Borrowing a Platinum Century 3776 UEF for a few days. Good ink for it?

[PotbellyPig]

13 minutes ago, awa54 said:

I find that the kiwaguro makes for heavier lines than most less saturated/waterier inks.

it would surprise me if you didn't get finer lines with a classic dye based ink like Parker, Waterman, Pilot, Herebin, etc.

Okay,  I should get the Aurora Black sample soon so I’ll let you know how it goes.  But I still think my writing technique needs some work if I want to get the finest line out of the UEF.

[awa54]

23 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

Okay,  I should get the Aurora Black sample soon so I’ll let you know how it goes.  But I still think my writing technique needs some work if I want to get the finest line out of the UEF.

 

if Noodler's Borealis is an Aurora black clone, as implied, then you should prepare for even wider lines  

 

...not to mention *extended* dry times

 

[A Smug Dill]

6 hours ago, PotbellyPig said:

For both the Platinum UEF and Sailor EF, the lines are many magnitudes darker no matter what I try.

 

Darker, or broader? When I'm writing in Chinese, or drawing something with very fine detail, if I bother to use a pen filled with black ink at all, I'd want the narrow lines to be intensely dark as opposed to faint; I have many grey inks if I want lighter outcomes on the page.

[arcfide]

It has been my experience that the wet inks (including the pigmented black inks) tend to write both darker and broader lines. If you want the finest lines possible, you'd want something drier, IME. 

[PotbellyPig]

6 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Darker, or broader? When I'm writing in Chinese, or drawing something with very fine detail, if I bother to use a pen filled with black ink at all, I'd want the narrow lines to be intensely dark as opposed to faint; I have many grey inks if I want lighter outcomes on the page.

I guess I’m trying to get finer lines in the end.  The UEF sample on Anderson’s Pens tool page looked finer to me and someone else also recommended Aurora Black so I thought to try that.  But also I thought the Kiwa-guro would write lines on the finer side which it is what I am using.  Is there any other ink I should try or is it a technique/(pressure on the pen) issue?  

 

5 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

It has been my experience that the wet inks (including the pigmented black inks) tend to write both darker and broader lines. If you want the finest lines possible, you'd want something drier, IME. 

 

Any ink suggestions?  The problem is that if you go too dry with a Platinum UEF, it may get scratchy from what I read.

[arcfide]

3 hours ago, PotbellyPig said:

Any ink suggestions?  The problem is that if you go too dry with a Platinum UEF, it may get scratchy from what I read.

 

That's the fundamental trade-off. I don't think you can have both at the extremes. You just have to pick an ink that is not too dry for you but it also not too broad writing for you. I don't think you can have both very wet and lubricated *and* very thin writing. I listed three different ranges in my original post to give you an idea of what you could try across the spectrum. 

[Distaff]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:46 AM, awa54 said:

have you thought about trying some vintage nibs?

 

vintage Pilot posting nibs range from "just" F, to finer and all that I have seen are rigid, though not all have a noticeable downturn of the tip. the problem with vintage is that you'd never be sure what line width you're getting until you write with it (unless you could get a seller to do a writing sample).

the only Plat posting nib I own is a solid, or even slightly generous F.

 

same with fine looking tipping (before the 1970s most Japanese nibs were not marked F,M,B, etc. and the named nibs had a fair amount of variation), I've received some pens that definitely write a *true* EF or EEF line, but often there isn't much difference between these nibs visually ...however, as with any nibs in this class, paper, ink, feed characteristics (including nib slit width) and flex/writing pressure can play in to the final result as much as tipping size.

 

also, plenty of mid century pens from the US are available in accountant or needlepoint. I have several, including rigid Eversharp, Waterman, Sheaffer and Esterbrook (9550 nib unit) pens. while modern "western" F and EF nibs are significantly broader than Japanese equivalents, the vintage variants can definitely compete in the "finest line" contest.

 

all that said, I hope the Plat works out for you!

Appreciate the info.  I thought "needlepoint" was just an expression, not an actual type of nib.  I may see if I can get the 9550 to replace whatever is on my vintage Esterbrook, which is currently in pieces anyway.  Ordered a vintage Platinum with XF (14K too, if I recall correctly) yesterday from Anderson Pens.   That purchase put me way over budget for the month, so I'll be holding back on other stuff (like suggested ink and repairs on the Esterbrook) for quite a while.   Also have a modern inexpensive pen arriving this week from Goulet per their suggestion (can't remember the name, but several YouTube artists use it, and it does appear to draw VERY fine.   

 

I'll update when they arrive, in a new thread so as not to hijack PBP's thread, here.  

[awa54]

40 minutes ago, Distaff said:

Appreciate the info.  I thought "needlepoint" was just an expression, not an actual type of nib.  I may see if I can get the 9550 to replace whatever is on my vintage Esterbrook, which is currently in pieces anyway.  Ordered a vintage Platinum with XF (14K too, if I recall correctly) yesterday from Anderson Pens.   That purchase put me way over budget for the month, so I'll be holding back on other stuff (like suggested ink and repairs on the Esterbrook) for quite a while.   Also have a modern inexpensive pen arriving this week from Goulet per their suggestion (can't remember the name, but several YouTube artists use it, and it does appear to draw VERY fine.   

 

I'll update when they arrive, in a new thread so as not to hijack PBP's thread, here.  

 

 

I'm not certain that any manufacturer used that term in a catalog or ad copy, but it's certainly a common enough way to refer to an ultra-fine nib.

"accountant" and "book keeping" are probably more correct as far as designations that were actually used by manufacturers to refer to their wares.

 

I've had mixed results with the 9550, one is wonderfully smooth and ultra-fine, the other broader (still quite fine) and no matter what adjustments I've tried, it's still scratchy, even on the best papers

[PotbellyPig]

16 hours ago, awa54 said:

if Noodler's Borealis is an Aurora black clone, as implied, then you should prepare for even wider lines  

 

...not to mention *extended* dry times

 

5 hours ago, arcfide said:

That's the fundamental trade-off. I don't think you can have both at the extremes. You just have to pick an ink that is not too dry for you but it also not too broad writing for you. I don't think you can have both very wet and lubricated *and* very thin writing. I listed three different ranges in my original post to give you an idea of what you could try across the spectrum. 

I think I have some Lamy black ink (probably in cartridge form) somewhere.  I’ll try find it and try filling some EF pens and the Platinum UEF with that and the Aurora Black sample when I receive it.  That way, I will have tested both ends of the spectrum (with the Kiwa-guro I already tried which I guess is somewhere in the middle).  

[arcfide]

20 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

I think I have some Lamy black ink (probably in cartridge form) somewhere.  I’ll try find it and try filling some EF pens and the Platinum UEF with that and the Aurora Black sample when I receive it.  That way, I will have tested both ends of the spectrum (with the Kiwa-guro I already tried which I guess is somewhere in the middle).  

 

I'd say with those choices you're testing mostly medium to very wet inks. Aurora and Kiwa-guro are both quite wet/lubricating. Lamy is, IMO, middle of the road. If you want something more dry, you'd need to try something like Parker Quink Black, or something along those lines. 

[PotbellyPig]

26 minutes ago, arcfide said:

 

I'd say with those choices you're testing mostly medium to very wet inks. Aurora and Kiwa-guro are both quite wet/lubricating. Lamy is, IMO, middle of the road. If you want something more dry, you'd need to try something like Parker Quink Black, or something along those lines. 

I don’t know about Lamy black ink’s dryness specifically but in the EFNIB ink reviews, it resulted in just about the finest line of all the inks that have so far been tested.  So I guess it’s worth a shot.  There seems to be some mojo involved whether an ink will write a fine line with an EF nib.  It doesn’t seem to always have to do with wetness, lubrication, pigment/dye, etc..    Also for Aurora Black, it is used for all the samples written that can be looked at with the Anderson Pens Nib tool and the line is noticeably thinner in the Platinum UEF sample than with EF samples from like a Sailor.  Also I’ve read great things about that ink.  So it’s worth a shot.

[A Smug Dill]

1 minute ago, PotbellyPig said:

There seems to be some mojo involved whether an ink will write a fine line with an EF nib.

 

Yes, of course the pen wielder's technique counts. How narrow a line do you require anyway for the sort of writing (and/or drawing) you want to do with that type of pen?

 

 

 

 

I love a fine line at least as much as the next EFNIR fan, but just like I think it's risible for (some) users to take the position of, “wetter is better”, “broader is better”, “larger ratio between connecting strokes and structural strokes is better” without qualifying the characteristics with a target range or maximum, I also think blindly chasing “finer is better” in handwriting is silly. When I put Sailor Kiwaguro in my Pilot Capless black ion-plated EF nib (which writes more dryly than its gold- and silver-coloured kin), the lines were so narrow that it wasn't really useful for writing on 5mm–6mm horizontal ruled lines.

[PotbellyPig]

15 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Yes, of course the pen wielder's technique counts. How narrow a line do you require anyway for the sort of writing (and/or drawing) you want to do with that type of pen?

 

 

 

 

I love a fine line at least as much as the next EFNIR fan, but just like I think it's risible for (some) users to take the position of, “wetter is better”, “broader is better”, “larger ratio between connecting strokes and structural strokes is better” without qualifying the characteristics with a target range or maximum, I also think blindly chasing “finer is better” in handwriting is silly. When I put Sailor Kiwaguro in my Pilot Capless black ion-plated EF nib (which writes more dryly than its gold- and silver-coloured kin), the lines were so narrow that it wasn't really useful for writing on 5mm–6mm horizontal ruled lines.

I’m mainly doing it to kill some time on the side.  I want to see how fine a line I could produce with the Platinum UEF I am borrowing.  But I think it has a lot to do with the technique like you said.  I’ve seen some of your writing samples with Chinese characters in just 5mm grid boxes and it seems you can do it with a wide variety of inks and nib sizes at will.  I also tend to think that Kiwa-guro is pretty good with fine lines.  I’m just going to test some Lamy black and Aurora black ink samples to see if it makes a difference.  But if I use the right technique, a Platinum UEF should be super fine.  Personally, can you make the UEF write finer than a Sailor EF 21k or something like a Pilot EF(Kakuno, etc.) if you put your mind to it?

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

Personally, can you make the UEF write finer than a Sailor EF 21k or something like a Pilot EF(Kakuno, etc.) if you put your mind to it?

 

Probably. Once I get beyond putting 17 parallel horizontal lines in a 5mm-tall square space, though, I need to contend more with being able to hold my hand steady and draw my lines straight, if I don't want the lines to touch each other at all, than I do the limitations of the nib.

 

17 parallel lines in a 5mm-tall space ⋍ 0.16–0.18mm line width; but 0.18mm is the lower end of the range of line width Platinum itself has specified for its UEF nibs:

 

[PotbellyPig]

8 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

17 parallel lines in a 5mm-tall space ⋍ 0.16–0.18mm line width; but 0.18mm is the lower end of the range of line width Platinum itself has specified for its UEF nibs:

Ah thank you!  This at least gives me a benchmark to compare to.  I can try to write the 17 lines in a box with the Lamy black and Aurora Black samples to see if there is a difference.  Also it gives me something to strive for with technique.  I think with a Sailor EF 21k, 14-15 lines is a box is considered pretty good in comparison.

[mke]

9 hours ago, PotbellyPig said:

how fine a line I could produce with the Platinum UEF I am borrowing.  

If you are in for very fine lines, then how about an XXXF nib. That is said to be 0.1 mm. I have a steel Jowo and it is really extreme.

Caution: I think that it is not possible with soft gold nibs. The next fine grade is XXF with 0.2 mm.

I have a steel Jowo and a Pt950 with that size. They are useful in everyday writing if you like fine writing.

 

[mke]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:22 PM, Distaff said:

I am STRONGLY considering purchasing this pen, just for the UEF nib. 

Have you ever thought of Jowo XXF or even XXXF.

Reliable nibs and MUCH cheaper. Get a pen which accepts Jowo #6 from whatever brand you like. Condition is it needs to close well. My Lotus Octa does this and the ink flow from the Jowo XXXF restarts as soon as the nib touches the paper.

In my experience, XXF corresponds to the UEF.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, PotbellyPig said:

I think with a Sailor EF 21k, 14-15 lines is a box is considered pretty good in comparison.

 

This I just did with a Fine nib:

[PotbellyPig]

16 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

This I just did with a Fine nib:

Oh god, skill beats all!  If you have skill, you don’t need inks or really fine nibs.  I wonder how much better you could do with the Platinum UEF?  Like you wrote about reverse writing, probably not more than 19 lines in a box but with your skill, I could never hazard a guess.  Even with the Sailor EF and the Kiwa-guro ink, when I write complex characters in 5mm boxes, I write too slow and the line width thickens and muddies the characters.  I think that is my issue.  You have to write strokes quickly to keep them thin.

[mke]

27 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

Oh god, skill beats all!

and time