Why are Sailor nibs so special?

[Just J]

Giving some credence to "they wear out" claims. 

Thank you for sharing your findings!  

 

 

[recluse]

12 hours ago, Olya said:

Also, there were claims from people who speak Chinese (Mandarin probably), that Sailor's tipping wears off.

The claims were never believed, because the pics shown appeared to show different pens, so the claims were doubted, but this thread I recently read has me wondering whether it's maybe true after all (and even if so, it's stated it happens to people who write insanely much, can't understand how much exactly unless someone knows this type of school and the effort students have to go through (i.e. the GaoKao exam/student))

 

Thanks for the link, this was interesting. I wore out only one fountain pen, none of the mentioned in the discussion, that was long time ago. It didn't take an unhuman effort but the pen also was not that great. 

 

It's difficult, however, to put all these experiences together. It looks like no one ever said something to the effect "I have this Sailor, it had the typical pencil-like feedback, but in a year it was gone". Nowadays, I spread the writing load between many pens (of course) and I may never arrive at the point when I could register such transition myself. I have Sailor 1911 with the B nib for a few years and it is still the loudest among the nibs with the similar width.

[awa54]

upon inspection of my four modern Sailor gold nibs (three 14k one 21k) with a 10x loupe, I can confidently say that these all exhibit a distinct texture that's not present on other makers' tipping, nor is it seen on older Sailor tipping.

whether or not this is the sole reason for their page feel, I can't say, but it's definitely present! the 21k Pro Gear is the smoothest (writer) of the bunch and shows the least texture as well.

 

at some point, I'll try to drag out a microscope to get an even better look.

[Just J]

Wow, now that's some serious looking into! lol 

See if you can get an idea of how the working/cutting edges were formed, ie heat (cast), pressure (struck), cut/scratched &c. Should be a key in how it's originally made.  

[Paul_LZ]

9 hours ago, Strega said:

Thanks for the tips on adding tooth! On the tipping wearing, I was surprised at how quickly the material on the sailor nib changed shape. It went much faster than I was used to. Of course, it was also a smaller nib than I usually work on and I was using new/different abrasive sheets so there are too many variables to know why it went so fast.

I am a real novice in such matters and admire your courage... as a matter of fact, I am a disaster at do-it-yourselk and tinkering away with things. I can use a hammer and a screw driver, and that's as far as I go. But I can do interesting things in Photo editing.. www.hani7up.com

[Olya]

Well, the anecdotal evidence in this thread seems pretty good so far! (as far as anecdotal evidence amongst a handful of people can go 😂 ) I also think the thread took an interesting turn.

 

Anyway, I do wonder what made them change their tipping if the older pens appear to have a smoother texture. @awa54 do you see a change in the tipping shape between old and new Sailors as well, or only a difference in texture of the tipping? Can you describe the texture?

 

A tipping, which has holes (going by the microscope pics I linked earlier), would I think naturally make for toothier writing as well as wear out. Something most of us are unlikely to experience, but the potential is there.

Having read a while ago that Sailor's objective is to become bigger on the Chinese market (apparently Sailors aren't rated much there), claims on Chinese forums of Sailors wearing out and wearing out much quicker than competitors' pens is pretty damning. That alone should set them in an unfavourable position with Chinese consumers.

 

8 hours ago, recluse said:

 

Thanks for the link, this was interesting. I wore out only one fountain pen, none of the mentioned in the discussion, that was long time ago. It didn't take an unhuman effort but the pen also was not that great. 

 

It's difficult, however, to put all these experiences together. It looks like no one ever said something to the effect "I have this Sailor, it had the typical pencil-like feedback, but in a year it was gone". Nowadays, I spread the writing load between many pens (of course) and I may never arrive at the point when I could register such transition myself. I have Sailor 1911 with the B nib for a few years and it is still the loudest among the nibs with the similar width.

I agree, most any of us are unlikely to experience any wear, I do wonder how much the GaoKao students write. I do think that anyone, who writes a crazy lot, has the potential to wear-out their nib, and if the texture has holes (as Sailor's appear to have) the likelihood is increased.

 

I know what you mean, my Sailor B is a typical Sailor. In so far, that it can be smooth, but sometimes strangely toothy, sometimes very unpleasantly so. I don't find Sailor nibs always enjoyable, as opposed to Pilot or Pelikan nibs for example, which I always find delightful, even when there is drag, it's not at all unpleasant like it can be with Sailor.

Even weirder, my Sailor B felt toothy and dreadful on Tomoe River, but good on Oxford Optik (on one of the many occasions when I was scribbling "Brand Model TippingSize Ink" on a number of papers).

I find Sailors temperamental, within one writing session they can go in feel from smooth to downright scratchy, something I don't experience with other brands like that.

 

To get to OP's original question, "special" is subjective, but Sailors are great to me, because they deliver a good flow of ink, whether the ink is dry or wet, but in all honesty, they don't really offer anything others don't do. For a while I was completely hooked on Sailors, and they do remain one of my favourites (because of years-long attachment??), but I do think that many get hooked on Sailor because of the gazillion LEs and SEs, it is, imo, what sets them apart the best from competitors. The sheer amoung of just different colour-ways, which I haven't even chased and yet feel fatigued when I see yet another Sailor LE in yet another colour, is simply crazy... I think no one can truly keep up anymore with it all, unless some super-fans keep a catalogue....

 

But brands, which put a smile on my face, because the writing experience is simply delightful and a real joy and the pen(s) never act like divas or dig into the paper as if suddenly claws have grown on the tipping and the writing isn't crazy loud, is Pilot along with Pelikan (modern Waterman is also good!).

[awa54]

5 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

.... I can do interesting things in Photo editing.. www.hani7up.com

 

 

I'll say! 

usually I'm not a fan of manipulated images, but your aesthetic, luminance and color choices are fantastic... 

in fact your entire portfolio is excellent.

beautiful work, thank you for the link!!

 

my own photography is much less polished and follows an unguided path to no destination in particular. having cut my photographic teeth on film and not having had access to a darkroom, my goal is most often to capture the final image in my viewfinder... Even minor cropping or exposure tweeks annoy me 😂

[awa54]

@Olya 

the texture of my four Sailor nibs all show what looks like a gently bead-blasted surface (overlapping shallow dimples), at least under such low magnification (10X triplet hand loupe).

the 14k nibs (2 fine and 1 medium) show crisp geometry, rather than being overly rounded, this differs from many other makers' tip geometry, though it's not extreme by any measure.

the three older Sailor nibs I looked at (probably all between 1975 and 1995 manufacture) show both surface polish and tip geometry that don't differ significantly from other conventional nibs.

 

 

on the subject of wear: I've seen dozens of un-tipped nibs in vintage pens that were worn out, but only a few "iridium" tipped nibs that showed any wear patterns at all, let alone worn out, or flattened tipping.

the few that have shown flat spots or significant wear have been from smaller/lesser known/budget oriented, or un-named makers, of those most have been from the early 1900s, or 1940s through 1950s Japan.

 

most of my vintage pens have "had a life" before they came to me, some showing the traces of decades of everyday use, possibly as the owner's only pen. not one of the major maker American or European pens in this collection of hundreds shows excessive tip wear, in fact missing tipping is much more common than visible wear patterns.

don't get me wrong, there are examples that need tuning because a previous owner wrote at an odd angle and the tipping wore (or more often the tines took a set), but even these examples have a lifetime of tipping material left after tuning ...this includes fine nibs.

my takeaway from this experience is that modern, high quality tipping, from makers who choose to use a big enough pellet of this material and which are used to write on acceptable quality paper, really should last for decades of everyday use and that pens which don't last are likely being abused, or have defective or poorly formulated tipping materials.

 

 

[Olya]

25 minutes ago, awa54 said:

@Olya 

the texture of my four Sailor nibs all show what looks like a gently bead-blasted surface (overlapping shallow dimples), at least under such low magnification (10X triplet hand loupe).

the 14k nibs (2 fine and 1 medium) show crisp geometry, rather than being overly rounded, this differs from many other makers' tip geometry, though it's not extreme by any measure.

the three older Sailor nibs I looked at (probably all between 1975 and 1995 manufacture) show both surface polish and tip geometry that don't differ significantly from other conventional nibs.

 

 

on the subject of wear: I've seen dozens of un-tipped nibs in vintage pens that were worn out, but only a few "iridium" tipped nibs that showed any wear patterns at all, let alone worn out, or flattened tipping.

the few that have shown flat spots or significant wear have been from smaller/lesser known/budget oriented, or un-named makers, of those most have been from the early 1900s, or 1940s through 1950s Japan.

 

most of my vintage pens have "had a life" before they came to me, some showing the traces of decades of everyday use, possibly as the owner's only pen. not one of the major maker American or European pens in this collection of hundreds shows excessive tip wear, in fact missing tipping is much more common than visible wear patterns.

don't get me wrong, there are examples that need tuning because a previous owner wrote at an odd angle and the tipping wore (or more often the tines took a set), but even these examples have a lifetime of tipping material left after tuning ...this includes fine nibs.

my takeaway from this experience is that modern, high quality tipping, from makers who choose to use a big enough pellet of this material and which are used to write on acceptable quality paper, really should last for decades of everyday use and that pens which don't last are likely being abused, or have defective or poorly formulated tipping materials.

 

 

Thank you so much for elaborating on the difference in tipping material of vintage and new Sailor pens!

I have finally a proper answer 😁

Seems Sailor changed their tipping in every possible way...

Seems also like I'd like their vintage pens much more than their modern ones...

 

On the rest of your post.. I agree. I think a bit of wear can be expected when someone uses their pen heavily, e.g. every day with lots of writing over decades. Writing the tipping away to nubs would be pretty spectacular..

 

I am still intrigued about the Chinese claims, esp in light of Sailor's type of tipping (I imagine the tipping to look a little like the moon 😂🙈) and the amount of writing done by those people, who claim tipping wears off.

 

Oh and paper should also play a role, I'd imagine.

 

A great way of testing would be to get one of those machines you can strap pens to, which write! Strap a few brands on and have the machine go day and night for some time with stops in between to assess wear!

One can dream 😂

[awa54]

[Olya]

7 minutes ago, awa54 said:

Well, this thread is getting better and better!!!

What an amazing find!!!

[awa54]

something to note: if the tipping on Sailor nibs wore quickly, people would be reporting that the "feedback" they love (or hate) so much diminishes with use, as it seems this is dependent on the surface texture of the tipping and should be polished away by wear. 

 

I too wonder if there's some extremely abrasive paper making the rounds in China? 

even if this is the case, all nibs should suffer accelerated wear from use with this paper.

[awa54]

4 minutes ago, Olya said:

Well, this thread is getting better and better!!!

What an amazing find!!!

 

 

I first saw this ad many years ago, likely on the original Pentrace forum. the internet supplied this example via Google image search, with just a few permutations on my search string 😄

[Strega]

7 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

I am a real novice in such matters and admire your courage... as a matter of fact, I am a disaster at do-it-yourselk and tinkering away with things. I can use a hammer and a screw driver, and that's as far as I go. But I can do interesting things in Photo editing.. www.hani7up.com

 

Courage and/or impatience – I can fix some things in the time it takes me to find a shipping box.  I was originally a computer engineer that did nothing mechanical, but in the last couple of decades I’ve been branching out into hobbies that encourage/need more mechanical aptitude. For example, if you take up radio control helicopter and plane flying, you can keep buying new stuff when you crash and spend lots of money, or you can learn lots of repair techniques and spend less.  And you get exposed to people who happen to have a milling machine the size of a small car in their garage, because, well why wouldn’t you?? 😀

 

A lot of mechanical stuff has repeating patterns.  Like getting the collar off a Pelikan nib unit is a lot like getting a bearing off a shaft.  So over time, I’ve been more willing to try stuff out myself.  Usually, I don’t go too far wrong. Even some of my mistakes – like an unintentional architect nib can be amusing and instructive. 

[awa54]

2 minutes ago, Strega said:

...  Usually, I don’t go too far wrong. Even some of my mistakes – like an unintentional architect nib can be amusing and instructive. 

 

 

my *intentional* attempt at an architect nib was my biggest recent failure: if I polished back from the nib slit enough to write smoothly, it was effectively just an extra fine, when the tipping came to a crisp point at the slit, then the line variation was present, but writing manners were similar to a knife 😢

[Olya]

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

something to note: if the tipping on Sailor nibs wore quickly, people would be reporting that the "feedback" they love (or hate) so much diminishes with use, as it seems this is dependent on the surface texture of the tipping and should be polished away by wear. 

 

I too wonder if there's some extremely abrasive paper making the rounds in China? 

even if this is the case, all nibs should suffer accelerated wear from use with this paper.

Do you think the texture is like that only on the surface?

 

My theory is that the whole tipping point is textured, so that even when you polish the nib (by actual nib work or even wearing off, to entertain the possibilty still), feedback would remain. You could get rid of the edges, but the hole-y tipping would remain throughout....

[awa54]

1 hour ago, Olya said:

Do you think the texture is like that only on the surface?

 

My theory is that the whole tipping point is textured, so that even when you polish the nib (by actual nib work or even wearing off, to entertain the possibilty still), feedback would remain. You could get rid of the edges, but the hole-y tipping would remain throughout....

 

 

I saw no porosity (holes) in the Sailor nibs, only a dimpled surface texture.

the nib that I own which has porous tipping is a vintage (possibly antique) BCHR lever filler.

 

(guess I'm really going to have to drag that microscope out now...)

[Olya]

5 minutes ago, awa54 said:

 

 

I saw no porosity (holes) in the Sailor nibs, only a dimpled surface texture.

the nib that I own which has porous tipping is a vintage (possibly antique) BCHR lever filler.

 

(guess I'm really going to have to drag that microscope out now...)

Ah ok, got it!

 

If you do drag that microsope out and have any findings, do share ☺️

[Paul_LZ]

10 minutes ago, Olya said:

Ah ok, got it!

 

If you do drag that microsope out and have any findings, do share ☺️

Yes, please do

[Paul_LZ]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:53 PM, mhwombat said:

@Paul_LZ if you're curious to know more, check out this video on eyedropper conversion https://www.jetpens.com/Eyedropper-Conversion-Tutorial-with-the-Pilot-Petit1/vd/11

Excellent, thanks