Debate: a more systematically defined FLEX nib classification (based on large vintage 14k flex nib samples and data)

[Bo Bo Olson]

I obviously lack the tools to measure the spread of my tines.

I do have all the flex rates.

Of course my system don't work quite, when doing BB or BBB nibs.

 

First thing I find wrong with that chart, is hard/nail...has no tine spread.

I don't see regular flex as hard.

 

Semi-nail can be mashed out to 2X (P-75/modern Pleikan 400/600)....the real heavy handed can write so mashed.

 

In what I call the 3 X tine set.

Regular flex is soft+

Semi-flex is soft ++

Maxi-semi-flex is soft +++

 

To save nibs from getting sprung, I limit the tine spread to 3 X with the below flex rates................yes folks can force the nibs wider....but only to spring them sooner than later..................I had a few threads where I showed what I saw as nib abuse of semi-flex....that some said.....my nib, my repair...if possible.

Some I'm sure sell the nib/pen, with out telling folks, it was pre-sprung for their convenience.

 

Regular flex can be mashed out to 3 X....but so mashed one can not write with it.

Semi-flex takes half that pressure to reach 3X.

Maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3 X.

 

Superflex...........by me is not only how wide the nib goes but the ease of tine spread. Once I've established how wide the nib will go, I strive to stay one flex rate under the max. Ie I have a Pelikan 100n that will go 5 X, so for me 4 X is wide enough.

I'm sure I have one 4 X superflex nib. Most go 5-6, and only a very  few go out to 7X...............

What I call easy full flex is again half so much pressure as a maxi....1/8th ....I don't have any of them that goes 'easily' to 7 X...5-6 X is normal in the pens I have. 1/8th the pressure to mash a regular flex to 3 X.

Wet Noodle requires half the pressure of a Easy Full Flex. or 1/16th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex/Japanese soft nib.

I have three. two 52's: one goes to 6 X, the other is a two stage 7x. My Soenecken is a smooth 7 X nib.

The Wet Noodle is in the bottom 3rd or 4th of the dip pen nib flex rates.

 

My unexpected Weak Kneed Wet Noodle........well does it go 1/32nd or is that 1/64th...or in between. Superflex is not an exact flex rate when one has enough of them

It is in the middle of the dip pen rates. Of course  it will go 7X....perhaps even more but I'm not brave enough to see if 7 X is all it will do...............I don't have a spare.

It was such a dull 'free' pen.

My wife advised some guy on his prices at a street flee market. She asked him if he inkwells of fountain pens. He went into his house and came out with a pen that didn't work*. She took it for spare parts. Francis did a wonder on it.

I had seen a similar MB Safety pen in a  alive auction, so I had pressed a Weak Kneeded Wet Noodle to my thumb before.

*He didn't know about twisting the end of the pen to make then nib slide up.

 

 

I don't have the tools to measure exact tine spread....never will. My system will work for anyone who has a regular flex/Japanese soft nibbed pen. I'm into about how much pressure is needed to spread the tines how wide. Horseshoe close. With out tools.

As they say in the old country, close enough for government work.

 

IMO I see a hell of a lot of extreme tine spread on this test to destruction chart. But then again they have the repair people on site.

 

If you have a regular flex/Japanese soft,

1/2, 1/4th, 1/8th, 1/16th less pressure works close and near enough. (Not counting Weak Kneed Wet noodles.)

In superflex some nibs do 5 X, others 6X...I am told here on the com, 7X is rare....in spite of all one sees on how to spring a nib youtube and paper showing 7X on an Ebay sale. Are you going to be lucky and the nib is not sprung?.....or is it unaccountable mushy from being sprung?

A good guy on the com thinks all Wet Noodles are mushy. I'm lucky none of mine are.

 

Those who can write (not me)  care more for fast snapback over how fat and wide one can make a nib write.

 

 

[Grayspoole]

1 hour ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Those who can write (not me)  care more for fast snapback over how fat and wide one can make a nib write.

 

 

This!

[duckbillclinton]

On 7/4/2022 at 8:18 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

First thing I find wrong with that chart, is hard/nail...has no tine spread.

 

@Bo Bo Olson I agree with you on the firm nib part.  Recently I had several bad auctions online due to the sellers provided little to none info regarding the nib, so I ended up buying 7 dead nails.  Among these, 3 are manifolds from Waterman and Wahl Eversharp, then 2 Parkers and 2 Sheaffers.  Before this, I never thought the term "dead nails" was possible for gold nibs, but I was wrong... and... you are right, @Bo Bo Olson, there are really firm gold nibs that have nearly NO tine spread.  For the firm nib Parkers and Sheaffers, if I press hard enough (without deforming, obviously), I could get the tine to open to about 0.2 mm, that's only half of the tip size.  The Waterman and Wahl manifold nibs played wonders, no matter how hard I pressed, they could only open like 0.1 mm, or say, no openings.  😰😰😰 

 

On the other hand though, as I mentioned before, my proposed table is more of a statistical summary of many vintage gold nib pens.  It's a very general summary.  The regular nibs and firm nibs are actually grouped together, and the tine opening has a minimum of 0 and a possible maximum of 0.4 mm.  So your comment of hard/ nail have no tine spread, actually, falls into the minimum.

 

Regarding your rating system, I very much agree with your tine spread/ opening classification.  The tine spread increment you proposed is linear (from 1X to 7X), and it is not exponential.  I remember in the old days, some flex nib fans claimed different grades of flex should have a 2x growth in line variation, exponentially that is, it's just unrealistic.  Imagine if we have a nib with tip size of 0.5mm, so tine opening for semi flex would be 2x, full flex 4x, super flex 8x, then wet noodle will have to be 16x, right?  Wait, we are in trouble, even at super flex level, the tine opening will require 3.5mm spread (0.5mm*8-0.5mm=3.5mm), wet noodle will require tine spread of 7.5mm (0.5mm*16-0.5mm=7.5mm),  that's just insane and unreal!  However, if our tip size is reduce to 0.2mm, this becomes a possibility, because even at the 16X wet noodle level, it requires about 3mm tine spread (0.2mm*16-0.2mm=3mm), a still very doable range. 

 

In reality, the tip size is just about how we grind the tip, and it has nothing to do with the tine opening, so it should be taken away, and we should only focus on tine spread.  With such in mind, with 1X to 7X tine spread as you suggested, I am assuming we are talking about European tip size F of 0.5mm and XF of 0.4mm, then at 7X, it's 3.5mm to 2.8mm tine spread, it is stretching the limit, however, it is still doable.  Given such, our proposals on the time spread are actually in sync for the most parts, as if we took 0.3mm tip size from my table, 7X tine spread is achieved.

 

On the other hand though, regarding the pressure/ force required to open the tines, I will not agree with the decrement of 2X (exponentially) for higher grades of flex.  It is a misconception.  In reality, my test data shows the pressure/ force required to open the tines actually decrease linearly as well, and more importantly, the decrement step is far smaller than we imagined.  I will post some photos from my cell phone for now, and post some explanations tomorrow (for real, it won't be weeks, LOL). 

 

(By the way, I fully respect your choice of not having any measurement instrument at the moment, but still, my friend, buying a digital caliper and a mini digital scale online is cheap, and it will give you a lot of new joy, I promise.😉😉😉  Oh, almost forgot, you inquired if I had read a paper on metal fatigue on another post, I didn't have time to do it, but I had done related readings with material science textbooks in the past.  Also, I bought another Columbus pen recently, got ripped off, the barrel is excellent, but the nib was not original, the seller even "stole" pieces of gold from the end of the nib, found this out by taking the nib and feed out, the nib was cracked in the rear also, sigh.) 

[duckbillclinton]

Photos for @Bo Bo Olson 😉😉😉

 

Homemade weak kneed wet noodle. (Modified from Jinhao 601)

 

Tip size: 0.3mm

 

Line variation: 0.28mm to 3mm ,  11X.  (orange ink writings on paper)

 

Tine spread: 2.7mm

 

Strength required to reach max tine spread, 206 gram of force (2.02 Newton).

 

 

[duckbillclinton]

@Bo Bo Olson Vintage 14K nib wet noodle in comparison.  This pen's nib was cracked when bought, and I sent it to an online jewelry shop for laser spotweld repair.  It was an experiment to see if the shop repair was any good, so I could use it in the future.  2 cracked nibs were sent to repair, ended up good results.  I had specifically ask the shop not to grind away/ flatten/ polish the welded spots, and "blisters" remain still, so I can check their weld quality.  The laser repair actually narrow down the breath hole a bit, so the tine spread is reduced to 1.8mm at max.  Eventually, I will ask my 20 year experienced but now retired jeweler friend to do the grinding and polishing for me (for free 😅), and that should also restore the breath hole to its original shape and should allow a 2.0mm time spread (maybe up to 2.2mm).

 

The force reading is 461 gram when tine spread max at 1.8mm.

 

 

[duckbillclinton]

@Bo Bo Olson Another vintage gold nib wet noodle, an unknown 30s Waterman InkVue nib (barrel is custom made by some Japanese shop).  Max tine spread, 2.2mm.

 

 

[duckbillclinton]

@Bo Bo Olson Another Waterman wet noodle (haven't had time to clean the nib).  Max tine spread: 2.3mm

 

 

After nib cleaning.🤣🤣🤣

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

14 hours ago, duckbillclinton said:

buying a digital caliper and a mini digital scale online is cheap,

Unfortunately I live from auction to auction.

$ cubed...(make that $ Euro)

Inkwells are not near as cheap as they once were.

Over in paper and paraphernalia, I have a couple threads showing how I blow money other than pens. Inkwells& inkwell sets, some pencil cases.

Mid last month.

I'm glad my hard willed wife did the bidding in I'd chickened out.

I really didn't start out looking for pencil boxes. This is a real fancy one.

 

Most importantly though, the way you do it is a hell of a lot of hard work....and I'm scribbling books in my 'spare' time.

[duckbillclinton]

8 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Most importantly though, the way you do it is a hell of a lot of hard work

 

Not so hard work as analyzing how flex nib pen works and fooling around with steel nib modifications helps me to relax.  I do understand your points though, anyways, that ink well and pencil box are beautiful.

 

Back to the pressure (force/ strength) requirement for flex writing discussion...

 

From the sample photos I posted yesterday, and from my way of testing (it's biased), the vintage wet noodles I owned tend to max out tine spread at around the high 300s and low 400s grams of force. 

 

The modified Jinhao 601, certainly meets your definition of "weak kneed wet noodle", because when the tine spread is maxed out, the pressure/ force required is only 206 grams, half of that a vintage wet noodle uses (at least, for the ones that I own).

 

Using your 1/n-th analogy, let's not get into the crazy 1/32th, 1/64th figures, instead, let's say, we use a more reasonable 1/8th figure, then with your definition, a regular gold nib that is capable of some flex, like a 0.4mm tine spread, when performing flex write, compare to my modified Jinhao 601, it's going to require 8X the pressure/ force, so simple math,

 

206 grams * 8 = 1648 grams of force, that's 1.6 KG

 

Wait...  Does the above mean that...  when we flex write a regular gold nib pen, assuming we are using 3 fingers to hold the pen, we will need 1.6KG of force?  Well, our 3 fingers must be very strong, because our writing is going to be like lifting and whipping a 1.5 liter water bottle with 3 fingers.  Depending on personal habit, maybe some would write with 4 fingers, or even 5 fingers, 😉.  That still don't change the fact of 1.6KG force requirement.  In the US though, writing with 5 fingers, that's 5 figures, you may get a discount.🤣

 

So how about we do the 1/4th instead, well, still...

 

206 grams * 4 = 824 grams of force

 

That's the weight of roughly, 2 cans of soda.  In that case, will we be flex writing like whipping 2 cans of soda? 

 

Please note that a lot of the modern gold nib pens, like pens from Mont Blanc, Aurora, Parker, Pilot and etc. are quite capable of delivering a 0.4mm tine spread, and with these pens we perform wide strokes frequently in long writings, and we are not getting tired, that definitely implies the force we used is not going to be the 1.5 liter water bottle or 2 cans of beer.

 

Imagine if we are talking about 1/16th, 1/32th, and 1/64th, that would be scary.

 

OK, that's enough writing for now.  I will provide proper explanation of flex write vs pressure (force) in my future posts.  

 

(to be continued)

[txomsy]

I think you got it backwards.

 

What @Bo Bo Olson says is that if you need to apply a force of (say) 100u (units) to flex a semiflex nib, then you would need half that (50u) to flex a flex nib, and 1/4th (25u) to flex a FullFlex, and 1/8th (12.5u) a MaxiFlex, 1/16th (6u) a Wet Noodle, 3u a Weak Kneed Wet Noodle, etc... or whatever, can't remember exactly the scale and ratios right now, and actually do not care.

 

For me, it is the idea that matters, and I consider it a subjective reference by the way: first because it does not define "flex", second it only refers to the force applied and does so in subjective (as in how one feels) terms, not measurable, third, because it subsumes in "flex" all the subjective variables associated (tine spread, snap-back, elasticity, resilience) and assumes that they are appropriately present (e.g. the nib is not sprung, writing speed is "normal" for otherwise there is no way to talk of snap-back, etc...) and fourth, because there is no reference to compare to (it is all subjective, though if we consider an FPR or Noodler's standard flex nib "semiflex", then we may have a starting point). So, at best, I consider it a useful semi-quantitative (ordinal) scale based on a set of common (and undefined) assumptions and subjective feeling measures.

 

You seem to multiply instead of dividing.

[dipper]

5 hours ago, duckbillclinton said:

Back to the pressure (force/ strength) requirement for flex writing discussion...

I think you are on the right lines to talk about a ratio "something/something" instead of two separate values.

 

5 hours ago, duckbillclinton said:

..... so simple math ....

... but better if we can do the maths in advance, however simple, to give just one descriptive value, before discussing how nib A compares to nib B.

 

I suggest a single one-value concept needed here for nib flex description is "compliance".

In everyday speech, when we say something or some person "is compliant" we mean "readily capable of change", "flexible", "easily adjustable". Or also "can change behaviour to obey some new law or rule". "Compliance" is the inverse of "Stiffness".

 

In science and engineering the term "compliance" is more precisely defined, but with the same general meaning as in everyday speech.

Compliance of a flexible system = (Amount of change produced) divided by (Amount of force or pressure or other external factor that is applied to cause the change).

There are different named compliances in different areas of study.

A medical cardiologist may be interested in "ventricular compliance".

A car designer may be interested in buying a coil spring with a linear compression compliance of 5.2 mm/N.

 

I think flex pen nib users may be interested in a suitably defined "compliance" that describes the ratio between (tine distance spread sideways) and (force applied laterally by pressing down on the paper).

We need some suitable size unit for such a measurement. Something we can count easily. Not silly small values like 0.00000347, or crazy large values like 83,200,000.

 

Surveying my nib flex records I see a possible formulation:

 

Take the change in tine width, measured in microns (one thousandth of a mm), and divide that by the force applied down onto the paper, measured in grams weight.

That gives a value ranging from zero for a true "nail" nib, up to 15 for my most easily flexed dip pen nib (a vintage Gillott 170).

 

We need a name for this descriptive unit of measure. Hmmmm.....

"Width change in microns per gram weight transversely".... the whimpeget. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Measured and calculated compliances:

FPRevolution standard EF nib = 0.25 whimpeget

Noodlers flex nib (Ahab) = 2.5 whipeget

FPRevolution Ultraflex nib = 3.0 whimpeget

Leonardt 256 dip pen = 3.0 whimpeget

Geo. W. Hughes "Mercantile" 303M dip pen = 4.0 whimpeget

M.Myers & Son "G" dip pen = 5.0 whimpeget

Joseph Gillott 303 dip pen = 5.4 to 8.1 whimpeget (I have five examples, of varied ages and colours)

Tennis "G" dip pen = 8.8 whimpeget

Joseph Gillott 170 dip pen = 8.8 whimpeget (three nibs)

Joseph Gillott 170 dip pen = 15.0 whimpeget (one unusually flexible individual)

 

On 7/5/2022 at 8:35 AM, duckbillclinton said:

Another Waterman wet noodle (haven't had time to clean the nib).  Max tine spread: 2.3mm

... and gram weight scale reading shown in photo =436.92.

...gets calculator....and that is ......

5.3 whimpeget.

 

So, compared with my list of example values above, the Waterman wet noodle has almost double the compliance of a FPRevolution Ultraflex nib.

Almost exactly the same as the compliance of a Gillott 303 dip pen.

 

- o - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - o 

 

Closing notes:

 

"Whimpeget" is too silly a name to be tolerated. Somebody rename it, please!

 

This type of compliance is not the same thing as how far the tines bend upwards per force applied. That's OK though. I have defined and named (!) one type of compliance. Enough work for one day.

 

This value of compliance does not tell you what the maximum tine spread will be before the tines are "sprung". Again, that is a different property of a nib. However, the benefit of separating and defining terms, as suggested in this post, is that two nibs with compliances of 3.4 whimpeget and 3.5 whimpeget will have very similar writing responses when used with light to moderate pressure. For, say, 200g pressure applied they will both spread about the same distance. (0.7mm). How far out they can each go without being sprung is a different thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

33 minutes ago, txomsy said:

You seem to multiply instead of dividing.

In quantum mechanics and fountain pens, 1+1 often ='s 3.

[duckbillclinton]

5 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

In quantum mechanics and fountain pens, 1+1 often ='s 3.

LOL, what I did was an example of going backwards to show that your suggestion on the pressure is wrong.

 

I am speechless again as someone is, again and again, commenting without actually understanding the question.  Maybe the dream metal, dream composite material will one day come true, so his dream flex pen may become reality.  Oh, wait, the pen engineer, the almighty Amadeus already hinted him about it, it's already available, go back to feather pens, please, but he didn't understand.

 

@Bo Bo Olson I do get your point of, say, for example, from semi flex to super flex, it's not just tine spread will increase, but the pressure/ force required to operate will decrease as well, like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and so on.

 

However, the best vintage 14K wet noodles in my possession can max out tine spread with middle 300s in grams of force.  That's the best wet noodle among my now 70ish vintage flex pens, that's one out of 70, and that's a champion, and that's a rare super wet noodle.  Using your analogy, this wet noodle champion is going to need only 1/2 the force to operate compare to a super flex nib, right?  OK, then, using your analogy backwards, the super flex nib operating pressure will be 350*2=700 grams of force.  Now let's go to flex, a super flex nib needs only 1/2 the force to operate compare to flex, OK, using your analogy backwards again, the flex nib will operate at 700*2=1400 gram of force.  You see the problem yet?  No flex nib will, ever, operate at 1.4 KG of force.  It's actually not hard to prove your theory is wrong by using proof by contradiction.

 

In addition to the above, the reason why I use my homemade weak kneed wet noodle to prove you wrong, is that, this custom made wet noodle outperforms all my vintage 14k wet noodles (and most likely, outperforms any vintage 14k  wet noodles), and it required the least amount of force.

[duckbillclinton]

1 hour ago, dipper said:

We need a name for this descriptive unit of measure. Hmmmm.....

"Width change in microns per gram weight transversely".... the whimpeget. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Engineering much? Or too much?  LOL

 

We don't really need to get into such depth.  Approximation by common sense and experience is good enough, rulers, calipers, and mini scales are widely available to all pen users, and measurements made by them with simple calculation should be good enough.

[Aether]

I think y'all need to take a step back and ask yourself what, apart from idle curiosity, is the point of all this discussion.  No matter what measure you dream up it is never going to be adopted widely enough to be of any use to anyone.   Writer's who are serious about using flex for calligraphy gravitate naturally toward the king of noodles, the dip pen (far outperforming any FP nib in existence past or present).  For the rest who just want to add a bit of flair to their writing the way to go is edged nibs or nibs with some flexibility that don't require too much force (unlike Noodler's pens for example), because anything too technical will require a skill update which most writers are not prepared to acquire.

[txomsy]

Well, it may provide a reference for  prospective buyers, so they have a better idea what they are going to get.

[Bo Bo Olson]

In many of the new, think semi-flex does Olympic splits.

I strive to say, semi-flex.....in semi-flex to be a very hard to understand ...almost ...concept. Flex gets all the accent and stress of belief.....

 

I remember a fella who thought his regular flex nib was semi-flex, the nib bent and the tines spread.....a heavy handed nail user....It was a lesson to me.

I have mostly German pens.

I find most semi-flex (35) and maxi-semi-flex(15) to clump close together having only a MB rolled gold 742 that rides the middle.

Sometime a long time ago, someone went semi-FLEX and did Olympic splits....to a OPPS cubed.

That and I could be sure of not springing my semi-flex nibs at 3X.

 

When I got my first semi-flex a Pelikan 140 OB....I tried the nib on my thumbnail....and suddenly knew what all the fuss was all about with out even using ink.

 

Semi-flex if not tried to make the nib tines split like a superflex, is a robust nib. I was the typical heavy handed type...and the nib was mostly out there at 3 X...took me weeks before my Hand lighted down to mostly 2X and could be it was a good 3 months before I could get line variation On Demand....one has to be down to 1 X before one can Demand line variation, out to 2-3X. 

 

My next semi-flex was a 400NN OF....it wasn't until months later when I got my one and only Rupp nib, that is still the most flexible of my maxi-semi-flex nibs....that I invented the term maxi-semi-flex and found out that 400nn was a maxi..

Experience grows slow.

 

I had a '30's mandrel wrapped  black cracked ice, that still needs to be recorked. But the Rupp nib fit this pen, and is still in one.

Could be the nib went to 3 1/2...it went 3 very easily....but not to 4. I did have a no name German War pen with the first stage superflex 5-6 .....so I did know the difference.

The nib felt like it was near the limit at 3 1/2 so I backed off to 3.

One has to know when to back off the gas, instead of going for the Olympics.

 

That Rupp (Heidelberg nib maker 1922-70) wasn't a quite superflex but that was /still is one real flexi nib.  I walked around in a daze circle for some three days, muttering gee that is certainly one maxi-semi-flex nib......Then it dawned on me it WAS.

 

So I checked pens...20-25 or so pens. My Pelikan 400nn was more than semi-flex but not quite up to that Rupp's nib. But it was a maxi. There must have been another maxi, in the mostly semi-flex selection. In it became to me a flex rate....

For the most part the start of my 1/2 less pressure system.

 

I was in Germany sitting at the stone wall surrounding the semi-flex well.

 

Superflex...I do have one somewhere that to me is only a 4 X tine spread but easier than a maxi.

Superflex is both easier for tine spread, and wider than the 3 X 'limit' I placed on semi&maxi.

I have seen where folks really risk springing their nib pressing the tines out to 5 x and perhaps more....but the pressure required to do so would be very extreme....and the risk of springing it extreme nib abuse..

 

 

I do have an Easy Full Flex nib that goes out to 6 X (I think...I really don't worry if it goes 5 or 6 X....Ive a fe that are 5-6 and a couple that are 5X. The one that sticks in my mind is my Pelikan 100n that goes 5 X, but I strive to go only 4 X....in I have read Richard Binder's great article on metal fatigue, and strive to say a bit under max.

 

It's not how wide but how much pressure is needed.

I have a 6 X Wet Noodle...There is a difference of feel ,,,,if one is looking for it, between Easy Full Flex and Wet Noodle. There is a big enough difference....the difference between 1/8th and 1/16th..........just like between maxi and Easy Full Flex, 1/4th-1/8th.

 

For beginner's I'd divided superflex into three  rates...Easy Full Flex, Wet Noodle and long a myth, Weak Kneed Wet noodle. Marcio(sp) don't care for that, in he has had hundreds of superflex. He is a great read, and right the more superflex one has the more the differences blur.

But to the guy chasing his first superflex or first wet noodle. I think I have been of help.

 

Do buy a regular flex pen a 200 or a '82-97 400 or one of the Japanese soft nibbed pens.

Regular flex is where my system starts.....

 

 

Man is a tool making animal.....dam, I seem to be missing something here.

[Aether]

57 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Well, it may provide a reference for  prospective buyers, so they have a better idea what they are going to get.

 

That's remotely possible, but it's not going to be helpful to someone who has never tried a flexible nib because at the end of the day it's the feel of it that matters not a written description.

 

There's a reason why in the last 100 years or so there has been no guide to flexibility, no real desire for one either.  It's because it is unnecessary, particularly in light of the simple fact that users of flexible nibs (outside of calligraphy) are a vanishingly small subset of all pen users.

 

 

[Ron Z]

There's a reason why in the last 100 years or so there has been no guide to flexibility, no real desire for one either.

 

To say that any one trying to get the pen community, or the dealers/pen mechanics who work the pen show circuit to not only agree, but adhere to a "standard" of flex is facing an uphill  battle is an understatement.  ...and Ebay?  HA!   I try to be reasonably accurate in my descriptions of flex, but to measure the force needed to spread the tines a given amount to define the flex as found on a table for every pen....  isn't worth it.  A picture in the corner is usually sufficient.

 

By the way DBC, that wet noodle nib in the almost black and white photo, and the color photo has a crack or developing crack in the left tine, and the nib has a bend and a hump in it.  That will impact the perceived amount of flex, fix it, and I bet that you'll find that it changes.

 

 

[duckbillclinton]

1 hour ago, Ron Z said:

By the way DBC, that wet noodle nib in the almost black and white photo, and the color photo has a crack or developing crack in the left tine, and the nib has a bend and a hump in it.  That will impact the perceived amount of flex, fix it, and I bet that you'll find that it changes.

 

That's not a crack on the left tine, it's just ink residues from like half a century ago.  🤣🤣🤣  I never bother to clean it because I have too many vintage flex pens.  After posting the "B&W" photo, I realized someone may mistaken it as a cracked nib, so I finally cleaned it with toothbrush and toothpaste, without pulling the nib and feed out though, so the pen is only half cleaned, the color photo beneath that B&W photo is the nib after semi cleaning, shiny with no cracking.