Debate: a more systematically defined FLEX nib classification (based on large vintage 14k flex nib samples and data)

[Bo Bo Olson]

Quite a nice chart....more than I ask from my nibs.....

Ease of flex matters as much or more than width...IMO.

 

Regular flex (soft +)when pushed goes out to 3 X a light down stroke....but one can't write maxed.

Semi-flex (soft ++) and maxi-semi-flex  (soft +++) one can, but one gets to the point where one's hand is light enough to ask for line variation instead of ham fisted always max. Again I see them as 3 X a light down stroke nibs.

More than that for this flex set range...is IMO nib abuse. The semi-maxi are flair nibs, not calligraphy nibs.

 

Superflex.....are calligraphy nibs.

for me Easy Full Flex...which would be the 'flex'- 'full flex' range of the example....again how much pressure is needed to max what ever that nib is. (Soft ++++)

 

I don't have any of the modern cut and chopped flex nibs...just old vintage ones. I see Easy Full flex as more a flex pressure rating, in with the old nibs, 4-5 is normal tine spread with out pressuring the nib. 6 is a good nib and 7X is rare...outside on You Tube and someone selling  already sprung nibs for your convenience.

 

I have three Wet Noodles..)soft +++++)...one a 6 x, one a two stage 7x and one a smooth 7X... Lower dip pen range.

I don't press my nibs as wide as shown...no where near. Nor is my hand writing any where near as good.

And I lucked into a Weak kneed Wet noodle, pre-23 MB Safety Pen, that requires much, less pressure than a Wet Noodle, like half.

It is 'only' a 6 X nib..... but boy is it soft. (Soft ++++++) Mid dip pen range.

I think my wide is about Flex...not as wide as Full Flex.

 

What ink is being used???

 

R&K Salix is a dry ink.

 

 

I had a local jeweler make the silver snake head with emerald eyes and out of 950 Parisian silver.

My wife got it for 'free' and was in very bad beater shape. Fancis took 80-90 years off the pen. Simplo # 6 nib.

Before it was restored and polished.

 

I was supposed to learn how to write when I got my first superflex...near a decade ago.., my first wet noodle....and still haven't started when Francis resurrected this gem to me.

[txomsy]

Other than @Bo Bo Olson's excellent scale, there was an attempt some years back by some Spanish or Italian guys to define a more objective standard for flex pressure using an electronic balance and (I believe) a kind of arm to hold the pen in a fixed position (or something alike), but as far as I can tell, i doesn't seem to have stuck.

 

I do think it is not a bad idea and a good start, but probably there were too many confounding variables that are difficult to control (pen angle, writing speed, direction of pressure,... not to mention the time to snap back/spring factor, and the influence of ink paper and feeder). And though objective, in real life, each person has their own writing habits and vices/virtues, but it should be indicative.

 

Anyway, the thread should be somewhere here in FPN, and I seem to also remember that the idea had also been posted to a Spanish or Italia forum (or maybe both?).

[txomsy]

About snap back... despite all the insistence in its myth status, lots of Quantum Dynamics and Molecular Dynamics simulations (not in metallic bands, I recognize, but on biological materials), tell me that the "spring" factor of materials depends on bond flexibility and a hoard of many other interactions. So it can hardly be considered in isolation by itself: it will all depend on use case.

 

I am not denying that on a band model in material science with normalized calculations it may not seem moot, and it may not look too fast to be an issue. In real life, everybody's experience tells us it is not the case, and when theory and real life collude, the latter always has precedence, and shows the theory wrong or incomplete.

 

100+ years ago it would likely have been easier to measure using a music roll (you know one of the earlier music players that worked on a cylindrical drum). The closest analogue I can come up today is a Richter scale earthquake roll recorder, if that's still used. Or a press rotary.

 

One might take a cylindrical drum moving at a realistically fixed "writing" speed, have an arm with a weight to hold a pen at a fixed angle, and connect the arm to an eccentric wheel/ellipse coupled to the moving roll to make the pen go up and down periodically, also at a fixed speed. One would need only to calibrate the speeds (and maybe attack angle and maximal weight) and be able to swap papers and pens.

 

The up and down movement would force tin spread and snap back, the weight would define the maximum pressure applied, and the line drawn would show the maximal width attained and snap back at varying pressure. Then one could try different pen/ink/nib/angle/pressure combinations and get a nice graphical result that could be measured. Nicest, one would not need a balance, only a fixed weight.

 

For comparability one might define a standard set of pressure/speed, and then we'd have all the measures we'd like on the paper. And a good engineer can make all the required calculations on resulting pressures, speeds, etc.  at each time point.

 

It would still miss the shear factor, i.e. writing in oblique/slanted/sideways directions (but might be simulated placing the pen partially rotated), which may bring up some additional interesting considerations, or rotating the nib (which is something many people do while writing), but would give a more accurate idea.

 

Maybe a Mecano set can do it, I do not know, I stopped playing with Mecano sets very, very long ago. That I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.

 

Added: come to think of it, maybe all one needs is to modify a turn table (a vinyl disk player for those unfamiliar with stone-age technologies).

[Bo Bo Olson]

That was quite well thought out Txomsy.

.................................

Back when I was developing my 1/2 1nd 1/2 system, our kitchen didn't have an electronic scale....and a good decade ago, someone did try using one....with a lot of trouble as Txomsy mentioned.

 

Being in Germany at the HQ for semi-flex, I had more than most folks....have for quite a while 35 semi-flex and 15 maxi-semi-flex....a term I invented.

I had run into a Rupp nib...a Heidelberg nib maker from 1922-70, that was much more flexible than my other semi-flex nibs, I walked around in a daze for three days, muttering it certainly was a maxi-semi-flex.

I then tested my other semi-flex and found out in total I had 5 maxi's, including a 400nn's OF....with the Rupp still most flexible.

 

I don't push my semi or maxi's more than a 3 X a light down stroke. It gives me natural pressure FLAIR. Line variation.

 

I've read Richard Binder's fine article on metal fatigue and having old nibs that are hard to replace strive to stay in limits.

For superflex ...ie nibs that spread their tines 4-5 or often 5-6 and seldom 7 X (not with out fear of springing the nib.

After finding out what that nib will spread too, I try to 'comfortably' stay one width under that max.

 

I have a 100n post war superflex 5 X tine spread gold nib....but I strive to stay at 4 x with that nib.

Same with Wet noodles....one 6X I am happy with 5 X...and 6 X works with the  two 7 X max nibs i have. I feel there is no need to max such a nib all the time.

 

I do have dip pens that tine spread more than I can find an ink for....If I got to  go for th efences.

 

If i had the modern cheap many slit wet noodle plus nibs, I'd try to go for wider than Texas....but I don't so stay at a lowerelimit than what is possible with modern modified nibs.

.................

The Ahab semi-flex is a hard and not fun semi-flex nib. However if the Ahab/Pilot half moon mods in the base of the nib is made, that Ahab nib becomes a fun Easy Full Flex.

Ah Ha, a nib I can push...so the next time I I see super wide, I should get my Ahab out and go for it.

 

Still want to know what ink is used to go so wide.

 

[LordCactus]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:59 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

That was quite well thought out Txomsy.

.................................

Back when I was developing my 1/2 1nd 1/2 system, our kitchen didn't have an electronic scale....and a good decade ago, someone did try using one....with a lot of trouble as Txomsy mentioned.

 

Being in Germany at the HQ for semi-flex, I had more than most folks....have for quite a while 35 semi-flex and 15 maxi-semi-flex....a term I invented.

I had run into a Rupp nib...a Heidelberg nib maker from 1922-70, that was much more flexible than my other semi-flex nibs, I walked around in a daze for three days, muttering it certainly was a maxi-semi-flex.

I then tested my other semi-flex and found out in total I had 5 maxi's, including a 400nn's OF....with the Rupp still most flexible.

 

I don't push my semi or maxi's more than a 3 X a light down stroke. It gives me natural pressure FLAIR. Line variation.

 

I've read Richard Binder's fine article on metal fatigue and having old nibs that are hard to replace strive to stay in limits.

For superflex ...ie nibs that spread their tines 4-5 or often 5-6 and seldom 7 X (not with out fear of springing the nib.

After finding out what that nib will spread too, I try to 'comfortably' stay one width under that max.

 

I have a 100n post war superflex 5 X tine spread gold nib....but I strive to stay at 4 x with that nib.

Same with Wet noodles....one 6X I am happy with 5 X...and 6 X works with the  two 7 X max nibs i have. I feel there is no need to max such a nib all the time.

 

I do have dip pens that tine spread more than I can find an ink for....If I got to  go for th efences.

 

If i had the modern cheap many slit wet noodle plus nibs, I'd try to go for wider than Texas....but I don't so stay at a lowerelimit than what is possible with modern modified nibs.

.................

The Ahab semi-flex is a hard and not fun semi-flex nib. However if the Ahab/Pilot half moon mods in the base of the nib is made, that Ahab nib becomes a fun Easy Full Flex.

Ah Ha, a nib I can push...so the next time I I see super wide, I should get my Ahab out and go for it.

 

Still want to know what ink is used to go so wide.

 

Waterman mysterious blue and diamine poppy red are great for flex writing

[Bo Bo Olson]

9 hours ago, LordCactus said:

Waterman mysterious blue

I don't know if I have any of the old name of that left....it is possible. Thanks.

[AceNinja]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:44 AM, LordCactus said:

Waterman mysterious blue and diamine poppy red are great for flex writing

I dunno why but this suddenly came to mind: Can you write "minimum" with your 10mm flex?

[txomsy]

In a single, landscape A4 sheet??? 😁

[Bo Bo Olson]

I would like to see a picture of that nib that just wrote, waterman.

It must be chopped real good.

 

I have two 7 X wet noodles that I strive to keep at 6X so not to spring them, and I get nothing in the world like that.

I'm not sure I can get that with my Hunt 99-100-101s. I could never get that much ink to stay on the nibs with out railroading.

[LordCactus]

16 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I would like to see a picture of that nib that just wrote, waterman.

It must be chopped real good.

 

I have two 7 X wet noodles that I strive to keep at 6X so not to spring them, and I get nothing in the world like that.

I'm not sure I can get that with my Hunt 99-100-101s. I could never get that much ink to stay on the nibs with out railroading.

tada. The feed system is really good, it will basically never railroad as long as you use a nice wet ink, even when you flex to 7mm or 8mm: 

 

[LordCactus]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:45 AM, AceNinja said:

I dunno why but this suddenly came to mind: Can you write "minimum" with your 10mm flex?

I just gave this nib away, I'll write minimum when I make the next one!

[LordCactus]

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have slick feeds on my antique** wet noodles and my one and only Weak Kneed Wet Noodle, but they don't keep up....with that what I just saw.............of course I'm scared to push the nibs more than 6X.

 

**Anything over a hundred years is an antique.

 

Are you using dip pen nibs? With a beeswax bedding?

Someone else's picture.

 

[LordCactus]

9 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I have slick feeds on my antique** wet noodles and my one and only Weak Kneed Wet Noodle, but they don't keep up....with that what I just saw.............of course I'm scared to push the nibs more than 6X.

 

**Anything over a hundred years is an antique.

 

Are you using dip pen nibs? With a beeswax bedding?

Someone else's picture.

 

No, I am using jinhao #6 nibs I modified myself, and a flexible plastic overunder feed combined with a good blue polymer main feed

[Bo Bo Olson]

2 hours ago, LordCactus said:

overunder feed combined with a good blue polymer main feed

...now I 'start' to understand....still what a Wheee !!