Spencerian, Palmer, Copperplate, Italics.. what?

[steerpike]

 

I didn't even know Seyes ruled was a thing until this forum. Today, a few small notebooks arrived and I started messing around with them. Ultimately, my goal is to have consistent handwriting. I've plenty of work ahead of me. As my rambling above mentions, I stumbled upon various scripts both on here and on reddit. For example:

 

 

Now, I think that's gorgeous. I wouldn't care if a journal entry took two hours, so long as it looked like that.

 

So my questions for you knowledgeable stylophiles are four:

 

1. Is the above considered Italic, or a specific named script?

2. Does anyone know of a brief overview / set of examples for the major styles practiced today?

3. Is this where an italic nib comes into play?

4. Any good pen recommendations specific to learning / practicing this stuff, or is it just a matter of the proper nib on any FP?

 

Also, I saw this book recommended... any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond (Lettering, Calligraphy, Typography) Paperback – Illustrated, 27 May 2011
by Eleanor Winters

 

Cheers!

Edited June 27, 2022 by steerpike

[A Smug Dill]

15 minutes ago, steerpike said:

Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond

 

That is an excellent book which I’ve recommended to others on here previously.

 

17 minutes ago, steerpike said:

Does anyone know of a brief overview / set of examples for the major styles practiced today?

 

The Calligrapher's Bible: 100 Complete Alphabets and How to Draw Them by David Harris

[steerpike]

5 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

That is an excellent book which I’ve recommended to others on here previously.

 

 

Thanks! Amazon's "Buy Now" button is a dangerous thing. It'll be here tomorrow.

[Paul_LZ]

20 hours ago, steerpike said:

Also, I saw this book recommended... any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond (Lettering, Calligraphy, Typography) Paperback – Illustrated, 27 May 2011
by Eleanor Winters

I can’t answer your questions with enough and sound knowledge, but this book is apparently the “bible of Calligraphy”. 
 

let us know what you think of it if you take the plunge, 👍

[txomsy]

21 hours ago, steerpike said:

1. Is the above considered Italic, or a specific named script?

Yes, the one in the second picture is an italic script.

 

Please, note that, as with copperplate-derived scripts there are many variants with slight differences, it doesn't matter much which one you pick, as long as you practice to get consistency.

 

21 hours ago, steerpike said:

2. Does anyone know of a brief overview / set of examples for the major styles practiced today?

Eleanor Winters' is highly recommendable, but not the "bible". Her book on Copperplate Calligraphy was considered the reference masterwork by many for Copperplate, which is just but one style in the family.

 

This one on Italic and Copperplate has many good points, the main one IMHO is that it describes the two main base scripts of most major scripts practiced today, but only those (Italic and Copperplate). A second bonus, again IMHO, is that here instead of promoting the-one-and-true-style, she encourages readers to try variations that may better fit their taste. Other commonly used scripts are Spencerian, Palmer, and many more.

 

The book "100 alphabets" may give you a broader idea, but there are many more. If you do not want to break the bank, you can get links to many, many copybooks at "www.pennavolans.com" and at the IAMPETH site.

 

21 hours ago, steerpike said:

3. Is this where an italic nib comes into play?

Sort of. Yes.

 

The main difference between both, italic-derived and copperplate-derived scripts is the nib used.

 

For italic-derived (and most ancient) scripts, one is supposed to use an italic nib with its tip truncated, which gives line variation simply by the orientation of the nib with respect to the line being written. The problem with italic nibs is that to get the most variation they need to be razor sharp and have clear-cut corner edges, which makes using them difficult unless one is used to them. For this reason, most people use 'stub' nibs that have rounded corners and a softer edge, so they are very easy to use as they do not cut into the paper. The problem with them is that, then, you get less line variation.

 

For copperplate-derived, one is supposed to use a flexible nib with a very thin point: without pressure the needle-point nib creates a very thin hair line, but with some pressure, it will open the tines (the split sides of the nib) and lay out a thicker line, leading to line width variation. The problem is that the needle-point is difficult to master too (requires a very light touch or will catch into the paper --like razor-sharp italic nibs), and mastering line variation depends on mastering the interplay of pressures and movement. The second problem is that such nibs would deform is used like a BIC -which is what most people nowadays is used to-, so they are no longer made for fountain pens (with a few exceptions and when so, with less flexibility than required by these scripts in full bloom). Getting the required line variation out of an FP nib is the Holy Grail of many users now and usually entails blindly chasing vintage (as in "very old", not 10 years old) pens until you find one that is flexible enough or ordering a customized nib from a nibmeister, and then mastering it.  The alternative is to use dip-pens, which is what most lovers of these styles will advice.

 

For line variation, undoubtedly, the italic/stub nibs are the easiest way to go. Plus, copperplate itself derives from italic, so mastering italic first will not do any damage.

 

And anyway, nice writing needs not line variation, just consistency and that comes with practice.

 

21 hours ago, steerpike said:

Any good pen recommendations specific to learning / practicing this stuff, or is it just a matter of the proper nib on any FP?

 

As usual, depends on budget.

 

If you want to start with italic, then the traditional advice is to start "big" so you can see better your writing issues. A 1.5mm stub nib will give you appropriate size to spot defects and a very satisfying line variation. Then you can move to 1.1mm or even to an italic. Which pen? There are many, the "Manuscript" brand makes nice affordable sets. For a more permanent approach, I'd advice the Lamy Joy or the Kaweco Sport: both are easy to swap nibs, and both have nibs that are stubby leaning to the italic side (nice line variation and soft writing), but there are many italic calligraphy pen sets to choose from.

 

If you want to start with Copperplate... I'd go for a FPR (Fountain Pen Revolution USA) pen with an UltraFlex nib. It is not totally flex, but rather semi-flex, will require some force to get the line variation, which may be somewhat tiring, but will be cheap until you learn. Then, I'd move on to a dip-pen with Zebra-G or Nikko-G nibs to lighten your hand and see how satisfying real flex can be. And then, depending on budget, I would either go "cheap" for a pen with a nib tuned for flex by a nibmeister, or go "luxury" for a MB 149 or 146 Calligraphy with the bespoke flex nib (if you can get one), which every one that owns one swears by, but which is expensive.

 

For Copperplate-derived, you can try to chase after vintage flex, but my experience after years is that if one is interested in just writing, it is better to just go safe and aim for "the thing": an FPR pen with UltraFlex nib, or a more expensive Pilot pen with Falcon flex nib to start with, and once you are sure you want it, a pen with a nibmeister tuned nib or an MB Calligraphy pen.

 

To start, right now, my advice (which is, obviously, most arguable) would be to get a pen with a 1.5mm stub and an FPR with UltraFlex, since you already ordered Eleanor Winters' Italic and Copperplate, and try both styles to see which one suits you best. That may turn out to be all you need.

[steerpike]

@txomsy Thank you for taking the time to write that. Seems like great advice. I'm looking forward to getting started.

[Paul_LZ]

Great advice, will keep it as a reference. Thank you @txomsy