Sailor Changes Its Nibs

[Leftytoo]

Sailor is my favorite pen and I've owned quite a few over 20 years. I just purchased a Pro Gear 21K medium. The nib is marked "M" and not "H-M". In comparing it with the same model (different color) purchased in 2012, I find nib differences that, to me, are not acceptable. The line width has jumped from 0.28 mm to 0.41mm, that is, it has become "Western". Flow is inferior, with ink pooling at the bottom of letters and it writes poorly, with bleeding & feathering, on papers not designed for fountain pens. It is no longer an EDC. Worst of all, it does not have that precision feel, sharp imprint, and tactile feedback that we Sailor aficionados love. It writes like any one of the acceptable $60 pens I've owned. I contacted Sailor. They verified they are changing their nomenclature but have not made any other changes. I returned the pen for a refund. Maybe I got a rare defective nib. If I buy one of these new Sailors, I'll make sure it is easily returnable. For those who complained that Sailors are scratchy, this may be the one you like.

 

There is a great YouTube post comparing Sailor 14K and 21K nibs. The author shows that all write about the same width and ink flow with the exception of M, where the 21K nib is much wider that the 14K equivalent, 

[Paul-in-SF]

May I ask for some clarification? I'm not a Sailor aficionado, so these questions may be naïve. 

 

When Sailor verified they are changing their nomenclature, did they specifically acknowledge that the old HM was now called just M? Is there no longer a nib available called HM? Or is it possible that your new M nib without the H (which I have assumed meant "Hard" or firm) could be softer than your older HM nib? (maybe that's the point, and you don't want a softer nib...)

 

Finally, I am curious how you can measure a line of writing to the 100th of a millimeter. Do you have a magnifier of some type that is marked out to that level of measurement? I ask because I wouldn't mind getting one for myself, if I knew what to look for.  

[Leftytoo]

Hi, Sailor told me that the nib is the same, they only dropped the "H"; you are correct, "H" means Hard. My experience suggests that either they have changed the nib's characteristics, or I got a dud. Whatever, I don't want a nib that writes this way, and if I did I would buy a Platinum 3776, an equally good pen but a different feel from a Sailor.

 

I measure line width with an Edmund Scientific optical comparator with a soil analysis grid. I'm a geologist. I've had it for years and don't know its current cost.

 

Regards, Bob

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Leftytoo said:

Flow is inferior, with ink pooling at the bottom of letters and it writes poorly, with bleeding & feathering,

 

That tells me the flow is greater on your new pen; and the visual comparison you provided of your Sailor pens' written output supports that conclusion. While I'm not personally in that camp, many users would characterise greater ink flow, especially when it comes to Japanese fountain pens, as ‘better’ instead of ‘inferior’. A greater ink flow alone is sufficient to make ink tracks broader; and greater ink flow could be influenced strongly by the feed (as opposed to the nib, i.e. the piece of metal).

 

32 minutes ago, Leftytoo said:

My experience suggests that either they have changed the nib's characteristics, or I got a dud.

 

If the crux of your complaint is about the nib, or specifically the geometry of the tipping material's grind, then I think you need to test it on the same feed. Furthermore, in my experience as I've made physical adjustments on the 21K gold nib on my Sailor Pro Gear Imperial Black, changing the width of the tine gap minimally can have a substantial impact on line width, as can how snugly the nib is seated on the feed.

 

[arcfide]

My initial thought would have been to see if there was a difference in the tine spacing between your two pens, as that could account for this, I think. 

[Paul-in-SF]

2 hours ago, Leftytoo said:

I measure line width with an Edmund Scientific optical comparator with a soil analysis grid.

 

Thanks for the information, very helpful.

[PotbellyPig]

19 hours ago, Leftytoo said:

Sailor is my favorite pen and I've owned quite a few over 20 years. I just purchased a Pro Gear 21K medium. The nib is marked "M" and not "H-M". In comparing it with the same model (different color) purchased in 2012, I find nib differences that, to me, are not acceptable. The line width has jumped from 0.28 mm to 0.41mm, that is, it has become "Western". Flow is inferior, with ink pooling at the bottom of letters and it writes poorly, with bleeding & feathering, on papers not designed for fountain pens. It is no longer an EDC. Worst of all, it does not have that precision feel, sharp imprint, and tactile feedback that we Sailor aficionados love. It writes like any one of the acceptable $60 pens I've owned. I contacted Sailor. They verified they are changing their nomenclature but have not made any other changes. I returned the pen for a refund. Maybe I got a rare defective nib. If I buy one of these new Sailors, I'll make sure it is easily returnable. For those who complained that Sailors are scratchy, this may be the one you like.

 

There is a great YouTube post comparing Sailor 14K and 21K nibs. The author shows that all write about the same width and ink flow with the exception of M, where the 21K nib is much wider that the 14K equivalent, 

You say your older M nib drew a 0.28 mm line?  That sounds like an exceptional case.  If you look around the web, no maker advertises a 0.28 mm line as Medium.  Not even Japanese makers whose nibs run on the fine side.  That is either Fine or even Extra Fine.  Mediums run closer to 0.4-0.5 mm.  This is just from my observation of how things are currently.

[Barry Gabay]

Sailor's KoP nibs have also recently been changed. There is a new nib design which does not include the long-familiar 1911 engraving. Shown below are photos of an older KoP nib with last year's nib and a very recent one.  There are also photos of the new nib in rhodium plating and in all-yellow gold compared to slightly older nibs.  These are marked B and M, as are all KoP nibs with the exception of Sailor's specialty KoP nibs. 

[arcfide]

I think some people prefer the old nib style, but I have to admit that I like the more minimalist look of the new nib design more. I've always like the very modern look to the Platinum nibs, and the Sailor redesign feels like it moves in that same vein, so that's more to my tastes. 

[PithyProlix]

15 hours ago, Barry Gabay said:

Sailor's KoP nibs have also recently been changed. There is a new nib design which does not include the long-familiar 1911 engraving. Shown below are photos of an older KoP nib with last year's nib and a very recent one.  There are also photos of the new nib in rhodium plating and in all-yellow gold compared to slightly older nibs.  These are marked B and M, as are all KoP nibs with the exception of Sailor's specialty KoP nibs. 

 

With the old nib, the scrolling matches with the "1911" and anchor, in style - sort of an early 20th century vintage look, similar to Montblanc's typical nib design. The new nib's scrolling is largely the same, retaining the same vintage look, but the anchor is a much more contemporary style (is there a name for this style?). I am OK with the new anchor, in isolation, as well as a more minimal design, but the juxtaposition of styles looks really awkward, IMO. I am surprised Sailor approved this, especially since, otherwise, Sailor's visual design has been very, very good, all in all.

[A Smug Dill]

1 minute ago, PithyProlix said:

I am OK with the new anchor, in isolation, as well as a more minimal design, but the juxtaposition of styles looks really awkward, IMO. I am surprised Sailor approved this especially since, otherwise, Sailor's visual design has been very, very good, all in all.

 

I'm disappointed by the absence of the country of manufacture in the inscription on the new-style Sailor nibs.

[Barry Gabay]

7 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

 

With the old nib, the scrolling matches with the "1911" and anchor, in style - sort of an early 20th century vintage look, similar to Montblanc's typical nib design. The new nib's scrolling is largely the same, retaining the same vintage look, but the anchor is a much more contemporary style (is there a name for this style?). I am OK with the new anchor, in isolation, as well as a more minimal design, but the juxtaposition of styles looks really awkward, IMO. I am surprised Sailor approved this, especially since, otherwise, Sailor's visual design has been very, very good, all in all.

Your comments are similar to mine in conversation with friends.  I'm not in love with the new nib design, but will grow accustomed to it because I will continue using these exceptional nibs. 

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I'm disappointed by the absence of the country of manufacture in the inscription on the new-style Sailor nibs.

 

Agreed. 

 

8 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

I am OK with the new anchor, in isolation, as well as a more minimal design, but the juxtaposition of styles looks really awkward, IMO.

 

I do think they missed the opportunity to update the scrollwork in some way, and that the design could be improved in that regard. 

[Harold]

I also think the visual design is a bit confused. I'd either have left the 1911 on there or gone for something more streamlined when it comes to the scrollwork.

[phoenix_2007]

A few years ago (2016-17), I purchased a Sailor Realo Gear Pro (black) with H-M 21K golden nib fountain pen from ebay, and I am very pleased with this pen. Just a few days ago (Mai, 2023), I also purchased a Sailor Realo Gear Pro (maroon) with M 21K golden nib fountain pen from ebay and I then noticed that the Sailor Logo on the nib has been altered.

 

In fact, I hadn't noticed that from 2022 onwards, the Sailor company has changed its Logo (there is also a formal company announcement regarding this issue).

The nib in my new pen does not have the inscriptions "1911" (on top) and "Sailor" (at the bottom), as my older Realo Gear Pro does have. I think the older nibs with these above-mentioned inscriptions were more beautiful than the newer ones. But that is a matter of individual's opinion.

 

However, and I must underline that, the quality of the nib in my new fountain pen is exactly the same. That is a wet very well tuned nib, presenting a mild feedback (as my older Sailor presents), without skipping or any change in the line width. For the M-size nib (in Japanese Sailor style) the line is almost identical compared to an F-size European nib (as it should be). The overall fountain pen (cap, barrel, piston filling mechanism) still remains the same as my older Sailor Realo Gear Pro.

[james3paris]

Size comparison chart:

 

https://www.nibs.com/content/nib-tipping-sizes

 

https://www.penchalet.com/nib_tipping_sizes.aspx

[TitoThePencilPimp]

On 4/16/2022 at 3:16 PM, Leftytoo said:

Sailor is my favorite pen and I've owned quite a few over 20 years. I just purchased a Pro Gear 21K medium. The nib is marked "M" and not "H-M". In comparing it with the same model (different color) purchased in 2012, I find nib differences that, to me, are not acceptable. The line width has jumped from 0.28 mm to 0.41mm, that is, it has become "Western". Flow is inferior, with ink pooling at the bottom of letters and it writes poorly, with bleeding & feathering, on papers not designed for fountain pens. It is no longer an EDC. Worst of all, it does not have that precision feel, sharp imprint, and tactile feedback that we Sailor aficionados love. It writes like any one of the acceptable $60 pens I've owned. I contacted Sailor. They verified they are changing their nomenclature but have not made any other changes. I returned the pen for a refund. Maybe I got a rare defective nib. If I buy one of these new Sailors, I'll make sure it is easily returnable. For those who complained that Sailors are scratchy, this may be the one you like.

 

There is a great YouTube post comparing Sailor 14K and 21K nibs. The author shows that all write about the same width and ink flow with the exception of M, where the 21K nib is much wider that the 14K equivalent, 

have you tried a sailor or pilot ink?