M800 nib flexibility

[stric75]

On 5/14/2022 at 1:51 AM, carola said:

Nevertheless I do like the modern nibs, too. But if I had to choose, my heart clearly says: Go for the vintage B nibs!

If my memory serves me well a vintage B nib can be installed (screwed) on the modern Barrels. Perhaps, that'd what I should be looking for. A vintage nib.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

43 minutes ago, stric75 said:

If my memory serves me well a vintage B nib can be installed (screwed) on the modern Barrels. Perhaps, that'd what I should be looking for. A vintage nib.

A custom ground may be a cheaper option, then finding a vintage nib. Although you may got the flex of vintage nibs, if one cares for flex. 

 

My personal favorite vintage Pelikan nibs are the obliques. 

 

I had Mr. Masuyama ground a few modern Pelikan nibs for me, and I prefer them to vintage nibs I own.

[carola]

7 hours ago, stric75 said:

If my memory serves me well a vintage B nib can be installed (screwed) on the modern Barrels. Perhaps, that'd what I should be looking for. A vintage nib.

 

You can screw vintage nib units from the 400/400N/400NN series into the modern M400s and M200s. (The original 400 series from the 1950s/1960s, mind you, the later Merz & Krell 400 series has different units.) I wouldn´t know of any vintage nib unit that fits the M800 series though.

 

I don´t know if you could install a vintage 400 nib with a modern M800 feed, but even if that worked out, the nib would look really small on the big M800. 🤷‍♀️ If you want vintage nibs, you would probably have to consider grading down sizewise to the M400 series.

[amberleadavis]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:23 PM, SpecTP said:

the only flexible nibs that I've encountered are the 400nn. I have 2 can flex from Fine to B. All the other Pelikan's 100,200,400,800's are all springy, but not flex.

 

800

 

200

 

400nn

 

Nice photos.

[amberleadavis]

Has @Bo Bo Olson weighed in?

[TheDutchGuy]

On 5/22/2022 at 1:54 AM, TitoThePencilPimp said:

My personal favorite vintage Pelikan nibs are the obliques. 

 

+1. But pretty much every vintage Pelikan nib I’ve tried has been great. I’m fortunate to own two P140s, one with F semi-flex and one with a very soft OB. That OB is stunning. 

 

Whether stiff or not, modern Pelikan are still very good pens IMHO. One could do a lot worse than ending up with an M800. I have one that was reground into a mini stub and it’s one heck of a pen.

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:17 AM, OMASsimo said:

I have in my Pelikan collection at older M800 with a B nib (from the 80s or 90s) and the nib is not flexy, at most springy.

Modern post '98 800 nibs are nails.

..............................

My '89 W.Germany 800 OM is a nice springy nib. The W.German nibs, in old small 600, 800&200 (don't have a 400 from that era) are a slight bit more springy than the '90/91-96 regular flex nibs.

You do have to have both to feel the slight difference.

 

I call that slightly springy/soft nibs regular flex, in what was the nibs I often got in the late '50's-early 60's.....In my fountain pen was stolen every year, I had a few of them.

Like a Wearever or certain Esterbrooks (Of course my Esterbrooks were the ugly solid color ones with a metal cap....)

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

13 hours ago, TheDutchGuy said:

I’m fortunate to own two P140s, one with F semi-flex and one with a very soft OB. That OB is stunning. 

Semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex.

I limit this flex set to 3 X, in if flexed wider springing the nib becomes sooner than later.

 

Regular flex mashes to 3 X a light down stroke....too mashed to write.

Semi-flex needs only half that pressure to reach 3X

Maxi-semi-flex, half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3X.

 

Degussa, Germany's gold producer took over Osmia's nib factory for debt in 1932.

They continued making Osmai's semi&maxi-semi-flex nibs. So they continued making gold ribbon wheels for nibs....IMO supplying everyone. Much cheaper to buy a gold ribbon wheel than spend hours thinning out a gold bar.

Sometimes IMO  they just took what ever gold ribbon wheel that was easiest to grab. Not caring if it was semi-flex or a maxi-semi-flex.

None of the companies I have maxi's from, MB, Pelikan, Geha, and a few small companies made a big deal about having a nib with more flex than normal....Only Osmia.

 

I have a maxi-semi-flex Pelikan eyeballed to OBBB 500**, and a 400nn OF. My medium-large MB 1950-60 146 had a real nice Maxi also. Have a Geha EF in Maxi...............that is off the top of my head, in I have some @15 of them and @ 35 semi's.

 

** That is a pure signature pen, taking 2/3rds to 3/4ths of a page for a 15 letter legal signature. Can't mark the barrel because of the rolled gold piston cap, and that was before they marked nibs.

[wtlh]

You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds.  The beauty of Pelikans are that it is so easy to swap nibs on them.  I have always kept the collection of nibs and pen bodies separate for my Pelikans, like lens and camera bodies, so that every time I buy a new pen I can still use my favourite nib on it, and put the new nib into storage as a spare.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I think I might have mentioned this ,for the 800, the W. Germany nibs '87?/88-89-90 nibs  are a slight tad more springy than the Germany '91-97 nibs.....you do have to have both to feel the difference.

After '97 the 800 is a nail, and unless you do some major half moon, and slit slicing that is all it will ever be.The 400&600 become semi-nails......and they get fat and blobby nibs that didn't happen to the 200 until @ 4-5 years ago.

 

(I really use to rave about the 200's nib, in it had remained great........until they ruined it too.

 

I do have some W. Germany nibs, an 800, 600, a couple 200's.............that was something I could never really afford to chase, so stumbled into them.

 

I do have some '90-97 nibs, a 400, 200, two Celebries and a 381.

So I can say the W. Germany ones are that slight tad springier in regular flex than the Germany ones.

[stric75]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:45 AM, wtlh said:

You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds.  The beauty of Pelikans are that it is so easy to swap nibs on them.  I have always kept the collection of nibs and pen bodies separate for my Pelikans, like lens and camera bodies, so that every time I buy a new pen I can still use my favourite nib on it, and put the new nib into storage as a spare.

I fully agree with you. Pelikan nib swapping is so easy and convenient. I wish I could say the same for Montblanc Meisterstück series😕

[stric75]

19 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I think I might have mentioned this ,for the 800, the W. Germany nibs '87?/88-89-90 nibs  are a slight tad more springy than the Germany '91-97 nibs.....you do have to have both to feel the difference.

After '97 the 800 is a nail, and unless you do some major half moon, and slit slicing that is all it will ever be.The 400&600 become semi-nails......and they get fat and blobby nibs that didn't happen to the 200 until @ 4-5 years ago.

 

(I really use to rave about the 200's nib, in it had remained great........until they ruined it too.

 

I do have some W. Germany nibs, an 800, 600, a couple 200's.............that was something I could never really afford to chase, so stumbled into them.

 

I do have some '90-97 nibs, a 400, 200, two Celebries and a 381.

So I can say the W. Germany ones are that slight tad springier in regular flex than the Germany ones.

Thanks for the info. This is super helpful. 

[Christopher Godfrey]

@wtlh: <You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds>

 

I should be very surprised if anyone would add flex to an 18kt nib!  Richard Binder told us, categorically, that he would only do this to 14kt nibs.

[stric75]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:58 PM, Christopher Godfrey said:

@wtlh: <You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds>

 

I should be very surprised if anyone would add flex to an 18kt nib!  Richard Binder told us, categorically, that he would only do this to 14kt nibs.

I’m not interested in doing something like that but is that due to higher gold content and assumed “softness” that comes with it? 

[OMASsimo]

18k nibs usually are stiffer than corresponding 14k ones. They have less spring and thus are less suitable for flex nibs. That doesn’t mean that there are no 18k flex nibs at all, but as a rule of thumb, 14k is the better material for flex nibs. In case you were interested in more flex, go for a vintage 400/400NN model. I like those vintage nibs much better than the modern Pelikan nibs, though the modern ones are very good as well in their way.

[stric75]

6 hours ago, OMASsimo said:

18k nibs usually are stiffer than corresponding 14k ones. They have less spring and thus are less suitable for flex nibs. That doesn’t mean that there are no 18k flex nibs at all, but as a rule of thumb, 14k is the better material for flex nibs. In case you were interested in more flex, go for a vintage 400/400NN model. I like those vintage nibs much better than the modern Pelikan nibs, though the modern ones are very good as well in their way.

That’s very interesting. In fact it’s completely opposite from what I thought. I was under impression that the higher the gold content the softer the nib. 

[JulieParadise]

20 minutes ago, stric75 said:

That’s very interesting. In fact it’s completely opposite from what I thought. I was under impression that the higher the gold content the softer the nib. 

 

As with so many things, you cannot generalize. The only thing I have found out regarding nibs in relation to their material is: "The softer the nib ... the softer the nib." Irrespective of the gold content = material. There are fantastic soft steel nibs, there are amazingly soft 14 k gold nibs, 18 k also, but as long as these are not of the same shape and made by the same manufacturer in the same era ... one just cannot predict or compare.

 

Sailor KOP nibs are definitely softer/bouncier than the smaller nibs made of 14 k gold, but these also have a totally different shape.

 

My softest nibs so far have been vintage Kaweco (Dia 785) and Degussa steel nibs.

 

I had a handful of Pelikan M3x0 pens with 14 k nibs, but the 18 k nib of my M350 is a lot softer. 

 

Etc.

[Bo Bo Olson]

7 hours ago, OMASsimo said:

. In case you were interested in more flex, go for a vintage 400/400NN model. I like those vintage nibs much better than the modern Pelikan nibs, though the modern ones are very good as well in their way.

Semi-flex is expected, but one can luck into a maxi-semi-flex lime my 400nn OF.

I have @35 semi-flex and @ 15 maxi-semi-flex............and both the vintage '50-65 and the semi-vintage springy regular flex '82-97 write with a nice clean line...............

The medium-small 140 (a very popular size in the '50-60's) posts to 400 size and balance......and of course one needs one of them too. That's the one that started my semi-flex mania.

 

I suggest chasing a used 200 or even more the Best Buy a used regular flex Geha School pen for @ E-19 on the auction section of German Ebay. (there is no reason to buy it for only $89 on US Ebay.)(As good as a  Pelikan 120, and so, so much cheaper......as the best buy in regular flex. One needs a regular flex/Japanese soft nib....it's a comfortable ride. And then you can compare semi-flex to it and see and feel the difference.

The best buy for semi-flex is the Ghea 790 for @ E-60. Same size as a 400.

 

It is my fault, and my fault alone, that my raving about it over the last 15 years has driven the price from E-15 to E-60.

xxxxxxxx

I have a nice W.Germany 18K 800 OM,  W.Germany 18K OBB 600 and a couple W/Germay 200's....all are that tiny tad springier than my '91-97, steel 200, 14K 400, two Celebries, 14 K gold and steel and my 14K 381..............But you have to have them and  Be Looking For It.

 

 

[bunnspecial]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:58 PM, Christopher Godfrey said:

@wtlh: <You can always go for the route of customisation.  Nibs.com for example offer full flex grinds>

 

I should be very surprised if anyone would add flex to an 18kt nib!  Richard Binder told us, categorically, that he would only do this to 14kt nibs.

 

It's worth mentioning that the current generation of Montblanc flex pens(which are in fact quite flexible-much more so than most other modern "flex" nibs I've used) have 18K nibs.

 

Of course Montblanc, being Montblanc, has full control over not just the shape and thickness of gold but also the gold content.

[OMASsimo]

14 hours ago, stric75 said:

That’s very interesting. In fact it’s completely opposite from what I thought. I was under impression that the higher the gold content the softer the nib. 

 

It seems counter intuitive at first but when you think about it, it’s quite clear. Pure gold is very soft and  pliable. If you bend it, it keeps its new shape. That’s the opposite of flexible. You don’t want a nib to bend, you want it to resume its former shape after applying pressure. This is the typical property that most steels have but not pure gold or other precious metals. The way to get better flexibility is to make alloys. It seems that 18k gold alloys are still relatively soft so that the nibs are made thicker in order not to bend. 14k alloys can be made hard enough so that that’s not an issue. The nibs can be made thin because the material is flexible enough to snap back to its original shape. This is the property you want to make a flex nib.