MB 149P's body guard

[newtimer]

15 hours ago, Ted A said:

 

 

Is there a way to distinguish the 3.4, 2.6 from each other and from the European/US “standard” converters? Other than trying to jam them in and see if they crack the collar.

 

I find a need to move converters around for various reasons and am never quite sure what will work

It looks like the X159 uses the 2.6 converter.  I compared it to the converter on the regular 159.  The 159 converter has a larger opening and does not fit the X159.

[A Smug Dill]

23 hours ago, newtimer said:

It looks like the X159 uses the 2.6 converter.

 

That corroborates what Jinhao stated in its marketing collateral for the pen model.

[sansenri]

On 8/20/2022 at 3:10 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

That is also how Jinhao designates the nib on the X159, in the official marketing collateral for the product.

 

(click to enlarge)

Source: Official Jinhao store on Taobao

 

No Chinese manufacturer of note and/or scale (as opposed to individual sellers on AliExpress, Etsy, etc. who may be trying to target prospective customers in the secondary market overseas for their main commercial push) actually designates the nibs factory-fitted on its pens as no.5, no.6, no.8, etc., when that framework of nib size designation is mainly a JoWo thing, barely extensible to Bock and its marketing, and certainly no “international standard” about which major players such as Sailor, Pilot, Lamy, Pelikan, Aurora, etc. that makes their own nibs in-house give any express recognition.

 

Interchangeability and/or compatibility with ‘Western’ pens and feeds is not of what Chinese manufacturers make a selling point for the nibs they produce for Chinese-branded pens; and the only Chinese pens that are marketed on being compatible with, say, Bock nibs will already have Bock nibs fitted on them (e.g. on one branch of the Moonman 800 model).

 

Conversely, a Chinese no.35 (i.e. 35mm total length) nib that is Moonman branded will likely fit, say, a Jinhao X750 or a Kaigelu 356, both of which come factory-fitted with respectively branded no.35 nibs, never mind the feed diameter. Whereas a HongDian-branded no.32 nib will not be compatible, in spite of being nominally a “no.6” in your preferred terminology and has a curvature that fits around a 6mm-diameter feed. Likewise, the nib on a Wing Sung 699 is a no.32 (and interchangeable with a HongDian nib of the same size); what good is saying or knowing that it’s a “no.6”?

 

 

I don't expect any manufacturer to adopt the "size" wording that many of us use, as a standard.

Then again, I have not invented the size 5, size 6, size 8 commonly used definitions, but I am aware they are widely used.

In the western world it is however also very widely adhered to, and it's not just a Jowo thing.

Companies call their nibs with their own codes and definitions, but it's understandable, the "size 5, size 6, size 8" wording is only sufficient to define the diameter expressed in millimeters in which the nib fits in (diameter of the curvature), so two size 6 nibs could be different, for example if they are different length, which does happen.

I find the "size" (diameter) definition a more useful description than the nib length, because if there is an interest to find a nib replacement it's best to start from the diameter, then also check the length.

I am also aware that outside the western world other measures of diameter are common, and often they are incompatible with western pens.

In any case you misunderstand me, I don't expect any company to openly tell me how to replace their nib except with their own...

still it's a piece of info I always look for, as I like to play the nib swapping game...

So my interest was just specific to this nib, you are probably right, it's just some sellers that are declaring it's a size 8...

I'll just need to be patient and see what I get when it arrives.

 

[A Smug Dill]

6 hours ago, sansenri said:

Then again, I have not invented the size 5, size 6, size 8 commonly used definitions, but I am aware they are widely used.

 

Not in the Chinese fountain pen industry/market, and not among the masses of fountain pen users in China. Not in Japan, either; Pilot's nib sizes 5, 10, 15, etc. for its Custom line do not correspond to the “definition” to which you refer.

 

6 hours ago, sansenri said:

In the western world it is however also very widely adhered to, and it's not just a Jowo thing.

 

Not by major Western fountain pen brands that make their nibs in-house, such as Aurora and Pelikan, never mind Lamy whose open nibs are of an entirely different design. Now that Visconti is making some of its gold nibs in-house, does it ever state in its product specifications or marketing collateral that this pen model or that one has a “size 6” nib that adopts or refers to your definition? I don't think Diplomat and (Graf von) Faber-Castell, which use nibs made by JoWo and Bock in their pens, ever makes reference to “size 5”, “size 6”, etc.

 

So just how widely used are the terms, either in the industry globally, or among fountain pen users globally, of which “the western world” is a significant part but not the centre around which everything is built?

 

6 hours ago, sansenri said:

still it's a piece of info I always look for, as I like to play the nib swapping game...

 

I'm not implying you should stop. I don't have a problem with the practice.

 

On 8/20/2022 at 12:53 AM, sansenri said:

Indian companies tend to consider 40mm length as a useful definition of nib size, unfortunately it is not,

 

Just putting things into perspective that is not centred on one's personal requirements. My issue is simply that when Chinese and Indian pen/nib manufacturers specify their products in particular ways in their marketing collateral, it is obviously what they think is useful in selling to their target market; and you seemed to imply what they chose is not useful either for their intended purpose or for prospective buyers' areas of interest, of which neither you nor I are representative; what you're interested in does not dictate what makes for “definition”.

[Mech-for-i]

Sort of like US market still using the old imperial measurement when most of the world use the metric standard ... 

 

There is no single standard , not in fountain pen sector , call the so call standard its only at best defacto , and very loosely so , even the so call int'l standard C/C or the mentioned no.5/6 nib size there were and there are many samples of incompatibility even among themselves - I've had Bock nibs that just would not fit well in Bock feeds despite both being , what , no.6 and similar for many others

[sansenri]

20 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Not in the Chinese fountain pen industry/market, and not among the masses of fountain pen users in China. Not in Japan, either; Pilot's nib sizes 5, 10, 15, etc. for its Custom line do not correspond to the “definition” to which you refer.

 

 

Not by major Western fountain pen brands that make their nibs in-house, such as Aurora and Pelikan, never mind Lamy whose open nibs are of an entirely different design. Now that Visconti is making some of its gold nibs in-house, does it ever state in its product specifications or marketing collateral that this pen model or that one has a “size 6” nib that adopts or refers to your definition? I don't think Diplomat and (Graf von) Faber-Castell, which use nibs made by JoWo and Bock in their pens, ever makes reference to “size 5”, “size 6”, etc.

 

So just how widely used are the terms, either in the industry globally, or among fountain pen users globally, of which “the western world” is a significant part but not the centre around which everything is built?

 

 

I'm not implying you should stop. I don't have a problem with the practice.

 

 

Just putting things into perspective that is not centred on one's personal requirements. My issue is simply that when Chinese and Indian pen/nib manufacturers specify their products in particular ways in their marketing collateral, it is obviously what they think is useful in selling to their target market; and you seemed to imply what they chose is not useful either for their intended purpose or for prospective buyers' areas of interest, of which neither you nor I are representative; what you're interested in does not dictate what makes for “definition”.

 

I've said that I am aware non-western countries do not tend to follow the metric standard.

 

You would however be surprised how many western companies follow the diameter standard.

It's not a matter of "calling" the size of the nib 5, 6 or 8, but actually making nibs to that size diameter.

Leave aside vintage pens, as they often used smaller nibs, but on modern pens in the western world the 5, 6, 8 mm diameter is very widespread.

 

In the following when is say size 5, size 6, size 8 consider that I mean diameter of the nib curvature 5 mm, 6mm, 8mm.

I'm not dictating anything, just acknowledging some facts (which can be checked, just pull nib and feed out, and check the diameter of the hole)

 

Pelikan: M200/400/600 are size 5 as the nib itself fits a 5mm diameter hole.

M800 is size 6 as the nib fits a 6mm diameter hole.

M1000 is size 8 as the nib fits a 8mm diameter hole.

 

Montblanc: 146 is size 6 (the nib fits a 6 mm hole), 149 is size 8. Most modern models, also LEs that have a round curvature nib follow those measures, either using size 6 or 8 (the 139 also used a size 8).

 

Aurora: Y is size 5 as the nib itself fits a 5mm diameter hole. 88 big, Talentum and Optima (use the same nibs) are size 6, the nib fits a 6 mm hole, give it a go if you wish, you have Auroras, pull the nib and feed out of the housing and measure...

 

Visconti: has always used size 5 and size 6  nibs, the bare nibs fit 5mm and 6 mm holes.

 

 

Both Jowo and Bock make size 5, 6 and 8 nibs (diameter in mm). All companies that use their nibs follow the same standard in terms of diameter of the nibs, obviously. Jowo and Bock make steel nibs in size 5 and 6, but so far not in size 8. (this is one of the reasons why the X159 is interesting for a number of people, if the nib really is a size 8 (8mm curvature diameter) and not an intermediate size).  Both companies make size 8 gold nibs. These size 8 nibs have often been swapped in the Conid bulk filler, the king size version, so have some MB size 8 nibs.

 

The number of western companies using either Bock or Jowo is really wide. Some of them have the nibs made to specifications, but if you check the diameter it is still always 5, 6, or 8mm. Leonardo uses such nibs, Edison, FC and a plethora of custom pen makers.

 

Bexley has used both Bock nibs (gold) and later Jowo (steel). All either size 5 , 6 and 8.

 

Conklin used size 5 and 6, I believe they are Jowo made currently after switching from another source (not Bock) that caused a lot of complaints.

 

The modern Conway Stewart uses size 6 nibs. These are probably still made by Bock or Jowo.

 

Faber Castell and GvFC use size 5 and 6 nibs.

 

All Delta pens used either size 5 or size 6 nibs.

 

Kaweco uses size 5 or 6 nibs, made by Bock.

 

Marlen uses size 5 or 6 nibs.

 

Montegrappa uses size 5, 6 and 8 nibs.

 

Maiora uses size 6 and 8 nibs.

 

Nettuno uses size 6 nibs.

 

Newton pens uses mostly size 6 nibs, mostly Jowo.

 

Omas used size 5 and 6 nibs, they also used smaller nibs in their vintage pens, 3.5 mm and sometimes smaller.

While most modern size 6 nibs are 35mm long, Omas mostly used 32mm long nibs, when adopting the size 6 diameter.

 

Parker has made a very wide number of pens, but among the modern pens for example, the Duofold Centennial nib is size 6 and the International nib is size 5.

 

Scribo make their own nibs and they are size 6.

 

Stipula uses size 5 and 6 nibs, they used to take nibs from Bock, I think they may still do so for the steel nibs, the gold nibs are made in house now, and they are size 6.

 

Pineider either uses size 5 or size 6 nibs.

 

Santini uses size 6, they may also offer size 8 (but I would need to check, I don't remember by heart)

 

Tibaldi currently uses size 6.

 

Waterman, like Parker may have used other size nibs, but on modern pens they are either size 5 or 6.

 

These are just a few that come to my mind at the moment, there may be others (obviously I'm more accustomed with well know brands or Italian makers, but I'm rather certain others would use same size nibs in EU and US) .

 

Viceversa, if I have to think of any western pen maker that does not use these sizes, with exception as you noted with companies like Lamy that use different geometry, although there may be, I have a very very hard time thinking of one...

 

 

I think you may understand that I am not putting my requirements in the center of the world...

Just saying it is a rather widespread "non-standard".

 

All I'm saying really is that if the X159 does take a diameter 8 nib, besides this being (hopefully, still to be tested in my case) a nicely working pen, it could just be additionally interesting, for those here in EU (or US) who enjoy swapping nibs, that's all.

If not, nevermind, as I said I'll move on to something else.

 

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, sansenri said:

I think you may understand that I am not putting my requirements in the center of the world...

Just saying it is a rather widespread "non-standard".

 

All I'm saying really is that if the X159 does take a diameter 8 nib,

 

Again, the issue I have with your statement below is:

 

On 8/20/2022 at 12:53 AM, sansenri said:

Yes, the nib is a size 8, which should mean it fits an 8mm diameter bore/hole (Indian companies tend to consider 40mm length as a useful definition of nib size, unfortunately it is not, as for example the Ambitious 40 nib is 40mm in length but fits a 6 mm bore/hole - so if the definition of nib size is given essentially by diameter -and that is my understanding - the Ambitious 40 is a size 6 nib...)  .

 

it's only your requirement to know the diameter of the feed in the pen on which the nib is fitted. Indian and Chinese companies quite legitimately consider it sufficiently useful to ‘define’ their nibs by the total length, because for their primary target markets the customer requirement for compatibility with (feeds in) Western pens is uncommon, and a minority concern; and addressing minority concerns in the brands' marketing collateral is not particularly useful, especially when ‘defining’ a nib as size 6 instead of calling out the total length does not guarantee compatibility with pens of their own brands, or with other Chinese-branded pens.

 

That's why I'm saying you're putting your requirements at the centre of the world, because you seem to fail to acknowledge that apparently most Indian and Chinese fountain pen buyers/users don't require that feed diameter information you seek, and globally (i.e. in the world) I think they outnumber the small proportion among ‘Western’ hobbyists that you may consider like-minded in wanting to play with nib-swapping across brands, and not being satisfied with only nib-swapping between ‘Western’ brands. The Chinese may sell cheaper nibs, and those nibs may be good enough (or even very good for what they are), but if interchangeability with JoWo and/or Bock nibs on ‘Western’ pens is not what the companies consider to be a key selling point, then there is no call to make that information prominently available.

 

The Jinhao X159 uses a 40mm nib, which is a longer and visually more prominent nib than that on, say, the Jinhao X450. That is a key selling point Jinhao is calling out in its marketing collateral (which I've shown you earlier) for the pen model, while having a wider feed than on other Jinhao pen models or not is apparently not what the company thinks would make the X159 attractive to prospective buyers and users. Whose information requirements should Jinhao prioritise or even really care about?

 

[Karmachanic]

3 hours ago, sansenri said:

Montblanc: 146 is size 6 (the nib fits a 6 mm hole),

 

Bit off-topic, but being as you mentioned it.  I have a 50s 146 OM nib in a Bock 250 housing/feed on a matte black ASA Maya - no rings.  I purchased the nib for another purpose, which did not work out.  Anyway, speaks to standard sizing.

 

 

[sansenri]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Bit off-topic, but being as you mentioned it.  I have a 50s 146 OM nib in a Bock 250 housing/feed on a matte black ASA Maya - no rings.  I purchased the nib for another purpose, which did not work out.  Anyway, speaks to standard sizing.

 

 

Thanks K, in any case it is in all cases easily verified, one just needs to pull the nib and feed out of the housing (or the section in case of pens that do not use screw in housing) and check the diameter of the remaining hole.

 

As we have often discussed same size diameter is by no means a certainty that another nib with same diameter will fit.

The reason is that other factors play in, the feed (that even when same diameter does not always guarantee a perfect matching with the nib), the shape of the nib, sometimes wide shoulders do not allow the nib to fit properly in, even the thickness of the nib can cause the nib to fit too tight or too loose with the feed.

 

But still, if you wish to fit a different nib in, you need at least to start with same diameter!

 

[sansenri]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Again, the issue I have with your statement below is:

 

 

it's only your requirement to know the diameter of the feed in the pen on which the nib is fitted. Indian and Chinese companies quite legitimately consider it sufficiently useful to ‘define’ their nibs by the total length, because for their primary target markets the customer requirement for compatibility with (feeds in) Western pens is uncommon, and a minority concern; and addressing minority concerns in the brands' marketing collateral is not particularly useful, especially when ‘defining’ a nib as size 6 instead of calling out the total length does not guarantee compatibility with pens of their own brands, or with other Chinese-branded pens.

 

That's why I'm saying you're putting your requirements at the centre of the world, because you seem to fail to acknowledge that apparently most Indian and Chinese fountain pen buyers/users don't require that feed diameter information you seek, and globally (i.e. in the world) I think they outnumber the small proportion among ‘Western’ hobbyists that you may consider like-minded in wanting to play with nib-swapping across brands, and not being satisfied with only nib-swapping between ‘Western’ brands. The Chinese may sell cheaper nibs, and those nibs may be good enough (or even very good for what they are), but if interchangeability with JoWo and/or Bock nibs on ‘Western’ pens is not what the companies consider to be a key selling point, then there is no call to make that information prominently available.

 

The Jinhao X159 uses a 40mm nib, which is a longer and visually more prominent nib than that on, say, the Jinhao X450. That is a key selling point Jinhao is calling out in its marketing collateral (which I've shown you earlier) for the pen model, while having a wider feed than on other Jinhao pen models or not is apparently not what the company thinks would make the X159 attractive to prospective buyers and users. Whose information requirements should Jinhao prioritise or even really care about?

 

 

I think I've explained my point, now I'm slightly tired of the discussion, so if it makes you happy, yes it's just my requirement to know the diameter of the nib. When I find out I will tell by pm just those few who care to ask. That if ok with you.

 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:41 AM, sansenri said:

So my interest was just specific to this nib, you are probably right, it's just some sellers that are declaring it's a size 8...

 

… and you should ignore them, if the manufacturer has chosen not to use that terminology, or otherwise offer information on the feed diameter. The claim that a seller is “declaring it's a size 8” probably won't stand as sufficient cause for AliExpress, eBay and/or PayPal to resolve a dispute in your favour, should you pursue a complaint that what you received was “not as described”.

 

15 hours ago, sansenri said:

if it makes you happy, yes it's just my requirement to know the diameter of the nib.

 

Thank you.

 

15 hours ago, sansenri said:

When I find out I will tell by pm just those few who care to ask. That if ok with you.

 

Sure.

 

To me, the diameter of the hole, the diameter of the feed, and geometry (curvature, thickness, etc.) of the nib are all different items of information, all of which are relevant to nib-swapping across pen models and brands — which is something I personally do as well, but that is a practice of minority interest that one has no reason to expect manufacturers to actively support, either by making designs more modular such that nib swapping is easier and less error-prone in execution, or by offering the few interested consumers ample information in aid of that objective.

 

When you're off in the margins outside the mainstream, it's easier to get your peers — irrespective of whether they're like-minded, identify with the same group(s) on the margins as you do, or just apt to sympathise with outliers — to help you out with information, in an unofficial capacity and non-authoritative manner.

 

Whereas if you try to push your ideals and causes into more widespread adoption, especially by major groups in the industry globally, then I think you ought to expect disagreement and pushback in a community forum, because it becomes philosophical argument and not just a practical concern for an individual hobbyist.

 

 

Here's some objective information about the feed. It may not be the most precise or accurate, but I don't feel there's a need to pull the feed out and take measurement of its diameter (or length), just to establish whether “sellers … declaring it's a size 8” is outright wrong and meaningless for prospective buyers of the pen, never mind whether using that terminology makes it sound or feel more friendly towards the minority of “Western world” nib-swapping enthusiasts. I went to find, and now give, this information freely for their benefit, because I don't like to see my fellows in the hobbyist community being deceived or misled, irrespective of whether I share their preferences and concerns. There's a difference between their having to feel their own way around in the dark to get to their desired destination, and their being given a bum steer or led up the garden path, so to speak.

 

The fact that some people in the forum have been stating^† (or just parroting) that the nib on the Jinhao X159 is a “size 8” or “#8” does not help anyone, other than perhaps certain sellers on AliExpress and eBay who couldn't care less as long as they're making sales.

 

 

^† I saw another instance of it just hours ago and, just to be clear, it was not @sansenri's doing.

 

[hari317]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:32 PM, Karmachanic said:

my MB 149P

what's 149P?

[Karmachanic]

@hari317  P = Platinum

[hari317]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

@hari317  P = Platinum

👍 the P suffix was used by Montblanc to indicate P=Patronen or Cartridge filling version eg 220 and 220P etc. 

[hari317]

21 hours ago, sansenri said:

Pelikan: M200/400/600 are size 5 as the nib itself fits a 5mm diameter hole.

M800 is size 6 as the nib fits a 6mm diameter hole.

M1000 is size 8 as the nib fits a 8mm diameter hole.

Pelikan feed diameters are as follows: 

m200/400: 5.5mm. This won’t enter a 5 mm hole. 
M800: 6.5mm. This won’t enter a 6mm hole. 
m1000: 7.5mm. This will simply fall through an 8mm hole. 
 

[J120]

Blue,Red,BlacknGold Clips

$7.48

[hari317]

29 minutes ago, J120 said:

Blue,Red,BlacknGold Clips

$7.48

The two tone nib looks sharp!

[J120]

1 hour ago, hari317 said:

The two tone nib looks sharp!

I prefer the silver but happy for more colors to match the inks to the pen. 

[Karmachanic]

I too prefer the silver trim. but would not be opposed to a two tone nib à la MB 149 Platinum, where the gold and siver areas in the above nibs would be exchanged, on a silver trim model

[socialmoth]

14 hours ago, J120 said:

Blue,Red,BlacknGold Clips

$7.48

 

I know it's off Montblanc, but the burgundy/gold colorway's just convinced me to buy another one.

A part of me hopes they'd have reduced the cap twists by the new release, but there really isn't much to complain about.