Are there multiple cartages marketed as Standard International or am I just incredibly dim?

[Zegurk]

I own both a Diplomat Magnum (bought from Goulet) and a Loushi Labyrinth (bought from Truphae), which I believed to be both standard international pens. I also bought some extra cartages and converters* from Jinhao on AliExpress and figured those would be standard international as everywhere says that Jinhao only makes standard international pens, but as it seems, the Diplomat is only compatible with the converter I got with it from Goulet and the Loushi seems to only work with the Jinhaos. What am I missing?

 

Thanks!

 

*I chose the 4mm version as it seemed to match the cartage I got from Goulet

[inkstainedruth]

It's not just you.  

In my (admittedly limited) experience "International standard" isn't as "international" OR "standard" as it's made out to be.  I ran into that a couple of years ago with a pen I found in an antiques & collectibles shop, which was a Cross sub-brand called Penetia.  Turned out the "pen guy" there was actually someone from my local pen club, and he told me the pen took International Standard, and I was going "GREAT!  I can finally use the Edelstein Amethyst cartridges which were swag from the first Pelikan Hub I went to!"  Only they were the long cartridges and the barrel didn't fit over the cartridges (and using the pen without the barrel turned out to be *really* awkward).  Then I tried to get a converter (I prefer converters to cartridges), only NONE of the International Standard converters fit in the pen either -- but a Cross converter DID (don't remember if it needed the push-in type or the screw-in type....  Go figure....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Zegurk]

Thanks!

[Z man]

29 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

It's not just you.  

In my (admittedly limited) experience "International standard" isn't as "international" OR "standard" as it's made out to be.  I ran into that a couple of years ago with a pen I found in an antiques & collectibles shop, which was a Cross sub-brand called Penetia.  Turned out the "pen guy" there was actually someone from my local pen club, and he told me the pen took International Standard, and I was going "GREAT!  I can finally use the Edelstein Amethyst cartridges which were swag from the first Pelikan Hub I went to!"  Only they were the long cartridges and the barrel didn't fit over the cartridges (and using the pen without the barrel turned out to be *really* awkward).  Then I tried to get a converter (I prefer converters to cartridges), only NONE of the International Standard converters fit in the pen either -- but a Cross converter DID (don't remember if it needed the push-in type or the screw-in type....  Go figure....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Please forgive my inexperience, especially because I have no experience with Cross FPs. It seems you're saying standard short international cartridges would have fit your FP but long ones didn't. That's seems to be similar to using a long international cartridge or a converter in a Pilot VP, which wasn't designed for either.

 

If my suppositions are correct, standard international cartridges would have worked for the Cross. No affront is intended. I'm just trying to learn.

 

Thank you for any consideration,

Z

[A Smug Dill]

@Zegurk Welcome to FPN.

 

“International standard”, or “Standard International”, is a contentious marketing claim, and so I sincerely appreciate your careful wording of the question.

 

In general, “international standard” only means the cartridge has an opening of 2.4mm interior diameter, and an extended lip that has a narrower exterior diameter than the rest of the cartridge body. It implies nothing else about either the geometry (including length, exterior diameter, and taper), or the ink capacity/volume, of an ink cartridge that fits the description. Then, there are (short) “international standard” cartridges, and “international standard long” cartridges.

 

The “international” part is misleading to consumers, especially in today's fountain pen market landscape.

• None of the major Japanese fountain pen brands use that format of ink cartridge, or even just something with that bore diameter (and ignoring all other aspects of the geometry) at the opening. Pilot sells a variant of the MR product line (inclusive of MR Metropolitan, MR Animal, and MR Retro Pop) — only in the European market, if I'm not mistaken — that is “refillable with international standard ink cartridges”, and Platinum makes an Adapter ”for European size ink cartridge”.
  • Each of the Japanese Big Three fountain pen manufacturers has its own proprietary “standard” ink cartridge format. Pilot's “standard” applies to the Pilot and Namiki brands; Platinum's “standard” to Platinum and Nakaya; and Sailor's “standard” does not apply to its (discontinued) Chalana line, but all of its modern/current production models.
• (Mainland) Chinese fountain pen manufacturers also do not use that format of ink cartridge as standard, even though unlike the Japanese brands, they tend not to each have a proprietary “standard”, but stick to one of two quasi-standard formats common in China — one of which has a 2.6mm-bore opening, and the other has a 3.4mm-bore opening.
  • Some Chinese brands make some models that use 2.6mm-bore and other models that use 3.4mm-bore; and some even have models (that specifically use Schmidt or Bock nibs) that use 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges.
• I'm not entirely sure about Korean fountain pen brands; but I vaguely recall that Monami ink cartridges are 2.3mm-bore.
• Aurora, being a major Italian brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.
• Lamy, being a major German brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.
• Parker, being a major American(?) brand, does not sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges or use those in its cartridge/converter-filled pen models.

So, the format falls wells short of even being a “national standard” across all fountain pen manufacture within a given country in the West, let alone an “international standard”. Mostly, the fountain pen models that use nibs of JoWo or Bock manufacture will use 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges and converters; and most ink brands that are not in themselves fountain pen brands of note sell 2.4mm-bore ink cartridges.

 

1 hour ago, Zegurk said:

I own both a Diplomat Magnum (bought from Goulet) and a Loushi Labyrinth (bought from Truphae), which I believed to be both standard international pens.

 

Luoshi is a Chinese brand. I'm pretty sure Luoshi pens (of which I have a few, but haven't used for years) come with 2.6mm-bore converters; ergo, they use 2.6mm-bore, not “international standard” 2.4mm-bore, ink cartridges.

 

1 hour ago, Zegurk said:

I also bought some extra cartages and converters* from Jinhao on AliExpress and figured those would be standard international as everywhere says that Jinhao only makes standard international pens,

 

Most Jinhao pen models (including the oft-mentioned X750, 51A, 992, etc.) take 2.6mm-bore cartridges, although some (such as the Jinhao 35) take 3.4mm-bore cartridges. I can't think of any Jinhao models offhand that use Schmidt, Bock, or JoWo nibs, and therefore I don't know any that use 2.4mm-bore cartridges.

 

As far as I know, Jinhao makes and sells (only) ink cartridges of both of those bore diameters, but not 2.4mm-bore.

 

2 hours ago, Zegurk said:

the Diplomat is only compatible with the converter I got with it from Goulet and the Loushi seems to only work with the Jinhaos. What am I missing?

 

I'm pretty sure Diplomat-branded converters are just rebranded Schmidt (K5) converters, and so your Diplomat pen should be compatible with converters of at least these brands: Diplomat (of course), Schmidt (models K1, K2, K5, and most likely K6), Monteverde, Pelikan, Rotring, S.T. Dupont, Visconti, and Waterman; and most likely Caran d'Ache, Kaweco, and Leonardo Officina Italiana as well, even though they have external threads just like the Schmidt K6.

 

But I wouldn't recommend you look for a compatible converter for the Diplomat pen, from either a Chinese seller or a Chinese brand, if you're trying to save on expense and find the retail pricing of those European-branded converters disagreeable in comparison.

 

The Luoshi should be able to take Jinhao and Wing Sung branded 2.6mm-bore converters, and any number of other assorted Chinese brands of (or perhaps non-branded) 2.6mm-bore converters. (Note: PenBBS and HongDian use 3.4mm-bore converters exclusively, as far as I know. Delike converters are 2.6mm-bore but have no lip in their geometry, and that can cause a problem with some other-branded pens.)

 

56 minutes ago, Z man said:

If my suppositions are correct, standard international cartridges would have worked for the Cross.

 

Cross-branded fountain pen models uses a proprietary ink cartridge format, if I'm not mistaken. The thinner lip part of the cartridge is much longer on Cross ink cartridges than on (short) “international standard” ones.

 

[Z man]

28 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

@Zegurk Welcome to FPN.

 

...

Cross-branded fountain pen models uses a proprietary ink cartridge format, if I'm not mistaken. The thinner lip part of the cartridge is much longer on Cross ink cartridges than on (short) “international standard” ones.

 

Thank you for this most elucidating explanation of international cartridges. This is surely more complicated than imagined, and I take full responsibility for my errors.

 

If I understand your explanation, then, @inkstainedruth was in error as to her expectation for Cross FPs using international cartridges as I was given both of our admitted inexperience. 

 

Thanks, again, for your explanation,

 

Z

 

[inkstainedruth]

It wasn't just my expectations.  I was flat out TOLD that's what the pen took.  And then when I went looking at a pen show for a converter to fit, none of the "International Standard" converters fit right -- but a Cross converter did.  

As far as the Pelikan cartridges, I'm back to not having a pen that will fit them except a couple of Pellikan M22s (the barrel of the 1980s Pelikano, sadly, having snapped right at the ink window  -- for being a pen that I paid five bucks for at a pen show, it had a nice smooth writing nib) 

I honestly don't know if International Standard short cartridges would have fit the Penetia or not.  But since I was able to find a converter that DID fit, it's mostly all good (other than not being able to used the Edelstein Amethyst carts.

I don't know if this is still the case, but a number of years ago someone on FPN  made a list of what cartridges and converters fit in which brands.  And -- at least at the time -- Parker ones would fit in at least SOME Aurora pens.  And possibly in some Lamy pens as well (although converters for the Safari family are easy enough to get). 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

And -- at least at the time -- Parker ones would fit in at least SOME Aurora pens.

 

Yes, Parker converters can be used in Aurora c/c-filled models such as the Ipsilon, Tu, Talentum, etc., but not the Ottantotto and Optima piston-filler models, of course. (I only learnt the other day that there is at least one c/c-filled Ottantotto model.) 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm so glad most of my pens are piston.

I do have Pelikan (no converter...Just Edelsteain and 4001 cartridges) , Parker,and Lamy cartridge pens, that I have converters for.

I didn't realize how lucky I've been.

 

I'd have to look and see what cartridge I had in my DuPont, but it (being a nail) never got much work.

I obviously didn't have any problems with that pen, but now remember having read about others that did.

It has the converter that was in it.

Bought used of course...Grumble cubed...it was back in the day of live at an auction (no telephone or computer), and being almost alone in the hall, it being the deep summer, had hopes of getting it for the E-20 opening.....but the woman sitting right next to me was trying to buy it for her husband, so it cost me E-90

[Ink Stained Wretch]

On 6/24/2022 at 7:33 PM, inkstainedruth said:

It wasn't just my expectations.  I was flat out TOLD that's what the pen took.  ....

 

And what you were told was correct! I was gifted a Cross Penatia years ago and a short international cartridge worked perfectly in it. I was disappointed that a long international cartridge was too big for it, but the pen worked fine with that ubiquitous cartridge. If it had taken a long international cartridge it might have become my meeting fountain pen. That Penatia is mostly metal and any rough stuff at a meeting, while the pen is capped, would not affect it.

 

The Penatia came in two versions, both were all steel but one had some black plastic covering part of the barrel. The other was just mirror-bright steel that could be quite  noticeable on a sunny day.

 

It's a very good fountain pen, IMO.

[inkstainedruth]

Well, every International Standard converter I tried to buy did NOT fit in the Penetia -- but a Cross converter did....

The one I have has a sort of rubbery cover to the barrel and a ring of the same material (which has come unglued and I haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.  Since I don't mostly use cartridges to begin with, I didn't have any International Standard carts besides the packet of Edelstein Amethyst ones, and those were the long size.  

Of course, once I got a converter for it, the cartridges became a moot point for the most part.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[InesF]

Reading about standard cartridges or converter that do not fit into fountain pens that explicitly require them surprises me. Such never happened to me.

Quite frequently I experience a cartridge to become widened after 20 (or more) refills and become loose inside the fountain pen with some shaking. But I would not call that a manufacturing failure.

 

There are some highly informative pages listing the dimensions of cartridges / converters, such as:

The pen refill guide

or

Unsharpen

 

[A Smug Dill]

14 minutes ago, InesF said:

There are some highly informative pages listing the dimensions of cartridges / converters, such as:

The pen refill guide

or

Unsharpen

 

Alas, I think the inner diameter stated by Unsharpen for “international standard” cartridges is way off the mark.

[InesF]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

Alas, I think the inner diameter stated by Unsharpen for “international standard” cartridges is way off the mark.

Haha, indeed! That can't be. I guess they mismatched with the outer diameter of the "nipple".

Inner must be something like 2 or 2.5 mm.

[recluse]

In my experience, when it comes to "standard international", cartridges and converters should be completely separated. Converters are usually made of a harder plastic and, therefore, manifest more readily variations in the converter opening and the receiving nipple diameters. Given a random standard international pen and a random standard international converter chances that they won't work together are not that slim. Observed this enough to not separate pens from fitting converters (if I use the pen with a converter for some reason).

 

With cartridges variations are not that strong but nevertheless are present, especially between short and long cartridges.

 

As an illustration. Sheaffer CC pens use a proprietary system. No standard international converters will fit them, the opening is too wide. I just double checked on some dozen of converters of different origins. However, the pens will accept any short international cartridge without any problem, although one can see that there's some variation between cartridges of different manufacturers. Not so simple with long cartridges (and I'm not talking lengthwise): Pelikan's plainly doesn't fit, Waterman's is also slightly too wide, Online's (standard international/Lamy) pretty much fits.

 

Bottom line: when in doubt, use cartridges. Just check first that they fit the barrel. Some standard international pens (for instance, Waterman Phileas) have inserts making them unsuitable for short cartridges.

[Waltz For Zizi]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:48 PM, inkstainedruth said:

Well, every International Standard converter I tried to buy did NOT fit in the Penetia -- but a Cross converter did....

The one I have has a sort of rubbery cover to the barrel and a ring of the same material (which has come unglued and I haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.  Since I don't mostly use cartridges to begin with, I didn't have any International Standard carts besides the packet of Edelstein Amethyst ones, and those were the long size.  

Of course, once I got a converter for it, the cartridges became a moot point for the most part.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

If a pen takes a standard international cartridge or converter either if the barrel screws or not IT IS a standard international kind of pen. I also have pens that are too short to take anything else but the short international cartridge, or too slim to take any international converters.

 

[A Smug Dill]

9 hours ago, Waltz For Zizi said:

I also have pens that are too short to take anything else but the short international cartridge, or too slim to take any international converters.

 

Really? I measured a few with (consumer-grade, and not the most precise, digital) callipers just now, and the widest part of a short ‘standard international’ ink cartridge measures 7.4(±0.1)mm across, while the widest part on the Schmidt K1 converter is 7.6mm across. The Schmidt K5 is wider, and therefore so are a variety of rotary-driven converters offered by such fountain pen brands that simply sells rebranded converters manufactured by Schmidt as their own retail products; but they certainly don't make up all ‘standard international’ converters, even those most users don't have them on hand if they only have converters that came supplied with fountain pens, and/or only buy replacement/spare converters of those fountain pen (re)brands.

 

Note: Faber-Castell converters are, as far as I can tell, rebranded Schmidt K2 converters and not Schmidt K5 converters. They are therefore not as wide at their widest part, but are nevertheless ‘standard international’ converters by virtue of their connector geometry.