Help with identifying this Sailor Pro Gear Slim

[womble21]

Does anyone know the name or model number for this particular Sailor Pro Gear Slim?

 

It has a silver-coloured guilloche pattern on the barrel and cap, with a single cap band that reaches all the way to the bottom of the cap, as opposed to a two-part cap band found on regular PGS variants.

 

I couldn't find anything on this pen on any of Sailor's websites, so I'd be very much obliged to anyone who can share more information on it.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, womble21 said:

Does anyone know the name or model number for this particular Sailor Pro Gear Slim?

 

Is this a trick question?

 

Sailor Professional Gear Slim models all have the same dimensions and geometry. This isn't a Sailor PGS.

 

There are other Sailor products that are fitted with the same type of nibs that go into the PGS; for example, most Profit Standard models (except the ones fitted with ‘medium-sized’ 21K gold nibs), and the now-discontinued Promenade line. Flat ends alone do not a PGS model make.

 

I have three other Sailor pens that have the same shape and structure as the pen shown, and they aren't PGS models.

 

[womble21]

Yes, I did assume it was a Pro Gear because of the flat ends, and that it was the Slim variant due to the 14k nib. Thank you for the correction. Would you be able to tell me what line those other three pens are from?

[A Smug Dill]

Sailor Koshu-Inden (Sayagata and Kozakura)

Sailor Kabazaiku

 

…

 

Wancher's Japan Blue fountain pen, which was made by Sailor, is also of the same general design.

 

[awa54]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Is this a trick question?

 

....

 

 

 

Is this a shaming?

 

I know it's hard for you to believe that some people don't share your encyclopedic knowledge of Japanese pen lore, but that doesn't mean you should rub their noses in it.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

Is this a shaming?

 

Hardly. If someone has jumped to the wrong conclusion and/or presupposition, then before they can possibly come to the correct answer, they must first become aware that they were wrong and backtrack to where it's possible to proceed. The question was asked in the open, and so the response that gets them to look again and (if they so choose) backtrack should also be given in the open.

 

Would you have preferred me to word it as, “WRONG!”?

 

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

but that doesn't mean you should rub their noses in it.

 

I agree. If the O.P. had insisted that he/she wasn't wrong, then there would have been no need to say more, but to simply withdraw and let him/her work it out (or not) taking as long as it takes, without further help or hindrance, either in the open or in private.

 

[Paul-in-SF]

44 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

Would you have preferred me to word it as, “WRONG!”?

 

Do you really think your original version is better? You could, in fact, have left out that line completely and it would have detracted nothing from the otherwise useful information in your post, including that the subject pen is not a Sailor PGS.

 

The only thing that first line adds is to display your self-satisfaction in your superior knowledge of this particular niche, and your glee in finding another mistake that you can point out. 

 

 

 

 

[awa54]

Calling people out for their lack of knowledge isn't considered polite in most social situations. It can also be a discouragement to them asking questions in the future, which isn't what most of us want here on FPN.

 

Just sayin'

 

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, awa54 said:

Calling people out for their lack of knowledge isn't considered polite in most social situations.

 

Treating others the way I want to be treated is the principle I follow. If I'm factually incorrect, if I've been misinformed, if the logic I applied in the execution of a task or solution of a problem is flawed, then I'd want that to be pointed out to me, with or even without a ‘helpful’ correction, as directly and as quickly as possible. It's how I learn, and it works great for people like me, who in spite of having an ego do not suffer from discomfort with others seeing that I was mistaken or in error. I'm wrong often, and I've admitted to that in the open often, if my mistake was already there for all to see irrespective of whether I admit it. The quicker I have to backtrack and change tact when I'm in error, the fasterI learn and progress.

 

5 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

Do you really think your original version is better?

 

Yes, in fact I do.

 

5 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

You could, in fact, have left out that line completely and it would have detracted nothing from the otherwise useful information in your post, including that the subject pen is not a Sailor PGS.

 

I could. But it's not about formulating and offering the best response I could give from any other user's perspective, including how it is couched; I'm not practising professional or clinical consultancy here, and I'm not responding to clients, where what I gain in exchange for offering information or assistance depends on repeat custom.

 

I'm here to learn and participate, and I expect other members are too; and so I'm going to approach it the way I do, and treat others how I want to be treated.

 

Some of you may see all interactions with one's peers with a service mentality. That's your prerogative, and I respect that (prerogative); I think you ought to do as you see best, without obliging others to treat it as some sort of standard to adopt. I'm not here to serve, and I don't see a forum as a crowdsourced, free information service powered by volunteer staff. I see it more as walking into a dojo as either a student or a practitioner, to learn or to participate, and not just watching videos of someone else practising or demonstrating martial arts. I expect the experience to be intense, and rewarding in the breadth and depth of both knowledge and skill that is gained, with lots of moments that are jarring to one's senses. It doesn't oblige others from treating me the way I treat others to facilitate rapid learning — and one shouldn't stop learning; I know I'd get bored).

 

People with different learning styles will benefit from different styles of guidance, and in the absence of a hierarchical relationship structure and regimented instruction, one will be exposed to many styles; it's up to the individual equal member to extract as much value from each, when growth in one's knowledge within the domain is the key objective. Yes, asking a technical question and/or for factual information is implicitly an attempt to grow one's body of knowledge. I'm not here to make friends, which sometimes happen along the way; I'm here to learn, and to give back in kind.

 

[awa54]

The only Dojo I've been a student in emphasized that we are ALL students (at least the ones who truly wish to learn and strive to keep learning) and that part of the learner's mind is being humble and kind to your fellow practitioners, with an unspoken suggestion that these principals could be applied to ones everyday life struggles just as effectively as they could on the mat.

 

I see the act of flexing on a new member as a sign of insecurity or cruelty, not strength or wisdom.

[A Smug Dill]

35 minutes ago, awa54 said:

The only Dojo I've been a student in emphasized that we are ALL students (at least the ones who truly wish to learn and strive to keep learning) and that part of the learner's mind is being humble and kind to your fellow practitioners,

 

I've trained in four different disciplines (and more dojos than that number) in my younger days, and being kind was never part of the teachings. Pursuit of excellence, single-focused effectiveness, and resilience in the face of challenges in the learning process on the other hand, were. Make a wrong move on the dojo floor, and the quickest way to learn is to be shown it doesn't work well, by someone getting through your defences and landing sufficient impact to be noticed to prove the point, irrespective of one's level of experience or standing in the group. (There was no rule and no convention against landing punches on one's instructors, even if you want to look specifically at uneven relationship dynamics.) Those who stayed the course all got on just fine that way.

 

The acquisition and use of fountain pens as a hobby is just another individual pursuit, for which learning is greatly facilitated by continual interaction with a great many other practitioners, but gentle hand-holding on the journey is not necessary.

 

p.s.

35 minutes ago, awa54 said:

I see the act of flexing on a new member as a sign of insecurity or cruelty, not strength or wisdom.

 

Just because someone has signed up for a new account on FPN, it doesn't automatically follow that he/she is a newbie in the hobby. I don't assume someone doesn't already have years of training in martial arts if they sign up with a dojo, or even wears a white belt on Day One; for all I know, he/she could have a black belt in some other discipline already. Perhaps you don't think it's disrespectful to assume someone fresh to a club or organisation has no domain knowledge, but I do.

 

[awa54]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I've trained in four different disciplines (and more dojos than that number) in my younger days, and being kind was never part of the teachings. Pursuit of excellence, single-focused effectiveness, and resilience in the face of challenges in the learning process on the other hand, were. Make a wrong move on the dojo floor, and the quickest way to learn is to be shown it doesn't work well, by someone getting through your defences and landing sufficient impact to be noticed to prove the point, irrespective of one's level of experience or standing in the group. (There was no rule and no convention against landing punches on one's instructors, even if you want to look specifically at uneven relationship dynamics.) Those who stayed the course all got on just fine that way.

 

The acquisition and use of fountain pens as a hobby is just another individual pursuit, for which learning is greatly facilitated by continual interaction with a great many other practitioners, but gentle hand-holding on the journey is not necessary.

 

 

I'll assume from that statement that you've never practiced Aikido.

Kindness on the mat doesn't preclude teaching or learning techniques "the hard way" it exists in the generosity of spirit that accompanies the experience.

These ideals are inferred by me from the teachings of Henry Kono, who was Sensei to my first Sensei. 

If you don't at least trust your Dojo mates implicitly on the mat, if you hold secrets so you can gain advantage, if you strive to "win" while practicing, if you feel anger or envy while you're in the Dojo, then everyone is affected by that selfishness of spirit.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I see it more as walking into a dojo as either a student or a practitioner, to learn or to participate

 

In my view, if you step onto the mat as a "practitioner" and not a "student", then you've stopped progressing in your chosen art.

Any Sensei worth following should gladly admit that they have not attained and never will attain full mastery and that they learn new aspects of their techniques every day, sometimes even from their interactions with students.

 

 

 

Back to pens and the FPN forum...

 

A small though experiment:

If you're in error, do you learn more from the experience of being corrected when the error is pointed out to you in harsh terms and in a public setting?

How does that make you feel?

Think carefully and tell us why you believe that the act of gaining and dispensing knowledge (outside of business dealings of course) is an adversarial or transactional process?

 

[Paul-in-SF]

4 minutes ago, awa54 said:

How does that make you feel?

 

Assumes facts not in evidence. I don't think you'll get far with that approach, sadly. But best of luck. 

 

Now that we have been told that we are in a battle zone where we need to keep our defenses up, rather than a friendly community of sharing, I think the moderators should consider a pinned post to that effect in Introductions, to warn new members. 

[awa54]

1 hour ago, awa54 said:

The only Dojo I've been a student in ....

 

The "only" Dojo, was actually four separate iterations of location, students and *official* Sensei, however each instance was thoroughly enmeshed with the others, to the point that it felt like one continuous experience.

My separated right shoulder and competing life pursuits have conspired to keep me off the mat for some time now, but there isn't a day when I don't feel the influence of those experiences in my life.

 

Arigato Gozaimashita, my Aikido family.

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

37 minutes ago, awa54 said:

If you're in error, do you learn more from the experience of being corrected when the error is pointed out to you in harsh terms and in a public setting?

 

It doesn't really matter to me. I don't need to be shielded by others' goodwill from loss of face as a consequence of my own mistakes. If I cannot overcome my own adverse emotional response to being in error and then seen by others to be so, that is not a problem that anyone else ought to accommodate or work around, unless they have some ulterior motive (that may be honourable or otherwise).

 

37 minutes ago, awa54 said:

How does that make you feel?

 

Frustrated that I made another mistake, perhaps. If I don't like being seen to be wrong, then the way to prevent that is to avoid being wrong (at whatever alternative cost, including forgoing opportunities where there is also some risk), instead of expecting others to overlook my errors.

 

37 minutes ago, awa54 said:

Think carefully and tell us …

 

I'll humour you this time, even though you're in no position to demand that response, and I read what you wrote as a demand in the way you wrote it.

 

37 minutes ago, awa54 said:

… why you believe that the act of gaining and dispensing knowledge (outside of business dealings of course) is an adversarial or transactional process?

 

It's no more adversarial or transactional than climbing a rock face and trying to get somewhere — to the top, or just a ledge on which to rest before attempting the next segment. Gaining knowledge, in the context of adult learning, is an individual pursuit, and everything else, living or inanimate, is just part of the environment. Neither that jagged piece of rock, nor the plant growing out of a crack, nor the ants and spiders in that habitat are obliged to extend goodwill to oneself, but they can be helpful or useful to one's ascent if one knows how to utilise or leverage each object. A piece of rock could break your skin if you grab it the ‘wrong’ way, or could bear your weight momentarily so that you could gain purchase and move another step towards your goal; it's up to you to gauge, and not for the piece of rock to intentionally give you a leg up. That's what I want everyone to be — and see themselves as — individuals pursuing their similar goals in parallel, at their own pace and to their chosen level of investment and exertion, who cannot rely on others in the learning environment behaving as if they were like-minded associates in one's company or parties with some active, perhaps benevolent or perhaps vested, interest in one's success.

 

[awa54]

Obviously, you're under no obligation to answer my request, in fact I wasn't really expecting a reply. Rather it was my way of hopefully getting you to focus back into why this thread has devolved from a discussion of Sailor pens, to one about communication and accommodation within a community.

Thank you for doing it though.

 

I think the difference between us is that you might fully utilize the advantages of each hand/foot hold along the climb so that you made the fastest/highest ascent, where I would first try to avoid tearing up the vegetation and stepping on the ants while choosing my route. 

This isn't a school, or a competition, most of us are here simply for the love of pens, ink and paper, new skills and learned history are just a portion of that whole 

Honestly, I feel like helping others to an appreciation of our shared hobby is the reward for what we do here.

[A Smug Dill]

25 minutes ago, awa54 said:

Rather it was my way of hopefully getting you to focus back into why this thread has devolved from a discussion of Sailor pens, to one about communication and accommodation within a community.

 

The O.P. asked a question. I answered, pointing out the error in the framing of the question, and explained why it was in error.

The O.P. then backtracked, and then asked a different question. I answered the second question quite succinctly, with what I believe to be factually correct information.

It was done.

Only after that did any devolvement occur, so perhaps if you want (me) to focus on why, then the fifth post in the thread is the starting point.

[awa54]

This forum is a place where membership carries certain responsibilities and one of them is to make some small attempt at cordiality with other forumites.

There's a simple way to reduce your evident discomfort with being challenged on your communication style: moderate your tone in forum posts...

 

You've stated your intent and asserted your right to communicate in whatever style you see fit, which is your prerogative.

I in my turn will exercise my right to continue to call you out when I see you verbally disrespecting those who you should rightfully consider compatriots.

 

 

 

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

Meanwhile, the OP has run off.   Can't say I blame him; I'd have thought this was a ProGear as well.

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, awa54 said:

There's a simple way to reduce your evident discomfort with being challenged on your communication style: moderate your tone in forum posts...

 

I find no discomfort in your causing such devolvement in discussion threads, as you put it. I can do this all day long. However, if you want to talk about why, then you were the why on this occasion. You were trying to assuage your apparent discomfort with how I answered someone else question with relevant information to how the question was worded, and decided to jump in. It's no problem for me if you want to turn this into a randori session.