Disposable Fountain Pens - Clabby - Review

[Licue]

16 minutes ago, mke said:

Perhaps we shouldn't use the terms "eco or so" for fountain pens. FPs are not better than ball-pens or mechanical pencils if we really would look at the ecological footprint. 

Additionally, we have so many of them.

Are there any official studies/calculations?

I think writing with FPs could theoretically have a smaller ecological footprint than ballpoins etc., if it was 1 fountain pen + 1 ink (or maybe even 1-3 FPs and 1-3 ink colors).

But yeah, with dozens or hundreds of FPs and a similar number of inks from all the corners of the world certainly not.

[mke]

3 minutes ago, Licue said:

Are there any official studies/calculations?

Probably there are but I haven't seen one.

 

Look at the 4 pens on the left: mechanical pencil, rollerball, ballpen and fountain pen.

I am sure they all have the same footprint, not determined by the refills/inks. 

 

[txomsy]

As long as you can refill. When you can't, each instrument used goes to the waste. When you can refill, each BP/RB refilling container goes to the waste. With FPs, each cartridge used and disposed goes to the waste... but if you use a piston filler, a converter or refill a couple of cartridges, then only the bottle goes to the waste once in a longer time. Plastic has a much larger footprint than crystal.

 

In the picture above, try to picture the number of BICs equivalent to the times you refilled those pens and put them side by side. It was disposable pens we were commenting on.

 

So, with disposable instruments (but for graphite+wood pencils), you get the worst case scenario: dispose of the full instrument. With refillable BP/RB/(FP+cartridges) you get an intermediate scenario: you only dispose of the recharge recipient. With refillable FPs (piston, converter, refilled cartridges) or refillable ink containers, you get the lowest footprint, and among these, plastic is less recyclable than crystal and bigger bottles would have a smaller footprint (generally speaking, there are always exceptions).

 

OTOH, my point was not justthat one is more eco than the other, but that given the option, at similar prices, between a disposable FP and a refillable piston-filler (or C/C) FP, the later poses some advantages (more eco-friendly, refillable, longer use and choice of colors, wider design options, wider choice of nibs†...), and if you do not care about losing/damaging/breaking a 1$ disposable FP, you shouldn't either with a 1$ piston-filler/converter filler FP.

 

That's why I do not see the point: given two options at the same price, one with more limitations than the other, for me there is no choice.

 

† If I remember well, but memory may fail me, Dollar pens -for istance- were available in various finishes and with various nibs as well.

[Licue]

1 hour ago, mke said:

 

Look at the 4 pens on the left: mechanical pencil, rollerball, ballpen and fountain pen.

I am sure they all have the same footprint, not determined by the refills/inks. 

 

Yes, the pens themselves should have about the same footprint, maybe even somewhat higher for the fountain pen due to nib and filling mechanism.

 

But why do you exclude the ecological costs for refilling? (Do you even? - I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly here 🤔)

Considering the pens themselves can easily last for decades, the refills are what matters imo. And for the same amount of writing I think bottled ink -or probably even cartridges- has a better eco footprint than ballpoint or rollerball refills.

[Licue]

51 minutes ago, txomsy said:

OTOH, my point was not justthat one is more eco than the other, but that given the option, at similar prices, between a disposable FP and a refillable piston-filler (or C/C) FP, the later poses some advantages (more eco-friendly, refillable, longer use and choice of colors, wider design options, wider choice of nibs†...), and if you do not care about losing/damaging/breaking a 1$ disposable FP, you shouldn't either with a 1$ piston-filler/converter filler FP.

 

That's why I do not see the point: given two options at the same price, one with more limitations than the other, for me there is no choice.

Maybe people (outside of FPN and similar forums) are not aware of the availability of cheap refillable fountain pen?

 

Or maybe they just don't want to bother with refilling a pen?

 

Or maybe disposable fountain pens actually do have some advantages?

For example I've read that the Pilot's Varsity does pretty well when it comes to protection from evaporation. I can't really say the same for most of the cheaper fountain pens I have and had - some were ok or even pretty good, but a lot were problematic in that regard.

 

 

(Btw: I hope this doesn't sound too much like a defense of disposable fountain pens. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't really like them/their concept either.)

[txomsy]

4 hours ago, Licue said:

But why do you exclude the ecological costs for refilling? (Do you even? - I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly here

 

That's why I say that disposing of cartridges also has a higher footprint (and a higher cost) than refilling from a bottle. The bottle itself also has a cost, but if plastic, it will be much less than the equivalent amount of cartridges and if crystal, it is arguably recyclable and less contaminant.

 

But, hey, I'm not an environmental scientist and this is only my gut feeling, a gross opinion, and I may really be wrong. Though, regarding costs and variety, I doubt it.

[Geslina]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:19 AM, mke said:

Thank you for sharing this news, but (two buts):

* not much cheaper than a Platinum Preppy, Pilot Petit or any other Chinese low-priced demonstrator.

* I find these cheap pens boring. Accepted, they write OK - but that's all. I have so many nice pens which are better (and more expensive) why should I not use these pens and go several levels down to write with these cheapys?

 

(Sorry for bitching.)

 

Perhaps we shouldn't use the terms "eco or so" for fountain pens. FPs are not better than ball-pens or mechanical pencils if we really would look at the ecological footprint. 

Additionally, we have so many of them.

Agreed.  I bought a few Platinum Preppy pens when I first started buying fountain pens, figuring I’d use them at work, where a dropped or lost/stolen pen wouldn’t be such a big issue.  They write ok, but I find that a capless retractable pen is most convenient for me at work.  I just have to be very careful not to drop my pen or leave it anywhere.  But why do you think fountain pens aren’t a more eco friendly choice?  Since I started using them, I rarely buy other pens.  I probably went thru 3 to 5 Zebra Sarasa or Uniball Signo pens a month. I would buy refills for them, but still bought the pens themselves pretty frequently. (I love the look of a new pen, plus I would lose them regularly)  Now, it’s been almost two years with one Pilot Decimo and two 50 ml bottles of Sailor black and blue black ink - both bottles still are at least 1/3 full.  I refill Pilot cartridges with the one syringe I’ve also had for about two years. I have had to replace the nib on the Decimo a few times after dropping the pen with the nib extended, but I’ve learned to be more conscious about clicking the pen closed when I’m done writing and putting it right back into my pocket.  So in my case, I’m definitely buying way less disposable pens.  And, in two years time, I still have maybe only 20 fountain pens, so I’m not a big “collector.” (Surprising to me, because usually when I get interested in something, I go crazy having to have every size, color, model,etc) 

[amberleadavis]

@A Smug Dill I think we are looking at a wick.

[austollie]

Many years ago, I bought a bunch of cheap and cheerful FPs for one Australian dollar (about 70 US cents) a piece.  These were of the same quality as single use FPs (and use a wick system), except they did come with a cartridge that could be changed.

 

I found (and continue to find) these cheap disposable (in the sense that I don't really care if I lose them) really useful for travelling.  They write surprisingly well.  I used one with red ink as my regular mark-up pen with red ink (at the time, I used to mark up a lot of text) for more than a year, until the cap broke.  Ironically, notwithstanding that the nib was marked "Iridium", the nib had worn down in that time, i.e. the tip was not made of Iridium.

 

In my view disposable FPs (whether single use or refillable, like the ones that I have) have their place.  

[amberleadavis]

On 3/11/2022 at 1:43 AM, Licue said:

But yeah, with dozens or hundreds of FPs and a similar number of inks from all the corners of the world certainly not.

 

You think that before I had hundreds of FPs I didn't have thousands of BPs and RBs?

 

. And I mean this in the sweetest way possible.  I LOVE pens.  Especially ones that have sparkly ink. I love markers and broad ball points and space pens and and and but since I've really found the FPs that I adore, I buy a lot fewer pens.

 

 

On 3/11/2022 at 3:14 AM, txomsy said:

That's why I do not see the point: given two options at the same price, one with more limitations than the other, for me there is no choice.

 

† If I remember well, but memory may fail me, Dollar pens -for istance- were available in various finishes and with various nibs as well.

 

The dollar pens were better for eco friendly and color, but 1. they leaked and 2 they dried out. For me they were unusable even in an office and worthless for taking out in the world.

 

On 3/11/2022 at 4:19 AM, Licue said:

Or maybe disposable fountain pens actually do have some advantages?

For example I've read that the Pilot's Varsity does pretty well when it comes to protection from evaporation. I can't really say the same for most of the cheaper fountain pens I have and had - some were ok or even pretty good, but a lot were problematic in that regard.

 

 

Yes, the disposables have some advantages.  See above about leaking and not drying out, but they are also fairly break resistant and they don't get ink in the cap like regular fountain pens do.

[Licue]

5 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

 

You think that before I had hundreds of FPs I didn't have thousands of BPs and RBs?

 

. And I mean this in the sweetest way possible.  I LOVE pens.  Especially ones that have sparkly ink. I love markers and broad ball points and space pens and and and but since I've really found the FPs that I adore, I buy a lot fewer pens.

Well, I don't/didn't know, but am not particularly surprised 😉

 

For me outside/before fountain pens I did have some fondness of pens and stationery and bought a bit more than needed, but it was NEVER as bad as it is now with fountain pens (and ink) 😉

 

 

5 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

The dollar pens were better for eco friendly and color, but 1. they leaked and 2 they dried out. For me they were unusable even in an office and worthless for taking out in the world.

I have only one Dollar FP and I didn't find it a reliable pen either, unfortunately - dries out rather quickly and lately started leaking at the piston 😐

 

 

5 hours ago, amberleadavis said:

Yes, the disposables have some advantages.  See above about leaking and not drying out, but they are also fairly break resistant and they don't get ink in the cap like regular fountain pens do.

Considering they are basically eyedroppers and therefor carry quite a bit of ink, I sure hope they have good break resistance.

 

Their protection against drying out, is what fascinates me most about them tho, as drying out is one of my main annoyances with some (/quite a few) of my fountain pens. I don't understand why manufacturers can produce very cheap disposable FPs that do so well in that regard and at the same tine many medium or even medium-high priced fountain pens don't 😫😒

 

[amberleadavis]

10 hours ago, Licue said:

 

Their protection against drying out, is what fascinates me most about them tho, as drying out is one of my main annoyances with some (/quite a few) of my fountain pens. I don't understand why manufacturers can produce very cheap disposable FPs that do so well in that regard and at the same tine many medium or even medium-high priced fountain pens don't 😫😒

 

 

 

The Varsity is fabulous for not drying out.  These would dry when left uncapped but would start right up again.

[Mercian]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:47 AM, Licue said:

I don't understand why manufacturers can produce very cheap disposable FPs that do so well in that regard and at the same tine many medium or even medium-high priced fountain pens don't

With my ‘Professional Cynic’ hat on, I would regard this as a ‘nudge’ to customers to encourage them to keep on buying disposable pens (i.e. to keep giving the company more of their money), instead of making only a one-off purchase of a single re-usable pen.

 

In the same vein as only making c/c pens with proprietary cartridges. The point of that is to create ‘vendor lock-in’ and therefore an ongoing continual revenue-stream for the manufacturer, as opposed to achieving only the sale of a single pen that can subsequently be used with inks that were made by other companies.

[A Smug Dill]

9 minutes ago, Mercian said:

In the same vein as only making c/c pens with proprietary cartridges.

 

There is no industry standard that is formally agreed to and/or adopted by a consortium of either the majority of pen manufacturers worldwide, or just the ones that sell the most units — which will probably be over-represented by Platinum and Lamy, on account of the Preppy and Safari pen models, and possibly some Chinese brand(s) — or generates the most sales revenue, or has the most number of users.

 

There is no ISO technical standard for such, either.

 

Unless and until the more pedestrian Western brands concede the so-called “international standard” for converters and cartridges, which the numerous Chinese and Japanese brands, as well as well-established Western brands such as Aurora, Parker, and Lamy, do not use, there is no hope of achieving a common format that is not “proprietary”. I don’t think it means Diplomat, Graf von Faber-Castell, and Pelikan has to adopt one of the formats used today by the aforementioned brands, but to me ”the least” that is required is for every manufacturer to depart from the status quo, and adopt a brand new agreed standard that causes maximum pain for everyone, instead of (say) the Aurora, Parker, Lamy, and Chinese brands such as HongDian and PenBBS first finding common ground between themselves with a refined and more tightly specified 3.4mm-bore format, then for other big name players such as Pilot, Platinum, Sailor, Pelikan, Faber-Castell, Diplomat, etc. to fall in line, finally dragging all the small players that use JoWo-made and Bock-made nib units with them.

 

JoWo and Bock do not set the standard for anything in the industry (not even the definition of what is a #6 sized nib), so going with what would fit the nib units they make and sell is not the answer for The Hobby globally.

 

[Mercian]

4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

There is no industry standard that is formally agreed to…

Indeed not, but before the current, globalised-market, era of ‘your purchase is only one click away!!!’, there were many manufacturers in Europe who made pens that are compatible with the cartridges that are known (whether accurately or not) as ‘International Standard’.

I would also underline the fact that the name by which those cartridges are known is not ‘Universal Standard’.

 

Even in that era, there were still several manufacturers in Europe who chose to instead manufacture pens that will ONLY accept their own, proprietary, cartridges.

Aurora gambled slightly differently, by choosing to copy Parker’s proprietary cartridge format, instead of copying the ‘International Standard’ format.

 

In the USA, each major pen manufacturer created its own proprietary cartridge format.

 

In Japan, each of the ‘Big Three’ created its own proprietary cartridge format.

 

My belief is that each of those companies chose to do that for the reasons that I explained in the post of mine to which you replied.

 

Do you think that their decision to create their own proprietary cartridge format was motivated by any other reason?

If you do believe such a thing, I would be grateful if you would share that reason with me.

[A Smug Dill]

On 3/19/2022 at 3:43 AM, Mercian said:

Do you think that their decision to create their own proprietary cartridge format was motivated by any other reason?

If you do believe such a thing, I would be grateful if you would share that reason with me.

 

I strongly believe the primary reason is quite simple: if a self-respecting manufacturer has what it thinks is a viable and competitive product, which it does not merely source from other companies and rebrand, and that will sell well without appealing to the idea of compatibility with other products on the market as a selling point, then it is worth more to not voluntarily take on the role of a follower, and not allow the format specifications to be dictated to oneself — not by whoever came before or started earlier in the market, and not by whoever (or whichever format) is the incumbent with the largest market share.

 

This is simply no advantage to the company to play nice, and benefit to the consumer if allowing maximum flexibility or freedom to pick and choose is not a priority, especially if it does not translate to profit or strategic advantage (that, among other things, may lead to market dominance and/or driving competitors out).

 

If someone wants a standard, they can propose that to be a new guiding principle for the industry, then consult and/or negotiate with the self-respecting manufacturer, such that it is in a position of (being party to) driving what is going to be the new standard, instead of passively accepting something someone else has already done.

 

That “international” standard to which you referred has not been agreed to by manufacturers in Italy (see Aurora), Germany (Lamy), US (Parker), Japan (all “Big Three”), China (all of them). If it isn’t even a national standard in two separate countries, then it isn’t an international standard. What may have been common in the UK, and adopted by a few non-dominant players in other (Western) countries in the market back in the day, does not make it anything more than a pretension of being an international standard.

[austollie]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

This is simply no advantage to the company to play nice,

 

But alas, that statement is true for larger manufacturers that have the market power to impose their own proprietary cartridge.  It is more difficult for new entrants to try to bring out a proprietary cartridge, which is why you see the Europeans ones use the standard international cartridge (which I accept is not a formal standard).

 

For me, the maker that had the most chutzpah when it comes to proprietary cartridges was GeHA.  Operating in Germany in the 1970s, where the international cartridge was almost universally used, it developed its own double-ended cartridge.  That way its proprietary cartridge could be used in any other pen, but a standard international cartridge could not be used in a GeHa pen (although, by coincidence, the thin end of a Lamy cartridge works in a GeHa).

[Licue]

I don't know if the badly-sealing-cap problem is really all that comparable to the various-types-of-cartridges "problem".

As indicated by the "", I don't necessarily regard the latter to even be a real problem. While rare or discontinued cartridge types can be a bit of a PITA to find (or to substitute) sometimes, I actually kinda like having a variety of cartridges - I do not wish that all my fountain pens would use the same type of cartridge. (btw, for the people who do, which type would that be?)

 

However, I sure do wish all of my fountain pen's caps would seal well - or at least decently...

 

[A Smug Dill]

16 minutes ago, Licue said:

However, I sure do wish all of my fountain pen's caps would seal well - or at least decently...

 

“So say we all.”  

[AmandaW]

1 hour ago, Licue said:

I sure do wish all of my fountain pen's caps would seal well - or at least decently...

 

I have my fountain pens roughly divided into two groups: summer pens and winter pens because the dry half of the year here is really dry.

 

During the dry times the most reliable are Platinum, TWSBI, higher end Pilot, Pilot Parallels, Rotring ArtPens, Pelikan, Opus 88 and Kaweco.

 

The arrival of misty autumn mornings says it's time for the others to come out to play: Lamy Safari etc, Pilot Metropolitan, Prera, Kakuno and Sailor.

 

It took time and record keeping to sort them out and I do look forward to change of season.