14kt or 18kt

July 26, 2007

Bennington1967 wrote:

"All the steel nibs I've tried have been scratchy as nails."

In all fairness, I would say one must consider the age of the speaker and their experience with FP's. Even as late as the 1960's, many FP's with steel nibs were in fact quite scratchy. Working class people did not spend the equivalent of $100 on a FP, they spent $1 - and complained. I remember the adults around me constantly complaining about their pens' scratchiness and praising ball points for being consistently smooth. This perceived difference between BP's and FP's is part of what led to the popularity of BP's - at least where I was.

Many here seem to think that in "the day" there were nibmeisters in every village and hamlet. In my small town America, both Pennsylvania and Texas, there were no nibmeisters. It seemed not to dawn on people to smooth their nibs with untra fine grit sandpaper or anything else. What I saw them do was to switch to another technology - despite that the BP's seldom wrote on the first stroke any better than a cheap FP.

I don't know when the consistency in nibs began, perhaps the 1970's. But at some point FP nibs began being consistently smooth on less expensive pens. Today is the heyday of great FP's in my opinion. Now one can more or less expect that many pens will have smooth writing nibs, or nibs with modest, useful feedback. This excellence in nibs includes steel, 14k and 18k.

I suspect eytim will be satisfied with either a 14k or 18k nib. Given the choice, I would also choose the 14k nib fr its ability to be effectively modified if I wanted to do so.

Sorry to ramble.

Edited July 26, 2007 by FrankB

July 30, 2007

Hi,

The people at Nakaya do have a quite clear view on this:

Quote:

14k gold is the best material for a nib

the reasons are:

1. Highly corrosive-resistant so it doesn't rust and lasts for many years of usage.

2. The softness of 14k gold makes for flexibile writing touch.

3. Iridosmine can be attached firmly without losing its strength.

http://www.nakaya.org/epen.html#kindnib

cheers,

Luca

Most of my better pens (Omas, Pelikan, Mont Blanc) have 18kt nibs and they write nicely. I usually don't buy c/c pens and prefer piston or in vintage LF or vacs. However I am now considering ordering a Laban pen in a 14kt or 18kt nib. Whihc will give me the smoothest writing experience. I have a Souveran 1000 in a F (which is as close I believe as I will get in this pen to a true Medium line) and also a Soveran 400 with a 14kt and I prefer the 14kt 400 by far.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

July 30, 2007

This is a contaversial topic, to say the least!!!

I am a firm believer in using gold nibs over steel nibs but that is an entirely different topic that is as equally as contraversial as the 14kt vs 18kt gold nibs!!!

TO say one is more springy as the other is really something that cannot be generalized. It all depends on the nib, design, manufacturer and personal opinion. Ok, for example, I have a Waterman Edson that has an 18kt gold factory stub and it is as stiff as a nail. OTOH, I have a 14kt gold nib on my older Montblanc meisterstuck 149 and it has a lot of spring to it. So it is very difficult if not impossible to judge flex and springiness based on gold content alone!!!

To make matters more confusing, I have two 14kt gold nibs on 2 of my montblanc 149 pens. I have used my Dads later model Monblanc 149 with an 18kt gold nib along with owning a Montblanc Alexandre Dumas writers edition pen with an 18kt gold medium nib. The 2 MB with the 18kt gold nibs are much more stiff than the 14kt gold MB pens. In fact it is night and day in comparison, the 14 kt gold has a lot of spring to it. Another comparison are some of my Sailor pens such as my KoP, 1911, Zoom, Togi Emperor and Music nibs, they all are 21kt gold. One would think that because they are 21kt gold and softer than 18 or 14kt gold nibs, they would be totally springy or flexi. Man, that is not the case at all!!! I have a 14 kt gold visconti nib that has some really unbelievable flex to it and it makes the 21kt gold nibs seem like nails. The 21kt gold Zoom, Music and Togi Emperor nibs are thicker, in fact much thicker than the Visconti 14kt gold nib, IMO that makes a huge difference.

So you really have to look at it on a nib by nib basis and not judge a nib by gold content alone because that can be very deceiving. I have a Laban Mento with an 18kt gold nib and I found it to be not as flexible and springy as I thought it would be. My Dad has a Laban Mento with a 14kt gold nib and I find it to be more springy in comparison. If I would have known that before I bought the pen, I would have opted for the 14kt instead of the 18kt gold nib. Plus the 14kt gold was cheaper in comparison!!!

So before making your decision of your nibs, make sure you do a bit of research and ask people who have the pen in different nibs/gold content. I really hope this helps you and points you in the correct direction. Nibs are like people, each one has its own personality and never assume and judge by gold content alone!! Sit down and get to know each pen, because you might be quite surprised by your findings!!! If you have any questions, please ask!

Best of Luck,

TNS

Edited July 30, 2007 by The Noble Savage

July 30, 2007

Purely up to the writing person, IMHO...

I got gold nibs that are more like 50 grit sandpaper
I got steel nibs that are smooth as the skin an 20 y.o co-ed non-virgin's inner thigh (personal experience at UC in the 1960's--don't ask)
I got gold nibs so smooth that you want to cry when using them
I got steel nibs that are so rough they would make good torture implements for gettin' TallyBands to talk.

There is NO CORRELATION...again IMHO...between 18K or 14K or steel...and smoothness. But then, I only have about ten years and 300 or so pens as samples...

Bill

July 30, 2007

14kt gold should be harder-wearing - and possible longer-lasting overall, depending on what the pen's used for (filling drawings probably puts more wear on the nib than average writing, for example).

18kt gold, on the other hand, may be liked by some folks just for the higher content.

As far as gold vs. steel... I like gold because it's pretty. If I get a pen with a fully gold nib (mine's just plated), I'd be happy with 18, 14, or even 10.

Edited July 30, 2007 by fenrisfox

July 30, 2007

Wouldn't the exact composition of the alloy - whether steel-bearing or gold-bearing - affect the give of a particular nib? I'd think that it - combined with how the nib pairs with its feed - would be far more important than the amount of gold in the nib (or steel vs. gold).

July 31, 2007

Hi,
The people at Nakaya do have a quite clear view on this:

Quote:
14k gold is the best material for a nib
the reasons are:
1. Highly corrosive-resistant so it doesn't rust and lasts for many years of usage.
2. The softness of 14k gold makes for flexibile writing touch.
3. Iridosmine can be attached firmly without losing its strength.

Indeed, their view on this matter is quite clear, but it is a very simplified one. When they tell their customers that 14K is best, they don't tell them what other materials they use for making the nib. It is likely pen manufactuers never will because it is considered a company secret. Also: not everyone likes flex nibs (as they assume with this statement). And when did you see a corroding stainless steel nib? With modern pens that pure a matter of theory and never happens in real life. But in theory stainless steel nibs are superior in terms of strength, costs and durability when the writer doesn't want a flex nib. High end manufactuers don't like this fact of course. The reason for this? A nib weighs about 2-4 grams and the amount of gold is in the case of an average 14K nib worth about $ 30,-, but a new (replacement) Nakaya 14K nib will cost however between $125-$225. A good quality nib of stainless steel for a modern pen cost about $ 3,- $ 5,- to produce. These steel nibs are mostly of higher and more constant quality because they are machine made. Buying a pen with a 14K/18K gold nib is in my opinion just a waste of money. But if the choice is between a 14K or an 18K: choose the cheapest or the one that's made with the most precision.

July 31, 2007

Buying a pen with a 14K/18K gold nib is in my opinion just a waste of money.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't think you can have thought that through.

July 31, 2007

I dont know what theory you are talking about but just because something is satinless steel doesnt mean it will never stain!!! I have seen numerous stainless steel nibs corrode, along with trim rings and what not. Steel nibs are cheaper to make and some prefer steel nibs. I however do not!! If I am going to spend money on a pen that I want to last, chances are I am going to buy one with a gold nib. As far as I am concerned, 14, 18, 21kt gold is irrevelant. Some say that 21kt is 2 times as flexible as 14 kt gold. That is so far from the truth!! I have seen and use plenty of 14kt gold nibs that are more flexible than an 18 or 21 kt gold nibs and my experience with 14kt gold nibs has been more impressive than that of higher gold content nibs. Now, that is not always the case because there are some 18kt nibs that have out performed the 14kt. In my experience, 14kt seems to give me the best results out of all the gold nibs, due to my writing style.

Getting back to the point, if the steel nibs are higher in quality, why dont they write as nice as some of the gold nibbed counterparts? I believe a lot of the actual smoothness of a nib is the tipping material. Lets face it, tipping material is the only thing that is touching the paper when you write. Now with consistancy, I am sure the cheaper steel nibs are consistant but to say they are superior is really not accurate at all. Gold nibs have advantadges over the Stainless steel nibs, it all depends on what you want when it comes to flex, siffness, spring, corrosion protection and overall aesthetics. To say it is a waste of money to buy gold over steel is just plain silly. Not all gold nibs are better than steel, thats for sure, but to say buying gold is a waste of money is equally as absurd. I will be honest and say that there are only a few steel nibs out there that I have either used or own that rival the feel of gold nibs. Lamy seems to be at the top of the list for me. I dont know who makes the steel nibs for Filcao but they are extremely smooth and write very nice.

I have quite a lorge collection of pens and I have plenty of time behind gold, steel, glass and titanium nibs. I have to say that NOTHING beats the feel of a GOOD gold nib. There are plenty of gold nibs out there that are not worth jack OTOH, the same goes for steel too. Gold nibs have a feel of their own that no other metal IMHO can match. So may like the feel, others may not, I happen to love the feel. TO generalize gold nibs and say that it is not worth the money, that is a careless statement. Buy what you like and what you feel is best for you, IMO.

TNS

Indeed, their view on this matter is quite clear, but it is a very simplified one. When they tell their customers that 14K is best, they don't tell them what other materials they use for making the nib. It is likely pen manufactuers never will because it is considered a company secret. Also: not everyone likes flex nibs (as they assume with this statement). And when did you see a corroding stainless steel nib? With modern pens that pure a matter of theory and never happens in real life. But in theory stainless steel nibs are superior in terms of strength, costs and durability when the writer doesn't want a flex nib. High end manufactuers don't like this fact of course. The reason for this? A nib weighs about 2-4 grams and the amount of gold is in the case of an average 14K nib worth about $ 30,-, but a new (replacement) Nakaya 14K nib will cost however between $125-$225. A good quality nib of stainless steel for a modern pen cost about $ 3,- $ 5,- to produce. These steel nibs are mostly of higher and more constant quality because they are machine made. Buying a pen with a 14K/18K gold nib is in my opinion just a waste of money. But if the choice is between a 14K or an 18K: choose the cheapest or the one that's made with the most precision.

August 1, 2007

There is NO CORRELATION...again IMHO...between 18K or 14K or steel...and smoothness. But then, I only have about ten years and 300 or so pens as samples...

I agree, there really is no correlation. There is one if it comes to cost and durability. The higher the gold content in the nib, the higher the wear. The price is higher too of course.

If I am going to spend money on a pen that I want to last, chances are I am going to buy one with a gold nib.

Gold nibs are less durable compared with stainless steel nibs.

Not all gold nibs are better than steel, thats for sure, but to say buying gold is a waste of money is equally as absurd

Is a gold nib, about 30x-60x more expensive than a steel nib, less durable than a steel nib (because gold nibs are) and that doesn't write better than a steel nib worth the money? Don't think so.

August 1, 2007

Is a gold nib, about 30x-60x more expensive than a steel nib, less durable than a steel nib (because gold nibs are) and that doesn't write better than a steel nib worth the money? Don't think so.

Is a gold nib 30-60 times more expensive than a steel nib to buy retail? Looking at Richard Binder's prices for standard Pelikan nibs:

M215 unplated steel - $25

M250 14-ct gold - $65

Maths isn't my strong suit, but that looks like less than 2 1/2 times to me.

Nor is relative durability the overriding issue, in my view. What's more important is that gold nibs are sufficiently durable for the purpose. They have other qualities which many people may think more than compensate for any supposed lack of durability. Anyway, were Sheaffer's Triumph nibs not sufficiently durable? No better than a cheap steel nib? You decide, readers.

I would dispute that gold nibs don't write better than steel nibs; that might not be automatically the case, but nevertheless they very often do. What's more to the point though, is that many fine pens, both vintage and modern, are simply not available with anything other than gold nibs. Is a Parker 51, a Pelikan M800, or a Vanishing Point therefore 'just a waste of money'? Don't think so.

August 1, 2007

There is NO CORRELATION...again IMHO...between 18K or 14K or steel...and smoothness. But then, I only have about ten years and 300 or so pens as samples...

I agree, there really is no correlation. There is one if it comes to cost and durability. The higher the gold content in the nib, the higher the wear. The price is higher too of course.

If I am going to spend money on a pen that I want to last, chances are I am going to buy one with a gold nib.

Gold nibs are less durable compared with stainless steel nibs.

Not all gold nibs are better than steel, thats for sure, but to say buying gold is a waste of money is equally as absurd

Is a gold nib, about 30x-60x more expensive than a steel nib, less durable than a steel nib (because gold nibs are) and that doesn't write better than a steel nib worth the money? Don't think so.

Steel WILL CORRODE OVER TIME!!!! So to say that steel is more durable than gold is so far from the truth it isnt even funny!!!

Also, your statement of the higher the gold content the more the wear is also flawed!!! Remember, gold is NOT touching the paper when you write, it is the tipping material!!! Also gold will last the test of time and will not corrode like steel!!!!

Now if you are writing with maximum pressure on a nib, yes, it will fail but then again that is the users fault, not the fault of the gold its self.

TNS

August 1, 2007

Steel WILL CORRODE OVER TIME!!!! So to say that steel is more durable than gold is so far from the truth it isnt even funny!!!

With 'steel' is meant stainless steel (see the context of my post). And corroding stainless steel in modern pens is something that only can happen in theory but almost never happens in real life. The difference in corrosion resistance between most sorts of stainless steel and gold nib is very small.

Also, your statement of the higher the gold content the more the wear is also flawed!!! Remember, gold is NOT touching the paper when you write, it is the tipping material!!! Also gold will last the test of time and will not corrode like steel!!!!

Never stated that the tipping material was the problem. The average 14K nib will last about 60 kilometres of writing and an average stainless steel nib can last about 200 kilometres. The reason for this difference is not the tipping material (hard alloy), but the fact that the fatigue limit and the strength of stainless steel is higher than 14K nibs (and much higher than 18K nibs). So it has more to do with the rest of the nib. The only alternative for stainless steel nibs are titanium nibs. Compared with stainless steel, the fatigue limits of titamium nib are higher but it's strength is lower. Titanium is compared with stainless steel very expensive and difficult to form. Gold nibs are only the best option for flexible nibs. Flex nibs are only a small part of the market.

Now if you are writing with maximum pressure on a nib, yes, it will fail but then again that is the users fault, not the fault of the gold its self.

Writing with too much pressure on a nib is indeed the users fault. The results of this kind of abuse are, when comparing stainless steel nibs and gold nibs, however not the same. Ever wondered why pens like the Pelikano, Lamy ABC or Schneider Base Kid are fitted with nibs of stainless steel? (production costs are not the only reason)

Edited August 1, 2007 by mr T.

August 1, 2007

Never stated that the tipping material was the problem. The average 14K nib will last about 60 kilometres of writing and an average stainless steel nib can last about 200 kilometres.

Interesting statement. Can you provide a reference? It does make sense from a metal fatigue point of view, but then I'm not a materials engineer.

I wonder whether steel nibs on modern pens will experience corrosion if you stick to inks with near neutral pH?

My personal preference from the kind of tactile feedback I get is gold, and I like 14k because it can be made flexible more readily. Can flexible nibs be made of steel, by the way?

Stephen

Edited August 1, 2007 by Stephen-I-am

August 1, 2007

Can flexible nibs be made of steel, by the way?

Stephen

Look at what Caliken and Antonioz can do with there steel nibbed dip pens. In fact, the best flexers are steel dip nibs. So, why wouldn't such a flexy nib material work on a FP?

I wonder if people that live in extremely humid regions would experience corrosion of their steel nibs even if they used pH neutral ink.

August 1, 2007

Can you provide a reference? It does make sense from a metal fatigue point of view, but then I'm not a materials engineer.

An interesting article about this matter can be found at the Pentrace website (article 418). or this link. This article is about the question what the ideal material is for flex nibs (the answer: 14K nibs). More interesting is however the scheme with technical data. (and Nakaya claims their 14/18K nibs last 60-75 km, see this link, the rest can be calculated)

I wonder whether steel nibs on modern pens will experience corrosion if you stick to inks with near neutral pH?

In my experience there are really no problems as long as one uses inks of major ink brands. There are indeed some differences in ph between different inks (that's why some pen users don't want to use a particular type of ink), but most modern inks will not corrode a modern pen with a stainless steel nib. For more information about acidity, alkaline level and fountain pens maybe this could be an interesting article.

My personal preference from the kind of tactile feedback I get is gold, and I like 14k because it can be made flexible more readily. Can flexible nibs be made of steel, by the way?

In theory this can be done by making the material very thin. However, flexible gold nibs are easier to produce. But a lot depends on the exact composition of the material used for nib making.

August 1, 2007

Hmm corrosion resistance between steel and gold is minor? Im sorry, I just dont buy it!!!

With 'steel' is meant stainless steel (see the context of my post). And corroding stainless steel in modern pens is something that only can happen in theory but almost never happens in real life. The difference in corrosion resistance between most sorts of stainless steel and gold nib is very small.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!! I have seen this several times with several pens along with trim rings. To say this almost never happens in real life is an outright untrue statement. I have seen my fair share of corrosion on steel nibs and trim rings. It may not happen with every steel nib but it happens more times than your would think or you would want to believe!!!

Also,

To estimate how long tipping will last on a pen based on Kilometers of writing is not only misleading but totally unreliable!!! YOu have to take into acount the ink used, paper, weight of hand on the nib, thickness of the tipping material and tipping material make up. Those are only a few factors!! Why is it that nibs from the 1920's are still quite useable? Thats 80+ years!!! Big difference between the 10 years if used to the maximum extent as stated on the Nakaya website.

Getting back on the topic you said

Gold nibs are only the best option for flexible nibs. Flex nibs are only a small part of the market.

How about springy and soft nibs? Gold owns the market on that too. A lot of people do not want to write with stiff nibs, gold is more springy and adds a softer touch while writing. Not all Gold nibs but a lot of them that I used are much softer than steel could ever be!! If people want to write with something super stiff, then either go with a Waterman Edson or better yet, a nail from the back yard!!

I still dont understand your point when you said gold is a waste of money over steel. If steel nibs are so much superior to gold then why are the premium manufactures of fountian pens using gold rather than steel? Dont tell me it is only because of money!!! I dont want to hear any conspiracy theories either!!! Gold is a precious metal that has been used for thousands of years due to its durability. Gold is one of the best metals to use for fountain pen nibs, period!!!!

TNS

Edited August 1, 2007 by The Noble Savage