M800 nib flexibility

[OMASsimo]

14 hours ago, JulieParadise said:

 

As with so many things, you cannot generalize. The only thing I have found out regarding nibs in relation to their material is: "The softer the nib ... the softer the nib." Irrespective of the gold content = material. There are fantastic soft steel nibs, there are amazingly soft 14 k gold nibs, 18 k also, but as long as these are not of the same shape and made by the same manufacturer in the same era ... one just cannot predict or compare.

 

Sailor KOP nibs are definitely softer/bouncier than the smaller nibs made of 14 k gold, but these also have a totally different shape.

 

My softest nibs so far have been vintage Kaweco (Dia 785) and Degussa steel nibs.

 

I had a handful of Pelikan M3x0 pens with 14 k nibs, but the 18 k nib of my M350 is a lot softer. 

 

Etc.

 

Just to avoid confusion, the property of the material itself I mentioned above is flexibility. In connection with pen nibs, we usually talk about soft or springy nibs on the one hand and flex nibs on the other hand, which is not the same. Both requires some flexibility of the nib material. But the special geometry of flex nibs (in all their degrees) aims for line variation, which nibs that are just soft/springy usually don’t provide. This also means that the required flexibility of the nib material is quite different. It seems much easier to make a soft/springy 18k nib, of which I have quite a few, than to make a flex 18k nib (I think my 1933 Bayard has the only one in my collection).

 

Most vintage Kaweco nibs show wonderful flex properties. The Dia 785 seems to be the cheaper sibling of the 85, featuring a steel nib instead of a 14k gold nib. But I love both for their nice flex properties. Same with the Degussa nibs of that era. And you might notice that non of them are 18k, which was the point I tried to make above.

[Bo Bo Olson]

This is only what I read....the 21 k Sailor nib is soft.....many call it mushy.

If one don't know the difference. one could be satisfied with a lesser nib, no matter how high the gold content.

 

Nail is a nail no mater what gold content it has. I have a Pelikan 14K  D nib, a Parker  '36 Factory stub BB, , a Lamy Person 18K, MB Nobliese 18 K, and a Cd'A 18K. These two were in a live auction lot with all the other pens having a regular flex 18 K nib. 

Right now am using the briar Diplomat, the first pen of the lot.  It like the two Pelikans, (Hunter and W.Germany 800) the Waterman Mann 200 and the 149 all have nice regular flex 18K nibs.

 

 

 

In I have gold nails...I tend to believe (no facts of course) that many who believe in the gold soft myth, compare a steel nail with a gold semi-nail....like a P-75's semi-nail nib, to get the soft, they believe they should have.

 

 

A nail is a nail, be it 18K, 14K, or steel. I've not run into any 'soft' nails. Nail = no tine spread or bend.

If the tines spread up to 2X and bend ever so slightly when well mashed, it is semi-nail. Not 'soft'.

[wtlh]

I do not quite understand what people mean by "soft". 

 

Proper flex nibs spread the tines as you apply pressure, which allows for the line variations. If the nib doesn't do that, and only bends the tines together, then there won't be any noticeable line variation.

 

Amongst the modern (normal) nibs, for example, I would say Pilot Custom 74 nibs do behave very similarly to a hard flexible nib (i.e. the tines won't separate a lot), or semi-flex.

 

Do people mean semi-flex when they refer to "soft"?  

[wtlh]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:58 AM, Christopher Godfrey said:

@wtlh: <You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds>

 

I should be very surprised if anyone would add flex to an 18kt nib!  Richard Binder told us, categorically, that he would only do this to 14kt nibs.

 

I do remember Richard saying 14k is the best material.  

 

Can M800 use M600 nibs? I thought the diameters are the same, only the frontal part is longer?

 

I hate the fact that to comply with French laws they had to make the new nibs 18k...

[carlos.q]

2 hours ago, wtlh said:

Can M800 use M600 nibs? I thought the diameters are the same, only the frontal part is longer?

Nope. M800 pens can only use M800/805 nibs. However M600 pens can use M400, 400, 400NN, M200/205 nibs.

 

Check out this page: http://www.indy-pen-dance.com/Pelikan-Interchangeability-Chart.html

[stric75]

1 hour ago, carlos.q said:

Nope. M800 pens can only use M800/805 nibs. However M600 pens can use M400, 400, 400NN, M200/205 nibs.

 

Check out this page: http://www.indy-pen-dance.com/Pelikan-Interchangeability-Chart.html

Thanks for sharing. I was under impression that they were interchangeable  between all models. 

[stric75]

4 hours ago, wtlh said:

Can M800 use M600 nibs? I thought the diameters are the same, only the frontal part is longer?

Quite frankly, I think that M800 nibs are quite beautiful in terms of their shape that I’d have hard time replacing them with M600 (or smaller) nibs. But that’s only me. 

[stric75]

4 hours ago, wtlh said:

I do not quite understand what people mean by "soft".

Me neither, yet I find myself using that term😉

[Bo Bo Olson]

It depends on what flex rate you like or want....IMO.

 

I like the semi-flex of the vintage pens of the '50-65 era and I like the nice springy regular flex nibs of the '82-97 era.

 

I refused to buy a nail 800, made the mistake as a noobie of buying the 605 semi-nail....didn't buy any semi-nail 400's either. There were a slew of semi-flex and nice springy regular flex 400's to be had.

 

Well even used the 800 is/was expensive, and I couldn't tell which was the '97-91 springy regular flex nibs. I don't like nails, which the post '97 800 is. I did not want to end up with a nail 800!!!!

 

I had trans-mailed ...because the seller refused to mail outside of Germany, a W.Germany 800 to Spain.....took me some 13 year of Not Hunting to luck into the very nice springy W. Germany 800's nib. (Don't like the size all that much either....but that has nothing to do with the nibs.)

 

A 120-140-200 will fit a 400, a 600 will be tight. All will fit a 600. I often said back before the 200 finely got ruined by the new double ball nib, that one could improve a 600 by putting a nice springy and 'cheap' 200's nib on a 600. Perhaps you could hunt for a classic 200 with a tear drop tipping, gold plated or pure steel, and use that nib to improve the big 600.

 

Said the same thing about the semi-nail 400!

But did say one could go semi-vintage or vintage and get a nib worth while and not waste money on a new semi-nail 400 as was.

 

It will look a bit dorky like putting a 140 on a 400, but it is if one wants a nice soft ride a better nib............and no one else will know but you in the fountain pen ignorant word..............any that might know, would support a superior nib instead of substandard two toned gold nib.

The 600 did not look dorky with a grand little semi-flex monotone '50's 400 nib.

.........

I had my semi-nail 600 BB stubbed to 1.0/B, at least the line is clean now.

 

Yes, having a big honking magnifying glass and being OCD about woolly lines; don't care for fat and blobby double ball Pelikan nibs which IMO do not have a clean like of the semi-vintage and until 4-5 years ago 200's tear drop tipped  or stubbed nibs of the vintage era of '50-65..

 

An 800 is it's own size as is the 1000.

 

 

[OMASsimo]

7 hours ago, wtlh said:

I do not quite understand what people mean by "soft". 

 

Proper flex nibs spread the tines as you apply pressure, which allows for the line variations. If the nib doesn't do that, and only bends the tines together, then there won't be any noticeable line variation.

 

Amongst the modern (normal) nibs, for example, I would say Pilot Custom 74 nibs do behave very similarly to a hard flexible nib (i.e. the tines won't separate a lot), or semi-flex.

 

Do people mean semi-flex when they refer to "soft"?  

 

I think there is no real consistency in the terminology and different people might refer to different things when talking about flex or soft nibs. I think most people, me included, would use the term flex for a nib that provides line variation depending on pressure. Like you said, a proper flex nib spreads the tines under pressure. But there are also nibs with noticeable flexibility, which do not or hardly spread the tines. I would refer to those as soft or springy to distinguish them from flex nibs. The ease and degree of spreading could be indicated like @Bo Bo Olson suggests, but no need to overdo it.

[tacitus]

FOUNTAIN PEN DESIGN is proposing the classification of nibs based on writing pressure and tine separation. It is a very informative site, and worth visiting.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I started my 1/2 system long before I got an electronic scale....and others have tried the electronic scale to measuring flex....didn't seem to go anywhere.

 

Mine didn't go anywhere either....not enough folks knew what a regular flex nib was/similar to a Japanese soft. If you don't have that flex rate, my system don't work.

 

If you are one of the rare ones with a regular flex nib....like some Esterbrooks, Wearever, Crest & perhaps some Sheaffers, the '82-97 Pelikans and the 200's; then my system of 1/2's works easy enough.

Of course it's subjunctive. And a hell of a lot faster than trying to divide things out with an electronic scale and over stressing nibs to see how wide you can measure them.

 

 

When talking about flex rates, I leave out 1X nails....no tine spread, P-51 & modern 800 and a lot of other pens. GvFC.

 

2 X well mashed semi-nails.....out side the 2 X Lamy Imporium nib, which if the nib went out to 3 X I'd have, that is the softest 2 X tine spread nib I've run into. I use the P-75 and the modern 400.600 as semi-nail as examples.

 

First one should read Richard Binder's fine article on metal fatigue. I strive to stay one X under max. I have a Pelikan 100n 5 X Easy Full Flex nibbed pen. I strive not to go over 4X tine spread, in I don't want metal fatigue springing my nib.

If one works one's way up the flex ladder, one learns how wide a nib spreads without over stressing, but most jump into the deep end of the pool with out their water wings. Whoops...

 

I place a limit of 3 X on these three flex rates, in after 3 X it's easy to spring a nib and they are not super flex.....it helps for one to own at least one dip pen nib in the middle of the dip pen flexes, to know what super flex is....ie less than your dip pen.

 

A regular flex nib can be mashed out to 3 X  a light down line.

One can not write so mashed.

 

Semi-flex takes half that pressure to go out to 3X. Luckily semi-flex is sturdy. One can write out to 3 X.

As a heavy handed 'noobie' It took me weeks to get under maxing my Pelikan 140 OB from 3X, and perhaps two months all in all before I got down to 1 X and having line variation of out to 2 X from regular heavy letter parts, with an occasional attempt at fancy out to 3 X. (I remained there....have a medium Hand, not heavy and not light.)

I have @ 34 semi-flex pens.

 

Maxi-semi-flex. Takes half the pressure of a semi-flex to reach 3X, or 1/4th needed to mash a regular flex to 3 X.

I will admit to having invented the term, in I ran into a Rupp nib that was ever so flexi, with a 3 X limit. For three days I walked around in a daze of small circles muttering, that certainly is a rather maxi-semi-flex.

I then checked my nibs..................living in Germany I had a lot of semi-flex, and of the 20, five were maxi's.

I now have 14 of them.

 

@ 15 years ago, flexi was the word....none understood, even a P-75 was considered flexi, in the tines moved out to 2 X and they bent.

Eventually superflex came in and flexi died......almost.

Superflex is 4, 5-6 the most often tine spread and the rare 7X.

 

7X is really rare unless you looks at someone over stressing a nib on Youtube or showing you how their over stressed nib (sprung? nib....Binder's article) can actually still do Olympic splits. I'd not buy any of those.

 

Those who can write...not me, are more interested in fast snapback rather than how wide can the nib be split. The want the thin like accented by some wide, not fat enough to go on a diet letters.

 

Mauricio sells superflexed pens and his blog on that is great. I do have two 52's wet noodles pens one a 6X the other is a two stage 7 X, from him.

He disagrees with my simplistic for noobies system. In the more superflex nibs you have the more the borders of my system blur.

 

He's right, but not everyone has 6-7 Easy full Flex, 3 Wet Noodles and 1 Weak Kneed Wet Noodle. A term invented by the English nib grinder John Swobota(sp).

I think my system works well for noobies getting into superflex. It did for me.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Superflex nib flex rates.

Easy Full Flex, needs half the pressure of maxi, or 1/8th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex. You can make a nice fun Easy Full Flex nib by doing the Ahab/Pilot half moon nib grind on a very heavy semi-flex Ahab nib. I have one of them and it went from being a pain to being fun.

I have 6-7 of these Easy Full Flex nibbed pens.

 

Wet Noodle, half the pressure needed to max a Easy Full Flex, or 1/16th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex out to 3 X. I have three, my best is a Soennecken 7 X wet noodle. These nibs are in the lower 4th level of flexi dip pen nibs.

 

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.....*** I've not made up my mind if my pre'24 MB Safety pen's Simplo #6 nib is half or less than my Wet Noodle...1/32nd or 1/64th the prsesure needed to mash a regular flex. .

It is in the middle of the dip pen flex rates..............my easiest to flex dip pen nibs are the Hunt 99-100-&101. Those nibs flex when there is an earthquake in California.....remembering I live in Germany.

 

 

If you put your mind to it, you could fake my system starting with a nice stubbed semi-flex German '50-65 era pnen (easiest place to find semi-flex)....................but why not buy a good second hand regular flex 200?

Regular flex is a very nice comfortable ride............I use to be a semi-flex snob, but have come to like regular flex nibs quite a lot.

I had went wide as a nooble, many go narrow. I have both, but now I like a M.

 

 

*** I did not go hunting for the Weak Kneed Wet Noodle, my wife stumbles on to it...for free...while talking to a guy in a street flea market. I was never going to chase one of them, in I'd have to learn to write................. Still haven't started.

[georges zaslavsky]

Pre 1997 nibs onthe m800s were quite flexible , the post 1997s M800 nibs not so much. I own two pre 1997 m800 , one medium and one fine

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 9/2/2022 at 8:01 AM, georges zaslavsky said:

Pre 1997 nibs on the m800s were quite flexible

I respect Georges, but here we have that what is soft, what is flexible question.

 

In I chased semi-flex 35 and maxi-semi-flex for a while 15....and didn't get around to counting my what I call regular flex, (20-30?)  in that was what I got as a kid in Black & White TV days, on my Esterbrook, Wearevers or even Venus pens, as regular issue/regular flex. Had some Esterbrooks, and Wearevers, most I unfortunately got rid of. Some of the pre and post WW2 Wearevers were as good as Esterbrooks. Still have a couple Esterbrooks and the turquoise '70's Wearever and the camouflage green  '30's MP/FP.

 

I have some W. Germany Pelikans (82-90/91), a small 600, a 800, and two 200's. They are a very slight tad more springy than a '91-97 era. One needs both to feel any difference. I have a Germany 400 & a 381 and a steel and a gold Celebry and a 200 from the pre '98 era.

I don't call them quite flexible unless one is comparing them a nail 800 or a post '98 semi-nail 400/600. I call them springy, with some flex (out to 3 X tine spread when well mashed over a light down stroke) .....ie regular flex.

 

Nails and semi-nails not soft.

 

The way I see it. These are a 3 X tine spread set of three flex rates.  (That one can over stress these nibs can be done out to 4 X, but if one worked ones way up the flex ladder, one can feel when a nib is pushed too far.)

Regular flex = soft +...................from my reading, Japanese soft is near this, perhaps not quite as springy. A nice comfortable ride. One of course can not write with the nib pushed out to 3 X.

 

Semi-flex = soft ++. One can write with a semi-flex pressed often to 3X and mostly at 2 X, due to being heavy handed ...........took me 6 weeks to 3 months to get a lighter Hand so I could "demand" line variation" rather than having a big fat wet line all the time.

 

Maxi-semi-flex = soft +++.  It takes having a semi and a maxi to know it's a maxi. My second 'semi-flex' a 400nn was actually a maxi. I ran into a Rupp nib that was and still is my easiest to flex maxi, and did a test as a 20 pen noobie, mostly semi-flex and found 5 maxi's...............now I see it as @ 1 in 5 as a maxi, with in the normal German semi-flex rated pens.

I'm not sure where Pilots with the half moon ground out nib sections fit....at semi or maxi.  I'll let someone with semi&maxi and Pilot Mod pens define the Pilot Mod.

 

[Gaeleus]

Sorry for late response to the party.  I have an M800 with a broad nib. Not flexible at all.  Lovely nib by the way.  I just switched it to an IB nib for more line variation and a broader stroke.  It displays ink characteristics much better.  I also own an M1000 and that pen displays a little more flexibility.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I just found out my 1005 was actually a 805, and it being OBB is a semi-nail, not a nail.......but I've heard for a long time many have 800 nails..................I had thought my 1005 was 'regular flex, but being a  Huge pen (won at a live auction with a small 600(a 400 sized pen...so there is a big difference between a standard sized pen and a large one.)   and OBB only used it once.....now I found out it is not regular flex....in I was looking for it....but a semi-nail.......which is better for me than a nail. (right now I'm using my semi-nail P-75 and enjoying it....but that is a great balanced pen.

 

I also have a W.Germany 800 with it's tad more springy than Germany 91-97 nibs.........have two 200's (but only one can be used in the other is part of a NOS set) and a small 600 that are W.Germany with a small bit more springy nib.

One has to have a '91-97 and the West Germany nib to feel any difference.

 

 

[Lam1]

I have more M800's than I should and, in my experience, the 18K nibs are nails. The pre-1997 ones are nails with character, but still nails.

However, the two 14k nibs that I have I would characterize as, at least, semi-flex (although I'm being conservative). The OB in the picture has been grounded to a medium CI and it gives me great line variation with little pressure (and so does the BB) - and that is well beyond what a CI would give. Both the 14k nibs also have great snap back.

 

I have seen many people praise the MB 149 flexible. Although that is, indeed, a great nib, it pales in comparison with the two M800 14K nibs that I have.

 

Since many people mentioned the possibility of putting other nibs in the MN800s, I suggest a Waterman 100y nib: it is the perfect match for the M800 feed, no adjustments necessary (I have one). If one uses a wet ink the M800 feed keeps up pretty well too.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 8/26/2022 at 11:46 PM, OMASsimo said:

I would refer to those as soft or springy to distinguish them from flex nibs.

I see the problem as not enough folks has a regular issue nib.***

 

I could see that..regular flex as springy....200 Pelikan, the '82-97, 400/(late 80's)600/800, soft +,'50-65 Pelikan or other German brands to say 1970, soft ++...=semi=flex, maxi=semi flex  soft +++.

 

Super flex is a much better term to use than 'flex.............when i cam on the com everything was flex or flexi....from regular flex to a wet noodle...the tines spread and bent a bit....so must be a flex nib to a nail user.

Burnt steak..... shoe-leather (nail), medium (regular flex), medium rare (semi-flex), and rare (superflex or FLEXII) if one don't want to know one has an A or an E.,

 

But as far as I can tell most US pen owners do not have any regular flex/Pilot soft nibs....Some Sheafer & it's sub-brand Crest and some Esterbrook nibs were regular flex....

I was chasing after a early '50's semi-flex Snorkel, but got a maxi-semi=flex stubbed BB Snorkel from Australia, where Snorkel had to chase Swan with it's many flex rates...so don't count Stateside.  

Wearever is a good regular flex nib....all mine were so. Geha school piston pen, or the Pelikan 120 are good regular flex nibs...............as a school kid who just missed the pretty Esterbrooks, and got the plain body, metal top....was no big difference IMO in looks or nib with the slightly cheaper Wearever. Every year I ran into a pen collector, who got my jotter also.

 

(My generation earlier  pre&post war top of line Wearever  pens were = to Esterbrook.)

 

Regular flex----so many plastic school kid or workers pens were issued a nice springy nib as regular issue.....therefor regular flex.

 

Go get a second hand Pelikan 200, the old teardrop...pre 2019. The 200 nib is a grand springy nib.

It is my understanding the Pilot soft nib is close but not quite as good, being a tad mushy.....from my reading. I have no Japanese pens.

It is better a slightly mushy springy Pilot nib than none....if a used 200 is out of reach.

 

Once you have a regular flex, or Pilot soft nib then you can get with the program. ..Soft won't be so strange when reading about it.

 

 

[SashK]

New modern M800s are triple-0 nails. As in triple-zero flex. Yes, you can push it and open it up, but everything in your experience of pens is telling you that it should probably be the first and last time you do that. 

[roshpens]

With time and experience what I found is M800 nibs with EN and PF  have a little bounce. This is definitely noticeable in my small sample size. The modern nibs are much stiffer. Between EN and PF I felt EN may win a little bit( splitting hairs here). This perfectly echoes the finding that the 1980's nib are a little bouncier mentioned previously(EN circa 1980s predates PF circa 1990s).