Can I learn calligraphy with a fountain pen?

[InkyKitten]

Hello!

I have many fountain pens, including a Pilot Falcon, but no dip pens.

I also no longer have the means to order anything new online, so I'm curious, can I do calligraphy with a regular fountain pen?

If so, what hands would you reccomend to start with? 

Thanks

[Ergative]

Depends on the script and the nib. A pen with an italic nib--a crisp italic, not a stub or cursive italic--can work for basically any broad-pen script. Probably you should start with Foundational hand. 

 

If you want to learn a pointed pen script, like Spencerian or Copperplate, you need a dip pen with an oblique pen holder. Fountain pen flex nibs are not flexible enough to give the required line variation, and sit at the wrong angle to the slant of the script. You don't get crisp enough line variation with a flex fountain pen nib, and if you try to force it you'd spring the nib and ruin it.

[InkyKitten]

15 minutes ago, Ergative said:

Depends on the script and the nib. A pen with an italic nib--a crisp italic, not a stub or cursive italic--can work for basically any broad-pen script. Probably you should start with Foundational hand. 

 

If you want to learn a pointed pen script, like Spencerian or Copperplate, you need a dip pen with an oblique pen holder. Fountain pen flex nibs are not flexible enough to give the required line variation, and sit at the wrong angle to the slant of the script. You don't get crisp enough line variation with a flex fountain pen nib, and if you try to force it you'd spring the nib and ruin it.

Thank you for explaining. I have three or four Pilot Plumix pens, so I think those count as stubs...

[A Smug Dill]

37 minutes ago, Ergative said:

Fountain pen flex nibs are not flexible enough to give the required line variation, and sit at the wrong angle to the slant of the script. You don't get crisp enough line variation with a flex fountain pen nib,

 

I’m not so sure about that, when @InkyKitten has tiny handwriting. What is the minimum ratio of line widths prescribed or required for proper Spencerian form?

 

See also:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/364551-best-everday-flex-character-for-my-writing-if-i-decide-to-step-up-to-300-level/?do=findComment&comment=4511853

 

[WalterC]

A dip pen with a flexible nib and oblique nib holder is the ideal for pointed pen cursive scripts. I disagree a little bit with ergative: I think you can learn quite a bit doing pointed pen scripts with fountain pens without much flex.  You can still learn beautiful letter forms. Of course, it is more fun with a flex nib. Does your Pilot falcon have some flexibility? (the FA nib on my 912 certainly does). Just don't overflex it. A bunch of scripts and lessons can be found at Iampeth. Take a look at them and pick your favorite. One I like is WA Baird lessons

      Your Plumix with stub nib would be OK for starting Italic writing.

[Ergative]

I guess it depends if you want to learn better handwriting or formal calligraphy. For formal Spencerian, you can't get thin enough lines with a fountain pen.  Dip pen nibs give you that crispness because they are not tipped--but of course, that's why they wear out and need to be replaced every few days or weeks.

 

For learning formal calligraphy, it's not really relevant what your natural handwriting size is, since you have to relearn everything about how you write every letterform to do it.

 

But of course a lot of the principles of Spencerian writing can be transferred to make very nice handwriting, in which case a slightly flexy fountain pen would be fine. But that's not really what I think when I read a question like 'Can I learn calligraphy'; that's 'can I improve my handwriting.'

 

I wouldn't recommend copperplate with any fountain pen, because it requires such heavy shading. It's a lot to ask of a flex nib.

[A Smug Dill]

26 minutes ago, Ergative said:

For formal Spencerian, you can't get thin enough lines with a fountain pen.

 

How narrow or fine do the hairlines need to be? How wide or broad do the swells need to be, for proper Spencerian form, if you’re writing it with x-height of 3mm or smaller? I don’t accept that formal Spencerian or formal calligraphy implicitly exclude writing small, or that one must start learning and practising by writing larger; that’s the point I was making.

 

[InkyKitten]

16 hours ago, WalterC said:

A dip pen with a flexible nib and oblique nib holder is the ideal for pointed pen cursive scripts. I disagree a little bit with ergative: I think you can learn quite a bit doing pointed pen scripts with fountain pens without much flex.  You can still learn beautiful letter forms. Of course, it is more fun with a flex nib. Does your Pilot falcon have some flexibility? (the FA nib on my 912 certainly does). Just don't overflex it. A bunch of scripts and lessons can be found at Iampeth. Take a look at them and pick your favorite. One I like is WA Baird lessons

      Your Plumix with stub nib would be OK for starting Italic writing.

Thank you so much for your advice. Yes, my Falcon has a bit of flexibility. Going to check out the site that you reccommended. 

[InkyKitten]

15 hours ago, Ergative said:

I guess it depends if you want to learn better handwriting or formal calligraphy. For formal Spencerian, you can't get thin enough lines with a fountain pen.  Dip pen nibs give you that crispness because they are not tipped--but of course, that's why they wear out and need to be replaced every few days or weeks.

 

For learning formal calligraphy, it's not really relevant what your natural handwriting size is, since you have to relearn everything about how you write every letterform to do it.

 

But of course a lot of the principles of Spencerian writing can be transferred to make very nice handwriting, in which case a slightly flexy fountain pen would be fine. But that's not really what I think when I read a question like 'Can I learn calligraphy'; that's 'can I improve my handwriting.'

 

I wouldn't recommend copperplate with any fountain pen, because it requires such heavy shading. It's a lot to ask of a flex nib.

Thank you for the information. I guess I'll change my focus from "proper calligraphy" to just having better handwriting for now.

[Pamp]

As mentioned above, a lot depends upon which kind of calligraphy you want to do. With that said, I've been doing various forms of calligraphy for years with fountain pens. Early on, starting in the 1990s, I used fountain pens with broad edged nibs for italic calligraphy, and lately, I've been using fountain pens with pointed flex nibs for modern script calligraphy. (For formal Copperplate, you would need an oblique dip pen to get the exact slant, though. I tend to do more modern calligraphy and less formal now.)  I especially love the ultra flex nib from FPR for modern script calligraphy. I have the Himalaya V2 from FPR with their ultra flex nib, and it works beautifully for me.  I wrote a blog post about that pen here Himalaya V2 Ultra Flex Fountain Pen Review.(I don't get any commission if you buy one.) I wrote a blog post about using my flex fountain pens for modern calligraphy here Modern Flex Fountain Pens for Modern Calligraphy.  I've also used Sheaffer fountain pens with italic nibs a lot in the past, for italic calligraphy, and you can see a few photos of that in this post, toward the bottom of the post  Fountain Pen Basics and Tips for Beginners.  I know that it's not a common thing to use fountain pens for calligraphy, but I like that I don't always have to use a dip pen and can just grab my flex fountain pens. So, I'm not sure why more people don't do it. I think it just hasn't caught on yet, because good modern flex nibs are a pretty recent thing. (I have several other FPR fountain pens with flex nibs, and I like them all. The FPR Himalaya V2 is my personal favorite.) I also have two BlueDew flex fountain pens, and I wrote a review of it at my blog, too.  BlueDew Flex Fountain Pen Review. It is a lovely pen, feels a lot like a dip pen (untipped), and the hairlines are very fine, but it has a very delicate nib, and you have to be very careful with it, not to spring the nib. So, the Himalaya is my personal favorite between the two, for that reason. Plus, the BlueDew is quite a bit more expensive. Lovely pen, though. (I also don't get any commission if you buy one of those.) 

I hope this helps a little bit. I'm a little obsessed with using a flex fountain pen these days, so I've spent some time with it!

 

Pam

website: https://anartfulmom.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anartfulmompam/

[ParramattaPaul]

I'll just leave this here:  Calligraphy Starter Kit   I believe Amazon amongst others carry it.

 

[inkstainedruth]

There are other brands that also make calligraphy sets.  I have a very nice one in a metal box from Parker: a Vector and four italic nib units that I got a few years ago on eBay, and a Sheaffer No Nonsense set with three nib units (also italic) that I picked up at a local estate sale company's warehouse sale (the place sometimes combines sales in their website, and I think sometimes ends up with stuff from clearing out places that don't sell at the initial sale).  Both came with cartridges; the Vector set also came with a converter for the pen as well as the cartridges).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[dftr]

Just to add, there are version like business hand/palmer which could be written w a fine or xf nib and doesnt need shading. I also saw a nice demonstration of la ronde (montblanc video) with monoline and no special nibs. 
 

No need to limit calligraphy to those w dedicated pens. 

[txomsy]

I concur. In answer to the OP who asked about an ordinary pen: calligraphy is about beautiful writing, not about shades, thins, thicks, or whatnot. What makes handwriting beautiful is consistency and regularity, to start with. Harmonious proportions (which vary according to taste and script) do also apply. Whether there is or not any line variation is moot, just another embellishment, but not essential.

 

Just try to make your writing "beautiful" for whatever definition of beautiful you decide. Do not follow others, take them as inspirational examples, and go ahead. It is not the tool that matters, no matter what anyone says, but the feeling you transmit.