Borrowing a Platinum Century 3776 UEF for a few days. Good ink for it?

[PotbellyPig]

I had a negative experience with a Platinum UEF in the past but I am now able to try another sample for a few days.  I was just starting out when I originally tried it and I think I know what to look out for now and how to use it with light pressure.   What would be a good ink to minimize any scratchiness and keep the lines fine?  I’m looking for a black ink.  After much discussion in other threads, I use mainly Kiwa-guro and Sei-Boku (when I want blue) in my Sailor EF 21K gold and Kakuno EF pens.  Would Kiwa-guro be a good choice for the UEF?  Or would you suggest something else?  I think someone wrote a wet ink is better for a UEF nib to minimize scratchiness but wouldn’t that expand the line width.  Thanks.

[arcfide]

IME, the wetter inks will expand the line width a little bit, but they can also reduce the "scratchiness". However, IMO, the nib works very well with a wide range of ink types. If I wanted the absolute minimum of scratchiness and I could tolerate a little line widening, then I'd be looking at Sailor Black, Kiwa-guro, or Platinum Carbon Black. I'd also give Aurora Black, Iroshizuku Take-sumi, and maybe Noodler's Borealis a go. The pigmented Japanese black inks have all been very lubricating IME. Sailor Black is highly lubricating to me. Aurora Black and Noodler's copy supposedly both have a reputation for being quite wet as well. Take-sumi is a good all around wet ink. If I were concerned about the line width and was willing to give up a little in lubrication to get that, I'd probably go with some of the middle of the road inks, like Lamy Black, Perle Noir, or Platinum dye-stuff black. If I wanted the absolute most precise line I could get and I wasn't worried about scratchiness, then Waterman Black, Parker Black, Diamine Registrar's, and the like might be on my list. 

 

But that's just me. I mostly use Platinum Blue Black in my UEF nib and I love that combination. I am, however, extremely tolerant of feedbacky nibs, and usually prefer some feedback. I do think the most lubricating will be the Pigmented blacks and maybe Sailor Black. Sailor Black is a pretty amazing ink, IMO, especially when it comes to flow and lubrication. 

[PotbellyPig]

32 minutes ago, arcfide said:

IME, the wetter inks will expand the line width a little bit, but they can also reduce the "scratchiness". However, IMO, the nib works very well with a wide range of ink types. If I wanted the absolute minimum of scratchiness and I could tolerate a little line widening, then I'd be looking at Sailor Black, Kiwa-guro, or Platinum Carbon Black. I'd also give Aurora Black, Iroshizuku Take-sumi, and maybe Noodler's Borealis a go. The pigmented Japanese black inks have all been very lubricating IME. Sailor Black is highly lubricating to me. Aurora Black and Noodler's copy supposedly both have a reputation for being quite wet as well. Take-sumi is a good all around wet ink. If I were concerned about the line width and was willing to give up a little in lubrication to get that, I'd probably go with some of the middle of the road inks, like Lamy Black, Perle Noir, or Platinum dye-stuff black. If I wanted the absolute most precise line I could get and I wasn't worried about scratchiness, then Waterman Black, Parker Black, Diamine Registrar's, and the like might be on my list. 

 

But that's just me. I mostly use Platinum Blue Black in my UEF nib and I love that combination. I am, however, extremely tolerant of feedbacky nibs, and usually prefer some feedback. I do think the most lubricating will be the Pigmented blacks and maybe Sailor Black. Sailor Black is a pretty amazing ink, IMO, especially when it comes to flow and lubrication. 

Thanks for all the advice.  I happen to have Kiwa-guro black in bottle form so I think I’ll try that first.  I noticed that the pens used for testing in the Anderson Pens nib tool use Aurora black and doing some further research, it seems that ink is supposed to alleviate the scratchiness in nibs due to its lubricating/wetness properties.  The UEF line width also looks pretty fine in the nib tool test, at least compared to a Sailor EF 21k nib.

[Harold]

Arcfide told you all you need to know, but I will add my personal experience: I have tried all of these inks with the exception of Platinum Carbon Black, and the result is that I have been using Aurora Black in Japanese EF nibs exclusively for years now. I strongly recommend you start there if reducing feedback as much as possible really matters to you above all else. It has the added benefit of maintaining its deep, saturated blackness, whereas all of the other inks mentioned will go the slightest bit grey in needlepoint nibs(though that observation reverses completely when it comes to broader nibs). As Arcfide mentioned, Noodler's Borealis Black is a reasonable copy, but it isn't as well-behaved in broader nibs compared to Aurora Black. They are all good inks in their own right, but Aurora Black is the king for this specific application.

 

Though if you already have Kiwa-guro, I don't think it's worth buying an entire bottle of ink for a 10-20% improvement.

[Distaff]

Thanks for the info.   I am STRONGLY considering purchasing this pen, just for the UEF nib.   It will be far and away the most expensive pen I've ever bought.   I keep a strict budget for non-essentials, so I REALLY want to like it if I end up spending an entire month's worth of "fun money."   I live in a rural area, so can't just walk in a store to try it first.   As much as I like FP's, all my current ones either put down far too wide of a line, or aren't reliable writers. 

 

Helps knowing I can order the suggested inks later if what I already have doesn't offer a good experience.

[PotbellyPig]

24 minutes ago, Harold said:

Arcfide told you all you need to know, but I will add my personal experience: I have tried all of these inks with the exception of Platinum Carbon Black, and the result is that I have been using Aurora Black in Japanese EF nibs exclusively for years now. I strongly recommend you start there if reducing feedback as much as possible really matters to you above all else. It has the added benefit of maintaining its deep, saturated blackness, whereas all of the other inks mentioned will go the slightest bit grey in needlepoint nibs(though that observation reverses completely when it comes to broader nibs). As Arcfide mentioned, Noodler's Borealis Black is a reasonable copy, but it isn't as well-behaved in broader nibs compared to Aurora Black. They are all good inks in their own right, but Aurora Black is the king for this specific application.

 

Though if you already have Kiwa-guro, I don't think it's worth buying an entire bottle of ink for a 10-20% improvement.

Yes, Looking at the Anderson Nib tool site, the Aurora Black ink with the Platinum UEF seems to lay a very fine line.  Though there may be differences with the individual nibs.  The fact that it is very lubricating makes it even better.  I’ll try the Kiwa-guro first since I have a bottle.  The Aurora Black is about $20 a bottle plus shipping.  I’ll make a decision after I try the Sailor ink.  I don’t have a platinum converter so I guess I’ll empty a platinum cartridge and refill it.

[Harold]

2 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

Yes, Looking at the Anderson Nib tool site, the Aurora Black ink with the Platinum UEF seems to lay a very fine line.  Though there may be differences with the individual nibs.  The fact that it is very lubricating makes it even better.  I’ll try the Kiwa-guro first since I have a bottle.  The Aurora Black is about $20 a bottle plus shipping.  I’ll make a decision after I try the Sailor ink.  I don’t have a platinum converter so I guess I’ll empty a platinum cartridge and refill it.

I think that would be the best approach considering you might already be satisfied with Kiwa-guro. Luckily, Platinum's cartridges are extremely sturdy. The ball bearings they contain are also great for adding to converters that have some trouble with ink getting stuck at the back and refusing to fall down.

[awa54]

IME Noodler's Borealis has *very* high colorant content and flows generously ...that is, until it pulls a Hyde and starts clogging your feed. personally I'd keep it far away from an ultra-fine nib.

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, Distaff said:

Thanks for the info.   I am STRONGLY considering purchasing this pen, just for the UEF nib.   It will be far and away the most expensive pen I've ever bought.   I keep a strict budget for non-essentials, so I REALLY want to like it if I end up spending an entire month's worth of "fun money."   I live in a rural area, so can't just walk in a store to try it first.   As much as I like FP's, all my current ones either put down far too wide of a line, or aren't reliable writers. 

 

Helps knowing I can order the suggested inks later if what I already have doesn't offer a good experience.

 

Given your situation, it makes a lot of sense to try the UEF nib first, because they are a pretty unique nib in how they approach "ultra extra fine". They aren't quite a needlepoint design, and they aren't quite the same as how Sailor grinds their EF nibs, either. I think this makes them unique and interesting, but also potentially quite polarizing. I've read of a lot of people trying them and ending up not liking them, even though others love them. I'm in the "love them" camp, but I mostly use mine almost as a drafting pen or to demonstrate certain types of fine pointed penmanship in monoline. 

[Distaff]

2 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Given your situation, it makes a lot of sense to try the UEF nib first, because they are a pretty unique nib in how they approach "ultra extra fine". They aren't quite a needlepoint design, and they aren't quite the same as how Sailor grinds their EF nibs, either. I think this makes them unique and interesting, but also potentially quite polarizing. I've read of a lot of people trying them and ending up not liking them, even though others love them. I'm in the "love them" camp, but I mostly use mine almost as a drafting pen or to demonstrate certain types of fine pointed penmanship in monoline. 

Interesting explanation.   I write a lot with Pigma Microns in the smallest sizes.  The marker I have right now ('cause I used up the finer ones, is a 02 which in the fine print says is a 0.3mm line.   I am already used to writing with a very light hand so as to preserve the felt tip as long as possible.   "Scratchy" probably won't bother me too much, and based on other posts here, I probably would prefer drier inks than I have previously collected.   

 

I will probably try to tuck this into the budget by the end of this Summer.

[PotbellyPig]

I got my hands on the UEF today.  It works pretty well with the Kiwa-guro ink.  The feedback is okay and not bad at all.  I have to get used to using very little pressure while writing though.  If you apply pressure, the line gets thicker and will be just like a line from a EF nib.  But the lines shown on Anderson’s Nib tool look a bit finer.  They use Aurora Black for all their samples.  Though it seems contradictory that a lubricant ink will draw a finer lines, I am going to obtain an ink sample to try it.  But it probably has a lot to do with how much pressure you apply while writing.  I hear such great things about Aurora Black anyway so I might as well give it a shot.

[Harold]

3 hours ago, PotbellyPig said:

I got my hands on the UEF today.  It works pretty well with the Kiwa-guro ink.  The feedback is okay and not bad at all.  I have to get used to using very little pressure while writing though.  If you apply pressure, the line gets thicker and will be just like a line from a EF nib.  But the lines shown on Anderson’s Nib tool look a bit finer.  They use Aurora Black for all their samples.  Though it seems contradictory that a lubricant ink will draw a finer lines, I am going to obtain an ink sample to try it.  But it probably has a lot to do with how much pressure you apply while writing.  I hear such great things about Aurora Black anyway so I might as well give it a shot.

If you can't get the hang of writing with a light hand after some practice, a posting(PO) nib would be what you're looking for. It's made specifically to resist spreading the tines when any reasonable amount of pressure is applied. The tines are set in a slight downward curve, which causes them to give way in the vertical direction instead of spreading out when pressure is applied. It's my Japanese extra fine of choice because you can write very quickly without either losing your miniscule line or having to constantly pay attention to your pressure.

[Geslina]

I have this pen in a fine, medium, and broad, prefer the latter two.  The fine is soooo fine, can’t even imagine how fine the EF and UEF must be.  In my fine, I like Sailor Black, Platinum Blue Black, and the Platinum pigmented black cartridges.  I’m thinking of trying Sailor Manyo Kikyou, it seems a wet, nicely flowing ink and I think it might work well in it.

[PotbellyPig]

3 hours ago, Harold said:

If you can't get the hang of writing with a light hand after some practice, a posting(PO) nib would be what you're looking for. It's made specifically to resist spreading the tines when any reasonable amount of pressure is applied. The tines are set in a slight downward curve, which causes them to give way in the vertical direction instead of spreading out when pressure is applied. It's my Japanese extra fine of choice because you can write very quickly without either losing your miniscule line or having to constantly pay attention to your pressure.

Yes, I have read about the Pilot PO nib.  But from the reviews I have seen, I think the UEF has the potential to write even a finer line if you can get used to it pressure-wise.  I’m not sure if the PO is any finer than a Sailor EF on good paper like Rhodia but it may depend on the individual nib sample.  If I wrote on inexpensive paper though, the PO nib would probably give a huge advantage.   I will practice the the UEF.  I haven’t spent much time with it yet.

[Harold]

22 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

I’m not sure if the PO is any finer than a Sailor EF on good paper like Rhodia but it may depend on the individual nib sample.

All of the Japanese extra fines are very similar in width, the PO nib is no different; it's just the rigidity that makes it unique. The UEF will be finer if you can get comfortable writing with light pressure, so there is really no reason to get both if you like the UEF.

[A Smug Dill]

46 minutes ago, PotbellyPig said:

Yes, I have read about the Pilot PO nib.  But from the reviews I have seen, I think the UEF has the potential to write even a finer line if you can get used to it pressure-wise.

 

All else (i.e. ink, paper, ambient temperature and humidity, and user technique including control and modulation of downward pressure) being equal, I'd say the Platinum UEF nib indeed writes finer than a Pilot PO nib.

 

 

I've since acquired a Platinum 14K gold UEF nib (on a #3776 Century), a Platinum 18K gold UEF nib (on a President), a Pilot 14K gold #5 sized EF nib (on a Custom Heritage 91), and a Pilot 14K gold #10 sized PO nib (on a Custom Heritage 912) of my own; and of course I already have Sailor EF nibs, too. The Pilot PO nib is definitely not the pen out of the bunch to put down the finest lines.

 

The Sailor 14K gold EF nib on my Promenade easily rivals the Platinum 14K gold UEF nib when it comes to drawing short lines, by the way.

 

Anyway, you should read that entire “Which Pilot Is Finer?” thread. @AmandaW provided some great drawing samples with her pens for visual comparison.

 

[PotbellyPig]

18 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

All else (i.e. ink, paper, ambient temperature and humidity, and user technique including control and modulation of downward pressure) being equal, I'd say the Platinum UEF nib indeed writes finer than a Pilot PO nib.

 

 

I've since acquired a Platinum 14K gold UEF nib (on a #3776 Century), a Platinum 18K gold UEF nib (on a President), a Pilot 14K gold #5 sized EF nib (on a Custom Heritage 91), and a Pilot 14K gold #10 sized PO nib (on a Custom Heritage 912) of my own; and of course I already have Sailor EF nibs, too. The Pilot PO nib is definitely not the pen out of the bunch to put down the finest lines.

 

The Sailor 14K gold EF nib on my Promenade easily rivals the Platinum 14K gold UEF nib when it comes to drawing short lines, by the way.

 

Anyway, you should read that entire “Which Pilot Is Finer?” thread. @AmandaW provided some great drawing samples with her pens for visual comparison.

 

Thanks for the link.  I will work with the UEF since I will have it for a little while (it’s borrowed).  I think I can get it to write finer than the Sailor EF 21k (I don’t own a 14k EF) regularly with some practice.  I’m also going to try an Aurora Black ink sample to see how that turns out.  

[awa54]

have you thought about trying some vintage nibs?

 

vintage Pilot posting nibs range from "just" F, to finer and all that I have seen are rigid, though not all have a noticeable downturn of the tip. the problem with vintage is that you'd never be sure what line width you're getting until you write with it (unless you could get a seller to do a writing sample).

the only Plat posting nib I own is a solid, or even slightly generous F.

 

same with fine looking tipping (before the 1970s most Japanese nibs were not marked F,M,B, etc. and the named nibs had a fair amount of variation), I've received some pens that definitely write a *true* EF or EEF line, but often there isn't much difference between these nibs visually ...however, as with any nibs in this class, paper, ink, feed characteristics (including nib slit width) and flex/writing pressure can play in to the final result as much as tipping size.

 

also, plenty of mid century pens from the US are available in accountant or needlepoint. I have several, including rigid Eversharp, Waterman, Sheaffer and Esterbrook (9550 nib unit) pens. while modern "western" F and EF nibs are significantly broader than Japanese equivalents, the vintage variants can definitely compete in the "finest line" contest.

 

all that said, I hope the Plat works out for you!

[PotbellyPig]

11 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Anyway, you should read that entire “Which Pilot Is Finer?” thread. @AmandaW provided some great drawing samples with her pens for visual comparison.

I see the @AmandaW drawing sample and the writing sample in the other post in the thread.  I must be doing something totally wrong.  For both the Platinum UEF and Sailor EF, the lines are many magnitudes darker no matter what I try.  I am attempting to hold the pen so that only the weight of the pen is used to write.  But the lines come out much darker than in those examples.   I am using Kiwa-guro ink.  I am receiving a sample of Aurora Black but I have a feeling it’s not the ink,  but my technique that is totally wrong.  

[awa54]

I find that the kiwaguro makes for heavier lines than most less saturated/waterier inks.

it would surprise me if you didn't get finer lines with a classic dye based ink like Parker, Waterman, Pilot, Herebin, etc. (talking about black, as that seems to be @PotbellyPig's preference)