Why are Sailor nibs so special?

[awa54]

OK... the microscope is out and the ocular prisms are waiting for the glue to set, as the old glue had hardened and one had broken free from its mounting (and, yes apparently AO just glued the prism to a screwed plate in this design, probably made in the 1970s).

I didn't have any reference to realign the the prisms, except for the old glue, but we'll see how they align tomorrow...

 

through the one attached prism (it's supposed to be a stereo microscope), at 40x magnification the Sailor tipping looked like it had been sandblasted with extremely fine media, by comparison a '70s Pelikan, '30s Wearever and '30s Eversharp that were at hand showed smooth shiny writing surfaces.

 

if my seat of the pants prism reattachment is insufficient, then I'll have to try to find the ancient Buffalo stereo 'scope that I also own... it's old enough that no glue whatsoever was used in its manufacture, though IIRC it only has 10x and 20x settings, while the AO goes from 15x to 40x.

 

...if you hadn't guessed yet, neither of these microscopes are equipped with a camera adapter! sorry

[Olya]

  On 7/25/2022 at 4:02 AM, awa54 said:

OK... the microscope is out and the ocular prisms are waiting for the glue to set, as the old glue had hardened and one had broken free from its mounting (and, yes apparently AO just glued the prism to a screwed plate in this design, probably made in the 1970s).

I didn't have any reference to realign the the prisms, except for the old glue, but we'll see how they align tomorrow...

 

through the one attached prism (it's supposed to be a stereo microscope), at 40x magnification the Sailor tipping looked like it had been sandblasted with extremely fine media, by comparison a '70s Pelikan, '30s Wearever and '30s Eversharp that were at hand showed smooth shiny writing surfaces.

 

if my seat of the pants prism reattachment is insufficient, then I'll have to try to find the ancient Buffalo stereo 'scope that I also own... it's old enough that no glue whatsoever was used in its manufacture, though IIRC it only has 10x and 20x settings, while the AO goes from 15x to 40x.

 

...if you hadn't guessed yet, neither of these microscopes are equipped with a camera adapter! sorry

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Wonderful, thank you so much!

 

This is really fascinating, I do wonder what the nib would look like after a smoothing.

 

Thank you again!

[BaaadSheepie]

I've tried to take some comparison pics of a few different nibs... Sailor and non-Sailor for comparison.  All were taken at 60x magnification (at least as far as the microscope lenses), just holding the camera up to the eyepiece of the microscope.  They were lit with a source composed of multiple LED's in a grid pattern, so if you see that reflected anywhere in the pics, that's what the pattern is coming from.

 

First pen is a Sailor Pro Gear 21K EF nib, pretty much new:

 

Next a Sailor KOP 21K M nib, bought used, but it's a pretty new pen:

 

This one is a vintage Sailor Soft MF:

 

Finally, for comparison, a bought new, but fairly new Pilot #5 Music nib:

 

 

If there's any other examples folks are looking for, I can see if it's something I have around...

 

[Paul_LZ]

  On 7/28/2022 at 1:03 AM, BaaadSheepie said:

I've tried to take some comparison pics of a few different nibs... Sailor and non-Sailor for comparison.  All were taken at 60x magnification (at least as far as the microscope lenses), just holding the camera up to the eyepiece of the microscope.  They were lit with a source composed of multiple LED's in a grid pattern, so if you see that reflected anywhere in the pics, that's what the pattern is coming from.

 

First pen is a Sailor Pro Gear 21K EF nib, pretty much new:

 

Next a Sailor KOP 21K M nib, bought used, but it's a pretty new pen:

 

This one is a vintage Sailor Soft MF:

 

Finally, for comparison, a bought new, but fairly new Pilot #5 Music nib:

 

 

If there's any other examples folks are looking for, I can see if it's something I have around...

 

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Thank you for your time and trouble, I really appreciate it!👍

[awa54]

@BaaadSheepie

 

Thanks for the images! 

 

in light of your success shooting through the ocular, I'll have to see if I can get a few shots of mine as well...

[Just J]

 

  On 7/28/2022 at 1:03 AM, BaaadSheepie said:

I've tried to take some comparison pics of a few different nibs...

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Fascinating, to say the least-- thank you very much BadSheepie. I've got a friend who's been a metalworker for many years, I'll have him look at these & see if he can tell how the tipping was formed.

 

Now, here's some weird.  

This afternoon I received the Pilot Profit Casual with Music nib I'd ordered; can't remember if it was here or another thread someone asked me to post up when I received it, so here 'tis! 

 

First, some commentary. I thought (Pilot) Music nibs were 3-tined. Unless there's something extreme I'm missing, especially after comparing with those micro-photos, mine has only two. ?? 

 

Next, I don't see any nib inscription with an 'MS', 'MU' [or other] code. [See other 'usual' markings.] Looks genuine.   ?? 

 

Next, do they have different Music nib versions? The tipping is remarkably differently shaped, and the difference doesn't appear to be due to wear or 'adjustment' - but more from being made differently, ie perhaps by design. With dissimilarities, how's the iconic feedback derived across the line? And somewhat uniformly, from the 'sounds' of it! [sorry - pure chance. lol]   

 

And lastly, the underbelly -- looks fairly gnarly!  Mind you, it might be just some dried up tooling lube remnants - as said, just received & haven't cleaned it up for use.  But biggest angst here - it doesnt show up very well in the pix, but there appears to be some rusty spots underneath! No, no, no, no, say it ain't so, Joe!!  Gold doesn't rust! The pix are nowhere as clear as Sheepie's, but best I could get with Magnifier app with the fon-cam. Have a look & tell me what you think! 

 

First, let's get past the glamour shot. [Heh]

 

Next, the shape, fresh out of the box.

And, the seamy underpinnings.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Now, here's some weird.  

This afternoon I received the Pilot Profit Casual with Music nib I'd ordered;

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That is indeed very wierd. Profit is one of Sailor's most prominent product families, and Profit Casual one of its more recent models. It's not a name one would usually associate with Pilot, for which the Custom product family is roughly equivalent. (There is the steel-nibbed Custom NS model, which is also relatively recently introduced.)

 

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

I thought (Pilot) Music nibs were 3-tined.

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That is correct; a Pilot Music nib has three tines.

 

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Unless there's something extreme I'm missing, especially after comparing with those micro-photos, mine has only two. ?? 

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As most hobbyists who are somewhat familiar with the wide range of nibs offered collectively by the Japanese ‘Big Three’ fountain pen brands would expect. (So, why the question marks?)

 

A Music nib, which is not a proprietary designation over which some brand has monopoly or control in its use, is not defined by a set number of tines and slits on it. I'm pretty sure I've come across mention of that very point by a fellow forum member very recently on FPN. In any case, that particular aspect about the Music nibs on Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor pens of this era has been well ‘documented’ and discussed online for years.

 

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Next, I don't see any nib inscription with an 'MS', 'MU' [or other] code. [See other 'usual' markings.]

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The left flank is where Sailor usually marks its nibs for type and width grade (except for the styles of nibs used in the Profit Jr/Lecoule/Fude de Mannen pens, and HiAce Neo and model 11-0073 desk pens).

 

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

No, no, no, no, say it ain't so, Joe!!  Gold doesn't rust!

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The Sailor Profit Casual (with gold trim) only has a steel nib coated with gold ion plating, and not a gold nib.

 

 

[Karmachanic]

Tipping is shaped by grinding.

Sailor MS nibs have two tines.

MS is stamped on the left side of the nib.

Steel nib. As mentioned by @JulieParadise higher up the thread.

[JulieParadise]

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Fascinating, to say the least-- thank you very much BadSheepie. I've got a friend who's been a metalworker for many years, I'll have him look at these & see if he can tell how the tipping was formed.

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As has been said already by @Karmachanic, the tipping is shaped by grinding and looks exactly like my own Music nibs by Sailor.

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

First, some commentary. I thought (Pilot) Music nibs were 3-tined. Unless there's something extreme I'm missing, especially after comparing with those micro-photos, mine has only two. ?? 

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Sailor's Music nibs have two tines, everything is as it should be.

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Next, I don't see any nib inscription with an 'MS', 'MU' [or other] code. [See other 'usual' markings.] Looks genuine.   ?? 

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The marking should by on the left side of the nib, also mentioned already by @Karmachanic.

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Next, the shape, fresh out of the box.

And, the seamy underpinnings.

 

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The nib is a steel nib, that is the difference to the more expensive models with a gold nib. It still probably is not rust.

 

Have you used the nib and how does it work for you?

 

As I had mentioned in this or another thread (I keep getting confused as there some topics in this forum that are discussed in multiple threads), I currently own three 14k Sailor Music nibs at the moment, but have had 5 steel Music nibs and also about a dozen more of Sailor's gold music nibs to work on, so from my experience I can only say I have never had a problem with these beyond maybe tuning them to write even more wet & juicy.

[Paul_LZ]

  On 7/29/2022 at 10:10 AM, JulieParadise said:

As has been said already by @Karmachanic, the tipping is shaped by grinding and looks exactly like my own Music nibs by Sailor.

Sailor's Music nibs have two tines, everything is as it should be.

The marking should by on the left side of the nib, also mentioned already by @Karmachanic.

The nib is a steel nib, that is the difference to the more expensive models with a gold nib. It still probably is not rust.

 

Have you used the nib and how does it work for you?

 

As I had mentioned in this or another thread (I keep getting confused as there some topics in this forum that are discussed in multiple threads), I currently own three 14k Sailor Music nibs at the moment, but have had 5 steel Music nibs and also about a dozen more of Sailor's gold music nibs to work on, so from my experience I can only say I have never had a problem with these beyond maybe tuning them to write even more wet & juicy.

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Thank you for clarifying those points. I will start a new topic on under the NIB section asking for some more nib specific clarifications

[Paul_LZ]

  On 7/29/2022 at 6:22 AM, Karmachanic said:

Tipping is shaped by grinding.

Sailor MS nibs have two tines.

MS is stamped on the left side of the nib.

Steel nib. As mentioned by @JulieParadise higher up the thread.

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Thank you

[A Smug Dill]

  On 7/29/2022 at 4:05 AM, Just J said:

Have a look & tell me what you think! 

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I don't see anything wrong or unusual with your pen's nib, using the one I have as a point of reference:

[Just J]

Thanks, Dill. The main difference I see in the 'business end' (tipping) is, yours is rectangular, mine's like a capital D, and I don't believe that difference is due to any grinding. No idea what difference it might make in the actual writing, perhaps in your vast range of pen knowledge you might know?  

 

Oh, and, Julie? No, I haven't had the chance to use it yet, what with the following: 

 I've picked up a kid's electric toothbrush; gonna try polishing that nib with some toothpaste, see if that might shine it up. Have to do it later tho...I've come down with Covid & not up to the task right now. Trust me folks, that stuff ain't no fun! 

[JulieParadise]

  On 8/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, Just J said:

Thanks, Dill. The main difference I see in the 'business end' (tipping) is, yours is rectangular, mine's like a capital D, and I don't believe that difference is due to any grinding. No idea what difference it might make in the actual writing, perhaps in your vast range of pen knowledge you might know?  

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This shouldn't affect how the writing looks on the page and feels for you, as the "belly" of the D is in a place where it does not touch the paper.

 

  On 8/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, Just J said:

Oh, and, Julie? No, I haven't had the chance to use it yet, what with the following: 

 I've picked up a kid's electric toothbrush; gonna try polishing that nib with some toothpaste, see if that might shine it up. Have to do it later tho...I've come down with Covid & not up to the task right now. Trust me folks, that stuff ain't no fun! 

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Toothpaste? Aren't there abrasives in it? Just try a polishing cloth or leave it as is. As long as the nib writes fine the underside is of no interest, is it?

 

Oh, and also: Get well soon, Covid is no fun, even if it is "only" a bad cold. That can be enough to feel miserable for a while, so, again: Get better soon, best wishes from Berlin! 

[Paul_LZ]

  On 8/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, Just J said:

Thanks, Dill. The main difference I see in the 'business end' (tipping) is, yours is rectangular, mine's like a capital D, and I don't believe that difference is due to any grinding. No idea what difference it might make in the actual writing, perhaps in your vast range of pen knowledge you might know?  

 

Oh, and, Julie? No, I haven't had the chance to use it yet, what with the following: 

 I've picked up a kid's electric toothbrush; gonna try polishing that nib with some toothpaste, see if that might shine it up. Have to do it later tho...I've come down with Covid & not up to the task right now. Trust me folks, that stuff ain't no fun! 

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Wish you a speedy recovery! 

Boy the way, and what I'm about to say might sound naive or unfounded, but...can't you use one of those body scrub creams one uses when showering, as they have minute sand particles that may do the grinding job? 

Os even that special scrub mechan ics use in workshops to clean their hands from grease, stains and oil....

 

[Paul_LZ]

  On 8/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, Just J said:

I've come down with Covid

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.... and if Covid provokes a sore throat or cold symptoms, a ginger based tea might help

[InkyColors]

  On 8/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, Just J said:

Thanks, Dill. The main difference I see in the 'business end' (tipping) is, yours is rectangular, mine's like a capital D, and I don't believe that difference is due to any grinding. No idea what difference it might make in the actual writing, perhaps in your vast range of pen knowledge you might know?  

 

Oh, and, Julie? No, I haven't had the chance to use it yet, what with the following: 

 I've picked up a kid's electric toothbrush; gonna try polishing that nib with some toothpaste, see if that might shine it up. Have to do it later tho...I've come down with Covid & not up to the task right now. Trust me folks, that stuff ain't no fun! 

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Sending “get well soon” wishes. 

[Just J]

  On 8/2/2022 at 9:17 PM, Paul_LZ said:

but...can't you use one of those body scrub creams one uses when showering, as they have minute sand particles that may do the grinding job? 

Os even that special scrub mechan ics use in workshops to clean their hands from grease, stains and oil....

 

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Those may well work, Paul, but, besides a few tech hurdles therein, it's decided on the difference of easy availability in the bathroom, vs having to go out, find & buy a 17.4-lifetimes supply. LOL 

 

And yes, there's abrasives in toothpaste, but using it v-e-r-y sparingly, soft bristled brush (kids), and almost a lifetime of doIng such work in my various hobbies, yada yada, but I think we'll be ok. 

 

Still, thanks for your input, it covers points later readers might well learn from. Gosh I hope that's making sense, I'm right giddy-headed at the moment!  And especially thanks for the well wishes, and the ginger tea tip! I'll see if we can scare up some tomorrow, & give it a try. I could take some good wonton soup too! LOL 

 

Gotta lay back down...Good nite! 

[A Smug Dill]

@Just J Get well soon!

 

  On 8/2/2022 at 9:18 PM, Paul_LZ said:

.... and if Covid provokes a sore throat or cold symptoms, a ginger based tea might help

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Yep. When we caught it in April, I made fairly strong fresh ginger ‘tea’ or soup every day, and kept some always on hand in a thermos flask, to soothe my wife's violent coughing (which took a fair while to clear up).

 

  On 8/2/2022 at 9:03 PM, JulieParadise said:

This shouldn't affect how the writing looks on the page and feels for you, as the "belly" of the D is in a place where it does not touch the paper.

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I agree completely; and it should have no influence on the ink flow either.

 

  On 8/3/2022 at 3:14 AM, Just J said:

And yes, there's abrasives in toothpaste, but using it v-e-r-y sparingly, soft bristled brush (kids), and almost a lifetime of doIng such work in my various hobbies, yada yada, but I think we'll be ok.

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Just keep in mind it's only gold-plating atop that Sailor stainless steel nib.

 

[Paul_LZ]

  On 8/3/2022 at 3:14 AM, Just J said:

 

Those may well work, Paul, but, besides a few tech hurdles therein, it's decided on the difference of easy availability in the bathroom, vs having to go out, find & buy a 17.4-lifetimes supply. LOL 

 

And yes, there's abrasives in toothpaste, but using it v-e-r-y sparingly, soft bristled brush (kids), and almost a lifetime of doIng such work in my various hobbies, yada yada, but I think we'll be ok. 

 

Still, thanks for your input, it covers points later readers might well learn from. Gosh I hope that's making sense, I'm right giddy-headed at the moment!  And especially thanks for the well wishes, and the ginger tea tip! I'll see if we can scare up some tomorrow, & give it a try. I could take some good wonton soup too! LOL 

 

Gotta lay back down...Good nite! 

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Stay safe, and give the old machine its deserved rest. Have a great day. I terribly enjoy your posts, you remind me of a character in the second season of Fargo, a great TV show. So, get well soon Just J, 🙂