Vintage Pilot identificaion, 14k Nib Fine/Medium

[Pspboy17]

I bought this pen on ebay yesterday, but I wasn't able to find much of anything about it. It looks like it shares a nib & transparent feed with the Pilot Custom FK-700-R, but that's it. The clip and bod has similarities to a full size vintage elite, but the gold banding is different.

I don't see any markings on the body, and the nib is pretty bare besides the jis logo.

Attached are a few pictures from the only other listing I can find about it. The pictures show a medium nib, and the ebay listing was for a fine. When it comes in I will post a review and some more pictures if needed. Thanks!

[PithyProlix]

It's a グランダム (something like 'Grandam'). See the second post in this thread:

 

[Pspboy17]

Thank you so much! There's a couple reviews for it under the Japanese name, sounds pretty promising. I will be sure to make a review

[awa54]

I own three of these in two variants, one type (like yours) is just Pilot branded, the other (which is a parts donor that I can't lay hands on right now) shows either Custom or Deluxe branding (can't remember which, but 95% certain it wasn't Elite) on the cap, but has identical construction.

 

all of them have clear lacquer applied over the plastic feeds, which has bubbled on all of my pens and peeled on one.

 

only one of mine has a fully intact cap, with the parts pen lacking an inner cap-spring plate and the second functional pen having either the wrong spring plate, or just a damaged one, making cap retention pretty weak. the writing units (EF, M and B ) are all nice writers, with a fairly soft feel and when used with the good cap, show decent cap seal.

[PithyProlix]

I have two, both externally identical to yours. One, the subject of the thread I linked to above, is an SF, the other an EF, both well-used. 

 

Both caps have a pretty nice 'snap' but are loose, one perilously close to coming off with very little pressure applied. As lacquered aluminum caps on an otherwise resin pen, I think they are a bit unusual. 

 

Mine has clear lacquer on the bottom surface of the feed, i. e. the part that doesn't contact the nib, as @awa54mentioned for his. This lacquer is in not-too-good shape but perhaps as expected from well-used pens. 

 

The nibs are both 14k and quite nice, I think. The SF is a bit softer than other Pilot SFs I have. The EF has a little softness to it with a line width a smidgen smaller than the smaller of my other Pilot Fs and a smidgen bigger than my only other Pilot EF, a Custom 74.

 

My SF is very finicky about ink. It works well with the current Waterman Mysterious Blue. 

[Pspboy17]

Pen came in, I think the previous owner left some ink in it and I flushed it out for a while.

First impressions are that the nib is pretty smooth for a fine and has a good amount of bounce, but it is really dry. It wouldn't even put ink down at first unless I pressed down. I opened the tines a bit and now it writes with no pressure, but it's still really dry and I think I would like it to be a bit wetter. Gonna try it for a little bit before I open them up any more.

 

Here it is compared to my medium Metropolitian that I opened the tines up on.

[awa54]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:09 PM, Pspboy17 said:

Pen came in, I think the previous owner left some ink in it and I flushed it out for a while.

First impressions are that the nib is pretty smooth for a fine and has a good amount of bounce, but it is really dry. It wouldn't even put ink down at first unless I pressed down. I opened the tines a bit and now it writes with no pressure, but it's still really dry and I think I would like it to be a bit wetter. Gonna try it for a little bit before I open them up any more.

 

Here it is compared to my medium Metropolitian that I opened the tines up on.

 

 

How did you clean the pen? If it was a simple flush with cool water, then I suspect further cleaning (or extended use, which can dissolve old ink over time) may be in order, before adjusting the nib...

 

Ideally a run through an ultrasonic cleaner using warm water with pen cleaner, or clear ammonia would ensure that the feed channels are completely clear of old ink, if you don't have an ultrasonic unit, then a warm water soak with pen cleaner is the next best thing (leaving the section in the solution overnight can't really hurt either). 

If you have access to veterinary syringes, then trimming the bottom off of a Pilot cartridge and affixing it to a 20-40cc syringe, will give you the ability to "power flush" the feed system, while this isn't as good at removing old ink as the ultrasonic, it's close and I usually do it before and after ultrasonic baths. NOTE that you need to hold the pen section firmly, while expelling water through it, otherwise you risk blasting the section off of the dummy cartridge, possibly damaging the nib.

 

Then there's the sad possibility (unfortunately not uncommon in vintage Japanese pens) that someone left actual sumi in the pen for an extended time, or used that Asian red ink that dissolves plastic feeds... the red ink damage is usually terminal, while sumi can often be removed (at least from the main feed channel) with a shim or dental pick, after complete disassembly of the nib/feed unit  ...I'm not sure how this particular model comes apart, as I've never needed to disassemble one.

Dried sumi will often obstruct the nib slit, so flossing can be required as well.

[Pspboy17]

I have a cleaning bulb from a pilot parallel that fits this pen. I ran it under warm water for a bit, did a few minutes of flushing warm water through it with the bulb, then let it sit in a cup of water overnight. I got out a fair bit of black particulate which looked very similar to my Targa that had not been cleaned.

I just ran some more warm water through it with a drop of dish soap, I didn't get much particulate out of it so maybe it's clean now? I'm not sure.

Taking it apart seems slightly more difficult than most other pens, This link has a guide of sorts but it looks like more of a last resort if normal cleaning doesn't work.

I will let it sit in water for a little longer then I will try writing with it again. Currently the tines appear completely closed about 2-3mm back from the tip, I can see a tiny sliver of light where it leaves the feed though.

I'm thinking it has more to do with the nib with the feed, if I write a line with light to moderate pressure the line is very wet and it doesn't seem to dry out after writing for a while.

If I write with no pressure, it lays down a very dry and light line. Anything else you would suggest? I would really like it to be wetter when applying no pressure.

Thank you

 

[awa54]

 

***WARNING***

I foolishly didn't preface my slit degreasing suggestion with the fact that some plastics can react with alcohol (especially denatured) and crack, craze, haze, soften, or even melt!

all celluloid is damaged by alcohol, if you don't know for certain that a part can resist a given solvent, then assume it can't!

modern Pilot plastics are safe with rubbing alcohol in all of my experience, at least for brief contact. 

the "vintage" pen being discussed in this thread is a modern pen in that respect.

 

(original post follows)

 

That's a great link!

 

I'd say that you've done as good a cleaning as your tools permit, so a patient user might just ink it and write for a few weeks relying on the fresh ink to incrementally dissolve old ink residue out... which could still be the issue.

 

however, if you haven't flossed the nib yet, or cleaned the slit with solvent, then those may still help. flossing is accomplished by running a very thin piece of shim stock down the nib slit with care not to gouge up the inner surface of the slit walls, or the feed and not to spread the tines excessively. brass feeler gauges, dulled DE razor blades, custom made sheet stock tools (I've made then from silver and brass), or even thin enough plastic from a blister pack type retail package, can be used. the most important parameter is that the tool needs crisp, but not sharp edges and can't be thicker than the slit is wide at the breather hole. for slit degreasing, I use a cotton swab moistened with alcohol (not swimming in it!) and just run it from breather to tip a few times, I've rehabbed quite a few vintage pens and before I had an ultrasonic cleaner, that last trick was required surprisingly often on Japanese pens that had been "stored" for prolonged periods with ink in them.

 

using a wetter/higher flow ink could be a solution as well.

 

of course if none of those work, the technique of bending gently manipulating outward from the nib wings may be your only way to get more flow, it ought to work on this nib, though the flat top deck may complicate that...

[PithyProlix]

48 minutes ago, awa54 said:

for slit degreasing, I use a cotton swab moistened with alcohol (not swimming in it!) and just run it from breather to tip a few times, I've rehabbed quite a few vintage pens and before I had an ultrasonic cleaner, that last trick was required surprisingly often on Japanese pens that had been "stored" for prolonged periods with ink in them.

 

Thanks for this suggestion! Is this something you do regularly when you receive your used vintage pens or only problematic ones?

[awa54]

50 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

 

Thanks for this suggestion! Is this something you do regularly when you receive your used vintage pens or only problematic ones?

 

 

No! if you can avoid using solvents on unknown vintage plastic, please do ...some can be destroyed by alcohol, acetone, or other solvents.

 

this is why I use only a small amount of alcohol, so it can't fill the feed, hopefully minimizing the chance of damaging the feed or hood/section plastic. (all of the late 1960s and newer Pilots I have seen use plastics that don't react to alcohol)

 

a low power ultrasonic cleaner with pen wash is a better solution, but not everyone has access to either of those.

[awa54]

@Pspboy17 If you have a good local art supply store, or access to Amazon.com, I'd suggest picking up a bottle of the Speedball pen cleaner (Koh-i-noor is also good, but more expensive and not any better), especially if you think you might be interested in acquiring more vintage pens.

 

An overnight soak with the pen cleaner, followed with a bulb-assisted flush is 90%+ as effective as an ultrasonic session, it just takes hours to do rather than minutes.

 

Your particular pen is safe for the rubbing alcohol (70-90% isopropyl) on a swab trick, but that method should be considered risky outside of lower end, modern plastic pens...

 

collecting vintage/used is fun and can be an affordable way to try lots of different makers or styles, but it can be frustrating as well, with unavailable parts or pens with unseen damages being fairly common issues when you don't buy (more expensive) NOS or professionally restored pens.

 

If you wind up with a bad case of vintage acquisition disorder, then a small ultrasonic cleaner is almost a necessity. After I got mine ($40 off Amazon), I mentally kicked myself for not doing so years earlier!

[Pspboy17]

Thanks for the advice, I will check my art store tomorrow and see if they carry any.

I ended up gently pulling the tines apart for a little bit until I could see light almost to the end of the tines. It is writing a lot nicer now! I'm really happy with it. After this converter is empty I will run some pen flush through it, hopefully by then this ink will get some of the older ink moving again.

It's not super wet, but it's about average and the nib has a really nice amount of feedback to it. I didn't plan to develop a vintage pen problem, but now I'm not so sure. Some better gear and an ultrasonic cleaner will likely be on my list for the next one.

Thank you for your help so far

[PithyProlix]

1 hour ago, Pspboy17 said:

Thanks for the advice, I will check my art store tomorrow and see if they carry any.

I ended up gently pulling the tines apart for a little bit until I could see light almost to the end of the tines. It is writing a lot nicer now! I'm really happy with it. After this converter is empty I will run some pen flush through it, hopefully by then this ink will get some of the older ink moving again.

It's not super wet, but it's about average and the nib has a really nice amount of feedback to it. I didn't plan to develop a vintage pen problem, but now I'm not so sure. Some better gear and an ultrasonic cleaner will likely be on my list for the next one.

Thank you for your help so far

 

That looks great - a vast improvement. Tine gap issues have been rare with my vintage Japanese pens (but tine alignment issues are not infrequent). Mostly it seems to be a matter of cleaning them out well. 

 

Japanese pens tend to be a little on the dry side (which I prefer) though consistent flow seems to be a strength for them, based on my experience so far with 1960s and later pens from the Big Three - Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor - and from folks' comments about them here and elsewhere. (My finicky Grandam mentioned previously is an exception, I think.) A 'wetter' ink can sometimes solve flow problems that are difficult to address otherwise, by the way. 

 

I bought just about the cheapest ultrasonic cleaner I could find - one speed, battery-operated, plastic construction, etc. I can't really remember the price - I think it was less than $10 but it was well reviewed with many positive comments and high marks. It helps immensely but I can't help thinking that maybe I should have spent a bit more and gotten a better one. The one I have hasn't seemed to help cure ink starvation issues with three of my pens, for instance. 

 

12 hours ago, awa54 said:

I'd suggest picking up a bottle of the Speedball pen cleaner (Koh-i-noor is also good, but more expensive and not any better)

 

@awa54 Do you have experience using ammonia diluted in distilled water (sometimes I will add a few drops of dish soap)? Do you think the Speedball or Koh-i-noor cleaner is significantly better?

[awa54]

2 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

 

That looks great - a vast improvement. Tine gap issues have been rare with my vintage Japanese pens (but tine alignment issues are not infrequent). Mostly it seems to be a matter of cleaning them out well. 

 

Japanese pens tend to be a little on the dry side (which I prefer) though consistent flow seems to be a strength for them, based on my experience so far with 1960s and later pens from the Big Three - Pilot, Platinum, and Sailor - and from folks' comments about them here and elsewhere. (My finicky Grandam mentioned previously is an exception, I think.) A 'wetter' ink can sometimes solve flow problems that are difficult to address otherwise, by the way. 

 

I bought just about the cheapest ultrasonic cleaner I could find - one speed, battery-operated, plastic construction, etc. I can't really remember the price - I think it was less than $10 but it was well reviewed with many positive comments and high marks. It helps immensely but I can't help thinking that maybe I should have spent a bit more and gotten a better one. The one I have hasn't seemed to help cure ink starvation issues with three of my pens, for instance. 

 

 

@awa54 Do you have experience using ammonia diluted in distilled water (sometimes I will add a few drops of dish soap)? Do you think the Speedball or Koh-i-noor cleaner is significantly better?

 

 

as far as ammonia (10% max) vs. pen cleaner (can be used full strength if needed), I feel like the pen cleaner is better for deep cleaning dirty parts that aren't easy to disassemble, while ammonia flushes out easier, so it's better if you just want to do a "white glove" flush on a working pen (i.e.: changing to a lighter color ink).

ammonia in higher concentration or used for extended soaks can actually leach the non-gold alloy components from gold nibs, in extreme cases making the metal brittle.

 

also, remember that the cleaning action of an ultrasonic relies on cavitation of the fluid, so if you don't get all the air out of a feed/section, the area with the air pocket doesn't get clean.

 

for ultrasonic cleaners, the smaller and cheaper models are safer for delicate items like pens; an industrial power unit with heated tank is overkill and even has the potential to cause damage to plastics if it doesn't have a low power setting for the u/s transducer.

my sweet spot cleaner, purchased off Amazon for $40, looks like a miniature commercial model (all metal, stainless tank though only .6 liter), but has only 35 watts of power to the transducer (heavy duty models can have 60-80 watts and multiple transducers in larger tanks).

the only heat is the transducers waste heat from running, so the tank never gets too hot, even when I run back to back 30 min. cycles.

the cheap-o plastic models for glasses, dentures, etc. are easy to find and do a good job though, so there's no shame in using them!

 

I have a 2 liter heated u/s for bike parts etc., that one never sees use on pens.

[PithyProlix]

40 minutes ago, awa54 said:

also, remember that the cleaning action of an ultrasonic relies on cavitation of the fluid, so if you don't get all the air out of a feed/section, the area with the air pocket doesn't get clean

 

Good point. That issue seems independent of the ultrasonic cleaner's quality.

 

(And that's probably why it hasn't been solving the ink starvation issues. Maybe I can figure out how to force water into the ink channel prior to using the ultrasonic cleaner on it ...)

[awa54]

22 hours ago, PithyProlix said:

 

Good point. That issue seems independent of the ultrasonic cleaner's quality.

 

(And that's probably why it hasn't been solving the ink starvation issues. Maybe I can figure out how to force water into the ink channel prior to using the ultrasonic cleaner on it ...)

 

 

depending on your ultrasonic cleaners tank shape and size, you may be able to just hold the section so that one end is elevated above the other, while the cleaner is running and wait until no more air bubbles come out.

putting your fingers in a running commercial u/s cleaner is considered to be detrimental, potentially causing bruising or even joint damage, but occasional brief contact with the cleaning tank in a 15-30 watt hobby/cosmetic cleaner shouldn't be terribly dangerous. of course, you may also be able to do this without putting your hand in the tank, maybe by tipping the parts holding basket, or using plastic tweezers to get the same effect.

if you can push or pull water through the feed with a syringe and dummy cartridge, then that's probably the best way to get u/s fluid in there and you can do it without the cleaner running.

 

for badly gummed up feeds adding pen cleaner and using warm water really helps.

[PithyProlix]

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

 

 

depending on your ultrasonic cleaners tank shape and size, you may be able to just hold the section so that one end is elevated above the other, while the cleaner is running and wait until no more air bubbles come out.

putting your fingers in a running commercial u/s cleaner is considered to be detrimental, potentially causing bruising or even joint damage, but occasional brief contact with the cleaning tank in a 15-30 watt hobby/cosmetic cleaner shouldn't be terribly dangerous. of course, you may also be able to do this without putting your hand in the tank, maybe by tipping the parts holding basket, or using plastic tweezers to get the same effect.

if you can push or pull water through the feed with a syringe and dummy cartridge, then that's probably the best way to get u/s fluid in there and you can do it without the cleaner running.

 

for badly gummed up feeds adding pen cleaner and using warm water really helps.

 

Thanks for the pointers. 

 

I'll probably try using a dummy cartridge with bulb syringe since that seems easiest to make (though likely more difficult to operate, I think). 

[awa54]

another thing I should mention is that when using a low power ultrasonic cleaner to attempt to remove dried in inks (especially sumi) takes multiple cleaning cycles (and occasionally doesn't deliver the desired result, without disassembly and mechanical cleaning of feed channels with a shim, much like nib flossing).

most of these light duty units have maximum run times of 15-30 minutes, partly because the light cleaning duties and delicate materials they're designed for don't usually require long run times and also due to an inability to shed the heat generated by extended running.

my unit can handle back to back 30min. cycles, but a really obstructed feed might take a couple hours of cumulative cleaning time... In this case, make sure to give your cleaner a "rest" between cycles to make sure you don't damage it!

after every few cycles, remove your section and flush it to see if "ink" flow has increased, if not run a few more cycles... if you still don't get the results you need from a few hours of combined cleaning in concert with an overnight soak, then the feed needs to be disassembled and detail cleaned by hand (or possibly is damaged beyond use by inks that aren't fountain pen safe).

[Pspboy17]

Small update, the kon-peki I filled it with 3 days ago has gradually become darker and greener, hopefully some of the old ink is starting to move again. Got some ammonia to make my own flush, will see how it goes.