Help with choosing a good black ink for a book project - thank you!

[OldTravelingShoe]

Dear all, 

 

I'm asking here for your help: If you had to pick a good black ink for a pen that you care about, to be used together for the next six months in a large project with tens to hundreds of written pages, what would this ink be? 

 

I've issued this request for help also on the thread that inspired me to ask it, where I shared pics and info about the pen I will be using throughout this project:

 

I've just signed my first professional book deal. (On computer systems.) There's a lot left to do and we'll see how it goes but I plan to do at least the planning and content-design in pen on paper. I already bought the pen for it, a Pilot Custom Urushi in vermillion red with 18k two-tone M nib (FKV-88SR-R-M), and I like very much my first experience with it, which happened today. 

 

The remaining details regarding the ink-search are as follows: 

 

I'm trying to decide on an ink for this Pilot Custom Urushi, M nib. I will have to draw many details and also cross-hatch large structures, and also write both small and large-sized text. I prefer wetter nibs and inks, but here I'm going to also use paper like Moleskine's Workbook (pulpy, very porous) and Leuchtturm 140 gsm (semi-rough and coated), and I'd prefer not to have much feathering. Water-resistant inks are a plus. Some shading would not be bad, but even the lightest shade must be easily legible. 

 

I'm thinking at the moment, in this order:

1. Noodler's Dark Matter - seems good, but not water-resistant. 
2. Noodler's X-Feather - but it's quite pigmented and I'm afraid it's going to clog the feed and I won't know how to clean it. 
3. Noodler's Heart of Darkness - never used it before, but the reviews are raving. May have issues with the Moleskine. 
4. Sailor Kiwa-Guro - never used it, but seems to me a (micro-)pigmented ink that you can flush away easily. 
5. Sailor Do-you - this one I'm convinced will do a good job and keep flowing (and lubricating). 
6. Pilot Take-Sumi - love this ink, but its water resistance seems just too low to consider. What if I spill even a drop of coffee? 
7. Pelikan 4001 Black - never used it, but heard good things about it and it's cousins Brilliant Brown, Royal Blue, etc. are wonderful. Same concerns about water resistance as for the Take-Sumi.
8. Platinum Carbon ink - fantastic ink, but how do I clean it after six months?! Are there strong enough but safe cleaning fluids, e.g., the Rohrer and Klingner Reiniger?

 

I'll stop here; eight is a round number in my world. 

 

I would appreciate your replies, especially today, when I'll take my decision and hope not to revisit. Do you have other suggestions? They're most welcome. 

 

Thanks, everyone. 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by OldTravelingShoe
Corrected some typos.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 7/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, OldTravelingShoe said:

paper like Moleskine's Workbook (pulpy, very porous) and Leuchtturm 140 gsm (semi-rough and coated), and I'd prefer not to have much feathering.

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Platinum Carbon Black would likely leave broader, if not woollier, lines than Sailor Kiwaguro on such paper. The advantage of PCB over Kiwaguro is that some colour will run off marks made with the latter if rewetted, whereas the former would just laugh the moisture off, which I'm confident you already know from your previous experience with PCB.

 

  On 7/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, OldTravelingShoe said:

Sailor Do-you - this one I'm convinced will do a good job and keep flowing (and lubricating).

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Sailor Shikiori Doyou has a reputation for being an effective “cleaner ink” for removing stains on plastic left by a previous fill of different ink.

 

On the other hand, while I don't have specific experience (that I can recall) with letting Doyou dry out in a pen, I have had some unpleasant surprises arising from other Sailor Shikiori inks (mainly blues and purples) drying out in a pen left unused for some months.

 

  On 7/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, OldTravelingShoe said:

Pilot Take-Sumi - love this ink, but its water resistance seems just too low to consider.

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Hmmm. Have you actively tested that ink on your target paper types for water resistance, though? (I haven't. I just might, but not right this minute.)

 

  On 7/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, OldTravelingShoe said:

Noodler's X-Feather - but it's quite pigmented

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Not that I know of. The main issue with Noodler's Ink X-Feather is its relatively long drying time; and it will also run (a little) when re-wetted, whereas X-Feather Blue doesn't.

[Karmachanic]

Wet inks, drawing, cross hatching and Moleskine/Leuchtturm paper with an M nib?  The only ink that might possibly, maybe, perhaps handle that task is Kiwa-Guro.  In my know nothing opinion. 

 

While I'm at it I'd suggest two pens.  Second one with an EF for the drawing /cross hatching.  Also in my know nothing opinion.

[OldTravelingShoe]

Many thanks, @A Smug Dill and @Karmachanic. Just for the record: I rate highly and respect much your opinions, which is why I'll:

1. Look more into Platinum Carbon Black and Sailor Kiwa-guro, and also
2. Consider having a second pen, with an EF pen (more of a which question, because luckily I have such pens around). It may even be a Pilot Falcon with SF nib or, to balance things out, a Sailor 1911 with FM nib.

 

Heh, so many choices! 

 

P.S.: I'll have to reconcile the divergent opinions, when it occasionally happens. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by OldTravelingShoe

[OldTravelingShoe]

  On 7/9/2022 at 11:05 AM, A Smug Dill said:

Have you actively tested that ink on your target paper types for water resistance, though?

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Great idea! Ongoing: trying out Take-Sumi on the main workbook and on thr secondary paper I think I'm going to use in this project. 

[OldTravelingShoe]

Update: I tried so far:

1. Pilot Iroshizuku Take Sumi
2. Platinum Carbon Ink
3. Noodler's Dark Matter
4. Rohrer and Klingner SketchINK Lotte
5. Sailor Shikiori Doyou

I had to use different pens, so these results are good enough for me but not conclusive in a general sense. 

 

So far,

1. I like the flow of all, maybe less that of Dark Matter. 
2. (update to the update) In terms of feathering, on Rhodia 80g all perform well-enough for my project; on Leuchtturm 1917 140gsm all do ok but Take-Sumi and Doyou could be crisper; on Moleskine all feather badly.
3. In terms of waterproofing, I find Platinum Carbon Ink > Rohrer and Klingner Lotte >> Sailor Doyou >> Noodler's Dark Matter > Pilot Take-Sumi, where x > y indicates x is more waterproof than y, and >> stands for much more. 

Now, if I only I could understand better how well and how easily I can clean the Platinum Carbon Ink and Rohrer and Klingner Lotte inks, and with what cleaning fluid. I may need to move to proper demonstrators. 

 

An alternative: move to Rhodia 80g as the paper for this project. 

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

You could try R&K Documentus/ DeA document black. I would also suggest Herbin Perle Noire for an easily-cleaned, well behaved, yet decently water resistant ink.

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

  On 7/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, OldTravelingShoe said:

e.g., the Rohrer and Klingner Reiniger?

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While I haven't used Reiniger myself, I've pretty much only heard good things about it.

[OldTravelingShoe]

Thank you for the ideas and comments, @IlikeInksandIcannotlie.

 

J. Herbin's Perle Noire is a very nice suggestion. I'm already feeling quite positively about Poussiére de la Lune, Lie de The, and a couple of others in this series, so if Perle Noire is similarly well-behaved (or better) it would be an alternative. 

 

De Atramentis Document Inks are in my toolbox as sketching ink, just not the black because there I already use Platinum Carbon Ink... But in a much more disposable pen, Lamy Joy. Also the Document Inks are typically in my Sailor Fude DE Mannen pens, all cheap plastic pens with steel nibs so relatively disposable. I will think about taking the step for the big pen. 

[OldTravelingShoe]

Update about my ink search: After all the tests and discussion, I'm leaning toward either:

 

1/ Platinum Carbon Ink. @A Smug Dill here on FPN and Tina Koyama of among others the Well Appointed Desk have both used it in (very expensive) modern pens without issue. Tina even re-wetted the feed with a wet napkin after a longevity test where the ink dried up [1]. (Sailor Kawa-Guro also works, but many mention smearing after use, even duplicating writing on the opposite page. I also saw mentions that some color is being released upon contact with water, so watercolor around gets tainted, although this is not my primary use-case in this project.) 

 

2/ Pilot Iroshizuku Take-Sumi. Easy to use and clean, just don't combine with other inks (write over) or water (brush over). Works well with EF and F nibs, should not be bad with Japanese M nibs. (Sailor Doyou could also work as a substitute.)

 

I could start with 1, or start with 2 and move to 1 as I gain confidence. In any case, I will backup everything digitally - taking photo-scans after every session. 

 

[1] Tina's explanations: http://tina-koyama.blogspot.com/2015/09/product-review-sailor-nano-kiwa-guro-ink.html?m=1

[recluse]

I wrote a book, which, in the process, required a few hundred of pages written by fountain pens (mostly calculations). I use fountain pens to relieve myself of constraints: creating a content is hard enough without the necessity to overcome some additional external challenges. In all honesty, if I absolutely needed to have waterproof uniform fine-line writing on sub-par paper and whatnot, I'd just go and buy a couple of Pilot Precise V5 with the extra-fine tip or something to that effect and be done with it because the book comes first. For instance, Kiwa-Guro could fit the bill but it has this graphite-like sheen, which may be off-putting or disrupting, and so on.

 

Of course, we all have different circumstances and working conditions but I would advice to stick to the ink that you like now. There's really nothing wrong with any ink mentioned here and I could do a long-term project with any of them (except, maybe, Platinum Carbon Black: I didn't like how it behaved on regular paper, plus people advice to clean the pen every other week, so I didn't go beyond a sample) but what if you simply don't like it for one reason or another. You like Take-sumi, so take it with you as your partner in your work. Yes, it's possible to spill some coffee and ruin a few lines or maybe a few pages. That'll just set you back a few hours. But what if you spill coffee on your laptop and fry it before you had chances to save your work or upload it to a cloud and so forth? We take precautions but we don't let them to consume us because there's stuff that needs to be done.

[OldTravelingShoe]

Many thanks @recluse, this is great advice. Slowly but steadily, I am converging towards inks I like and feel I can (easily) manage.

 

A bit more on the timeline: I have a clear timeline for the decision - today I'm making it (and my main choices), tomorrow I'm taking it. But I want to get in as many views and options that have a plausible likelihood of being part of the final decision. 

[dipper]

Crosshatching....?

 

Most FPen inks, when crosshatched, make a darker tone where the lines cross over each other.

That varied tone effect can be made fully black in all areas by processing any photos or scans of hand written documents. Not ideal during the actual drawing work though.

 

There is only one FPen ink I know of that lays down a uniform tone line, regardless of crosshatching etc, and that is Sailor Kiwaguro.

Its black tone is not the blackest, having some slight graphite-pencil-like sheen. The "near black" that it makes, when laid down as one line, remains exactly the same when overlaid by another line.

 

Also, Kiwaguro works well on almost any paper type, without any bleed through or feathering.

 

Is all that important to you?

 

I guess that after much work on your manuscript you will retain the original and be photographing or scanning the pages and sending to the publisher as image files or as a pdf? Note the mention of processing of images above.

And you may have a stock of good quality FPen friendly paper for this work?

 

A more important factor may be to choose a free flowing dye-based ink so you can just write and write and draw and crosshatch for hours every day without any flow or pen cleaning issues.

Then make the photos or page scans fully black by image processing?

 

For example, recently I was doodling using Quink Blue-Black whilst enjoying watching Garry Oldman as Winston Churchill in the film "Finest Hour". My messy blue doodle was er.. messy! But photographed, and tweaked in the Snapseed app on my phone it turned into this:

[amberleadavis]

  On 7/10/2022 at 1:50 AM, dipper said:

Crosshatching....?

 

Most FPen inks, when crosshatched, make a darker tone where the lines cross over each other.

That varied tone effect can be made fully black in all areas by processing any photos or scans of hand written documents. Not ideal during the actual drawing work though.

 

There is only one FPen ink I know of that lays down a uniform tone line, regardless of crosshatching etc, and that is Sailor Kiwaguro.

Its black tone is not the blackest, having some slight graphite-pencil-like sheen. The "near black" that it makes, when laid down as one line, remains exactly the same when overlaid by another line.

 

Also, Kiwaguro works well on almost any paper type, without any bleed through or feathering.

 

Is all that important to you?

 

I guess that after much work on your manuscript you will retain the original and be photographing or scanning the pages and sending to the publisher as image files or as a pdf? Note the mention of processing of images above.

And you may have a stock of good quality FPen friendly paper for this work?

 

A more important factor may be to choose a free flowing dye-based ink so you can just write and write and draw and crosshatch for hours every day without any flow or pen cleaning issues.

Then make the photos or page scans fully black by image processing?

 

For example, recently I was doodling using Quink Blue-Black whilst enjoying watching Garry Oldman as Winston Churchill in the film "Finest Hour". My messy blue doodle was er.. messy! But photographed, and tweaked in the Snapseed app on my phone it turned into this:

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Wow, your doodles are actually art.

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

  On 7/9/2022 at 5:42 PM, OldTravelingShoe said:

Thank you for the ideas and comments, @IlikeInksandIcannotlie.

 

J. Herbin's Perle Noire is a very nice suggestion. I'm already feeling quite positively about Poussiére de la Lune, Lie de The, and a couple of others in this series, so if Perle Noire is similarly well-behaved (or better) it would be an alternative. 

 

De Atramentis Document Inks are in my toolbox as sketching ink, just not the black because there I already use Platinum Carbon Ink... But in a much more disposable pen, Lamy Joy. Also the Document Inks are typically in my Sailor Fude DE Mannen pens, all cheap plastic pens with steel nibs so relatively disposable. I will think about taking the step for the big pen. 

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Perle Noire does have that superb behaviour. 

Also the R&K Dokumentus line might not be pigment based, considering the precautionary measures to be taken on the bottle:

Do make sure to replace the cap on your fountain pen after use to prevent blockages in the nib. Beyond this no special care is needed!

[OldTravelingShoe]

  On 7/10/2022 at 1:50 AM, dipper said:

enjoying watching Garry Oldman as Winston Churchill in the film "Finest Hour". My messy blue doodle was er.. messy! But photographed, and tweaked in the Snapseed app on my phone it turned into this

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Hehe, excellent context! 

 

Over and over again, I notice how much the artist matters, so much more than the instrument. This line art would be for me on-par with what I've seen comics and sequential art done in pen and ink - wonderful! 😄

[OldTravelingShoe]

  On 7/10/2022 at 1:50 AM, dipper said:

There is only one FPen ink I know of that lays down a uniform tone line, regardless of crosshatching etc, and that is Sailor Kiwaguro.

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I'm getting mixed inputs here: some say Platinum Carbon Ink is the only one with these properties, followed by Sailor Kiwa-Guro as _counter-example_. Now I need to buy the latter, of course, only so I can compare 😃

[OldTravelingShoe]

  On 7/10/2022 at 1:50 AM, dipper said:

Crosshatching....?

 

Most FPen inks, when crosshatched, make a darker tone where the lines cross over each other.

That varied tone effect can be made fully black in all areas by processing any photos or scans of hand written documents

Expand  

Very useful advice, noted and thank you, @dipper!

[OldTravelingShoe]

Many thanks for the extensive advice, @dipper, so many important points to think about and learn!

 

About my process:

1. The book itself is typeset and delivered as a PDF accompanied by digital sources that the editors and reviewers can access and work on online. Specifically, we will use LaTeX and related to typeset the document, digital vectorial and occasionally raster imagine, Overleaf as the collaborative editing service, Google Drive to exchange notes, etc. 
2. I will write and draw as much as possible in fountain pen and ink. We have much of the core material, about 200 pages of the target 250, so the design and in general intellectual part of the process should focus on how to present the information, rather than which information to present. This makes the pen and paper process more important than it usually is for this kind of technical book. 
3. Consequence of points 1 and 2, everything will be done or re-done digitally. We seem to have enough time, budget, and personnel in the team to do this. 
4. I plan to share the pen and ink manuscript as scans, taken after each major session or at the end of each week, so it is indeed relevant that the material can be scanned easily and accurately. This also reduces the dependency on waterproof inks. 
5. As paper, I was planning to use Moleskine, as a continuation of how the project started, but it's becoming increasingly clear it will become a hindrance so I'm already considering switching to Rhodia 80g, which I tried extensively and trust. 
6. I plan to keep the manuscript for myself, and for me this is an important, personal part of the whole project. I'd like it to be artsy.

Thanks, everyone, this discussion is also helping me clarify my process! 

 

Enjoy the weekend. 

 

[arcfide]

I'd point out that inks like Platinum dyestuff Black and Perle Noire are all not quite as intensely black as Take-sumi or Platinum Carbon Black, but they have above average water resistance and are low maintenance inks that are easy to use. I'd probably also put Sailor Black and Lamy Black into that mix as well, though they haven't shown the same level of water resistance. If you quite like working with more porous paper, some of these inks can be quite black on such paper while also giving good water resistance. 

 

I think the choice really depends most on how much water resistance you demand and how well each ink works on your preferred paper. With water-based, non-pigmented, dye inks, the paper that you use can have a big effect on just how water resistance an ink is. On more absorbent paper, some inks are much more water resistance than their behavior on more ink resistant papers would suggest.