 鬱 legibly in such a small square space, though, with any needlepoint writing instrument.

 

 

So change your journal to one that has a more forgiving, e.g. 5mm, square grid, if you can't get a fine enough pen.

 

 

If you're unwilling to budge on the grid size, then perhaps you're being your own worst enemy if you're frustrated by the “hard limit”.

 

I don’t think you’re entirely wrong on being my own worst enemy; having used a 5 mm dot-graph with a relatively dry ink, it’s considerably easier; however I also really like the layout of the Techo and I’m admittedly rather tired of stopping journals before they’re finished. Sort of a catch 22 there.

 

I have not tried a needlepoint yet, though I am considering getting a pen once I’m in Japan and seeing if it can’t be ground down a bit; other than that it might just be best to choose a different journal or see about eventually replacing my extra-fine Vanishing Point. 

[A Smug Dill]

5 minutes ago, GundamPharmacist said:

or see about eventually replacing my extra-fine Vanishing Point. 

 

A Pilot Capless 18K gold EF nib would write exceedingly finely in Sailor Kiwaguro ink, in my experience; but maybe that will do the trick for you.

 

I still think changing to a different make or type of journal is the way to go. If you can't have everything on your terms, what is the compromise you can best live with, and voluntarily choose first in accepting defeat?

 

[taimdala]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:30 PM, I-am-not-really-here said:

In fountain pen nibs the narrowest line width is (I think) 0.1mm but if the requirement is for something even finer then perhaps a technical drawing pen would be better?  There <0.1mm is achievable, though such pens quite likely need to be held completely perpendicular to the page.

 

Yes, they *do* need to be held perpendicular to the page. 

 

I used them in drafting class and beyond college. I've used Koh-I-Nor Rapidograph and Rotring Isograph technical pens and they seemed pretty interchangeable. Isographs may be a teense easier to disassemble and clean but if memory serves, either brand is pretty easy to service. 

 

 

Only make SURE your sink stopper is completely closed when disassembling the pen. I lost the needle tip of my finest-sized Rapidograph down the drain, once, and it took me weeks to get a replacement back in my impoverished student days.

 

 

Speaking of which ....

 

Back jn the 80s, I bought several sets of Rapidographs (6 or 7 pens, plus wrench and ink refills) for about 30 bucks. This was at the student center bookstore on my university's campus. 

 

Looking online just now, I see the same set goes for 3x as much. 

 

Individual pens can be had for about 22 bucks to 36 bucks at Utrecht. 

(See here, under their "Shop products" button below the picture:   https://www.utrechtart.com/products/koh-i-noor-rapidograph-pens )

 

If you buy them, definitely use them. Just like fountain pens, Rapidographs come with interchangable nibs, so you could buy a Rapidograph in a 3x0 and buy just the 6x0 nib separately to swap in.  The 6x0 size Rapidograph is extremely thin. 0.13mm, if I read the product description right. 

 

I can definitely say it's very fine. 

 

 

Just a word of caution: the nib is a hollow tube that holds a wire, that is itself encased in a stopper bead. The bead travels back and forth in the tube like a subway car and keeps the ink from dropping entirely out of the pen, while the wire transfers the ink onto the page via capillary action.

 

The TIP of the wire extends beyond the nib and contacts the page and is the reason you must hold the pen perpendicular to the page: the nib is actually more like the metal collar on mechanical pencils, only here it is designed to keep the wire perfectly straight, so as to ensure smooth action of the stopper bead/wire assembly. 

 

I have snagged the exposed tip of the wire on my paper while holding it at a more natural writing angle and thus severely compromised the wire's ability to travel back and forth inside the nib to feed more ink. (To be honest, I was really naive at that point, not realizing the relative roughness of my sketchbook paper would pose a danger to my 6x0 nib!)

 

The finer the wire, the more careful one must be when writing with it. Fountain pen friendly paper like Clairefontaine and Rhodia is smooth enough that I am confident it shouldn't snag a tech pen's tip. I am not sure how durable TR paper would be against a needle fine wire, however. TR is really thin paper and may not be able to withstand the scratchiness/needle tip of a tech pen. 

 

 

Hope this helps!

[A Smug Dill]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:29 AM, GundamPharmacist said:

… my Platinum 3776 UEF can only manage a line just as thin as the Pilot Kakuno EF. I want to use a pen as fine as possible for writing in the absurdly small spaces of a journal, in Japanese

 

I don’t usually write this small, or even want to do so but for lacking competent tools and skills. Just for the hell of it, though, I decided to have a go today and see if it can be done, using a 3.5mm square grid:

 

 

[cullercoats]

Pilot produce a PO ('posting / postal') nib which is very fine - but I am not sure if it is any finer than those you are currently using - others might be able to clarify.....

 

Welcome!

Adrian

[A Smug Dill]

I don't think Pilot's PO nib is finer than its EF nib for the same Custom model.