Why are Sailor nibs so special?

[awa54]

5 hours ago, Just J said:

I've been picking up a few cheap-o's to learn on; ordered 6 JH X159's for ~$4.50 ea in misc colors just yesterday, along with 3 #5 & 3 #6 JH nibs for experimentation.  

 

 

 

 

I've been doing nib work for two decades.... it's just a matter of whether or not to impose my own ideals over those of Sailor.

[Paul_LZ]

6 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

I've been doing nib work for two decades.... it's just a matter of whether or not to impose my own ideals over those of Sailor.

Well, this is ideally what many wish to do but cannot even contemplate such ventures due to lack of knowledge

[awa54]

2 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

Well, this is ideally what many wish to do but cannot even contemplate such ventures due to lack of knowledge

 

 

very true, years of practice on low value pens was key to my current confidence in nib tuning, as was a general level of mechanical competence and the already known (and somewhat adjacent) skill of sharpening.

 

in addition, with age, one at least hopes to gain both wisdom and patience... these attributes are key to getting satisfying and non-destructive results when tuning, or re-profiling a nib (good magnification is essential as well!).

 

😃

[Karmachanic]

9 hours ago, awa54 said:

it's just a matter of whether or not to impose my own ideals over those of Sailor.

 

It is my understanding that the compostion of Sailor nib tipping is peculiar to Sailor, and is responsible, for the most part,  for the kineasthetic, pencil-like feedback experience.  So one might change the shape, but will have to live with the feedback.

[Paul_LZ]

3 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

 

very true, years of practice on low value pens was key to my current confidence in nib tuning, as was a general level of mechanical competence and the already known (and somewhat adjacent) skill of sharpening.

 

in addition, with age, one at least hopes to gain both wisdom and patience... these attributes are key to getting satisfying and non-destructive results when tuning, or re-profiling a nib (good magnification is essential as well!).

 

😃

Thanks!

 

[Paul_LZ]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

It is my understanding that the compostion of Sailor nib tipping is peculiar to Sailor,

Didn't know that!

[Olya]

4 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

Didn't know that!

See here

 

 

I have smoothed one Sailor nib and it helps in so far, as it softens the sharp edges on the side (of the triangle tipping/cut), but that nib still doesn't feel as nice and smooth as, say, my Pilot nib of same tipping size.

 

In my very limited experience (and I rarely ever fiddle with nibs, I did smoothing twice only..), I'd say it's true that metal composition is different amongst manufacturers and plays a role in writing feel (and sound! Sailors are fairly loud and sometimes the sound makes it feel toothier than it actually is....).

 

[Just J]

7 hours ago, Paul_LZ said:

what many wish to do but cannot even contemplate such ventures due to lack of knowledge

But "These are the days of lasers in the jungle..." 

& instruction galore on YouToob! lol 

 

4 hours ago, awa54 said:

...practice on low value pens was key to my current confidence in nib tuning, as was a general level of mechanical competence and the already known (and somewhat adjacent) skill of sharpening.

 

5 hours ago, awa54 said:

...In addition, with age, one at least hopes to gain both wisdom and patience... these attributes are key to getting satisfying and non-destructive results when tuning, or re-profiling a nib

 

My attributions and strategy as well - in reverse order from as expressed however.  I had started to ask you to give a singular best piece of advice you could offer to achieve your present skill level, but half a century of tying flies & sharpening hooks (& knives) had already answered that for me, as you did there. lol 

 

 

 

[Paul_LZ]

20 minutes ago, Just J said:

But "These are the days of lasers in the jungle..." 

& instruction galore on YouToob! lol 

 

My attributions and strategy as well - in reverse order from as expressed however.  I had started to ask you to give a singular best piece of advice you could offer to achieve your present skill level, but half a century of tying flies & sharpening hooks (& knives) had already answered that for me, as you did there. lol 

 

 

 

Fly fishing is a DREAM!!! And if you tie flies and sharpen hooks, you must be on the right track and your advice and thoughts ought to be taken seriously!

[Paul_LZ]

22 minutes ago, Just J said:

instruction galore on YouToob! lol 

Well, I noticed that many YouTube colleagues express an issue (in my filed of expertise: Photoshop and Lightroom) in, say, 30 minutes, when the same could be done in a clearer and easier way to understand in 10 minutes. I take YouTube with a pinch of salt (and ground cardamom, for a nice flavour), except of course for a few that tackle issues well, without overacting and clean from unnecessary paraphernalia, 🙂

[Just J]

I think one attribute of wise people is they learn quickly who they want to learn from.  

 

[awa54]

10 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

It is my understanding that the compostion of Sailor nib tipping is peculiar to Sailor, and is responsible, for the most part,  for the kineasthetic, pencil-like feedback experience.  So one might change the shape, but will have to live with the feedback.

 

 

I could certainly see that being a cause, though several folks have indicated that a final polish with 0.5μ abrasive will give these nibs a slicker page feel.

 

I have a vintage (1920s?) BCHR pen that sounds and feels a bit like a pencil most of the time, though occasionally is sings as well on longer strokes, the nib has significant porosity... not like a sponge or anything, but there are tiny pits all over the surface.

it's a great writer despite that quirk, so I've left it alone, the same way that I've left my gold Sailors as they are.

with the old pen, I'm also unsure of whether the porosity was caused by gasses cast into the tipping alloy, which would likely permeate the entire tipping structure, or if part of the alloy segregated and was eroded out of the surface by ink or time.

[Chimera01]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:58 PM, Just J said:

 

I just bought one of those!  Don't have any music nibs & been wanting to try one - knowing Sailors rep for good ones won me over.

Getting the red with gold furniture, should be here by end-of-month.  Already getting excited! [Whee!] ~8》 

I have a Sailor 1911 Black with Rhodium Trim with a music nib which I find quite wonderful but very specific. It reminds me of my TWSBI Diamond 580 AR but sharper (if I have it smoothed it won't be so useful for writing music anymore, though!). It's currently inked with Robert Oster Fire & Ice, which I'm finding a great combination with the pen. But I'm tempted to try it with the Sailor Manyo Haha, or even the Purepens Barafundle which I've seen reviewed most favourably in these pages. Quite the difference in price, especially if Barafundle fundamentally does the same thing (only better, maybe?) Would love to hear your thoughts once you receive the pen... so much of my collection is Sailor!

[Strega]

I did some DIY nibmeistering on a Sailor Nib and got the size/shape result that I wanted but inadvertently lost the characteristic “feedback” that some people like and some don’t.  For the moment I’m leaving it “as-is” but I'm curious as to how to add it back if I ever choose too.

[Paul_LZ]

11 hours ago, Chimera01 said:

I have a Sailor 1911 Black with Rhodium Trim with a music nib which I find quite wonderful but very specific. It reminds me of my TWSBI Diamond 580 AR but sharper (if I have it smoothed it won't be so useful for writing music anymore, though!). It's currently inked with Robert Oster Fire & Ice, which I'm finding a great combination with the pen. But I'm tempted to try it with the Sailor Manyo Haha, or even the Purepens Barafundle which I've seen reviewed most favourably in these pages. Quite the difference in price, especially if Barafundle fundamentally does the same thing (only better, maybe?) Would love to hear your thoughts once you receive the pen... so much of my collection is Sailor!

Eagerly waiting for my Sailor, and will certainly post my impressions here. Will ink it with the Lamy Ammonite and will try it out. Should be here in 2 or 3 weeks time

 

[awa54]

13 hours ago, Strega said:

I did some DIY nibmeistering on a Sailor Nib and got the size/shape result that I wanted but inadvertently lost the characteristic “feedback” that some people like and some don’t.  For the moment I’m leaving it “as-is” but I'm curious as to how to add it back if I ever choose too.

 

I have seen it suggested that a light finishing pass with coarser abrasive (maybe in the 3-5 micron range?, though I don't remember for certain) restores the characteristic feel of current Sailor gold nibs.

 

I'd be interested to know when this much lauded Sailor "feedback" came into existence, as all of my vintage Sailor pens (even as recent as 1990s) are smooth and glassy, just like *all* better quality nibs used to aspire to be.

[Karmachanic]

14 hours ago, Strega said:

I'm curious as to how to add it back if I ever choose too.

 

 

 

[Olya]

2 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

I have seen it suggested that a light finishing pass with coarser abrasive (maybe in the 3-5 micron range?, though I don't remember for certain) restores the characteristic feel of current Sailor gold nibs.

 

I'd be interested to know when this much lauded Sailor "feedback" came into existence, as all of my vintage Sailor pens (even as recent as 1990s) are smooth and glassy, just like *all* better quality nibs used to aspire to be.

I have seen some comments over the years from people on the fpn and on blogs how Sailor's tipping has changed, but no one's elaborated, even when asked.

 

Also, there were claims from people who speak Chinese (Mandarin probably), that Sailor's tipping wears off.

The claims were never believed, because the pics shown appeared to show different pens, so the claims were doubted, but this thread I recently read has me wondering whether it's maybe true after all (and even if so, it's stated it happens to people who write insanely much, can't understand how much exactly unless someone knows this type of school and the effort students have to go through (i.e. the GaoKao exam/student))

 

 

[Just J]

21 hours ago, Strega said:

but I'm curious as to how to add it back if I ever choose too.

 

First, you're gonna need a really incredibly tiny set of tweezers... 

 

 

On the serious side, I'd proffer best bet would be to investigate the 'science' behind how they get that characteristic feedback in the first place. And seeing as how they apparently can do it repetitively (production process) I'd wager it's something they discovered -likely accidentally - while fine-tuning individual nibs from production processing to finished quality. Some given shape & the alloys used for tipping, e.g., & the way they're mounted, produced the tactile characteristic some/most users 'feel'; Sailor recognized it, possibly developed it thru experiment, found ways to make it repeatable, stuck with it.   

 

That 'said', however, and I'm once again reminded of an old fishing buddy's favorite saying about men & their tinkerings: 

"The main thing wrong with good enough is more better."  

 

I'll explain for anyone needing one. lol 

 

[Strega]

Thanks for the tips on adding tooth! On the tipping wearing, I was surprised at how quickly the material on the sailor nib changed shape. It went much faster than I was used to. Of course, it was also a smaller nib than I usually work on and I was using new/different abrasive sheets so there are too many variables to know why it went so fast.