Need suggestions for a water-resistant, dry ink which is easy to clean out

[SlowRain]

I just bought a Pilot Custom 823 <M>.  So far I've tried Pilot Black and Pilot Blue-Black in it.  I find it a little on the wet side (the Blue-Black does well in my Diplomat Aero <M>, though).  So I'm looking for a fairly water-resistant ink (some washing away is acceptable, just so long as something decently legible gets left behind) which won't gunk up a vac filler and which is a bit on the dry side so it won't feather and bleed the way the Pilot Namiki inks seem to be doing.  I'd just like something to tame this wet medium nib.  It's difficult to say what color I'd want, but I think brown would be a safe bet.  Recommendations for a manufacturer, one of their lines, or specific inks are most welcome.  Thanks!

 

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/6/2022 at 3:07 AM, SlowRain said:

It's difficult to say what color I'd want, but I think brown would be a safe bet.  Recommendations for a manufacturer, one of their lines, or specific inks are most welcome.

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Platinum Classic Ink Khaki Black.

[LizEF]

Rohrer & Klingner Salix might fit.  Also, the Rohrer & Klingner sketchINKs that I tried were on the dry side.

[SlowRain]

  On 2/6/2022 at 4:18 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

Platinum Classic Ink Khaki Black.

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Thanks.  This one seems to tick a lot of the boxes.  I can't say I'm super thrilled about the color, but I'll do some more research on it.

 

  On 2/6/2022 at 5:00 AM, LizEF said:

Rohrer & Klingner Salix might fit.  Also, the Rohrer & Klingner sketchINKs that I tried were on the dry side.

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Hi, Liz.  Funny meeting you over here.  I've tried SketchINK Carmen in my Diplomat Aero, and I thought it gunked up the feed a bit even though I was using it quite regularly.  Beautiful ink, though.  I'm thinking of trying it in my Laban Antique II because it's a wetter pen.

[SlowRain]

If a dry, water-resistant brown ink is proving a challenge, I can consider other colors as well.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/6/2022 at 3:07 AM, SlowRain said:

… won't gunk up a vac filler and which is a bit on the dry side so it won't feather and bleed the way the Pilot Namiki inks seem to be doing.  I'd just like something to tame this wet medium nib.

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Try Sailor Kiwaguro. Not a dry ink per se, but will help constrain the line width all the same.

[Carrau]

Although it may be a shipping problem outside the US, Birminghams Pen Co. Tattered Jute ink is a sepia-brown that is very water resistant and not overly saturated/difficult to clean.  I find it a less saturated version of Kobe #3 Old Foreigner’s Ward Sepia.  

[LizEF]

  On 2/6/2022 at 5:48 AM, SlowRain said:

Hi, Liz.  Funny meeting you over here.  I've tried SketchINK Carmen in my Diplomat Aero, and I thought it gunked up the feed a bit even though I was using it quite regularly.  Beautiful ink, though.  I'm thinking of trying it in my Laban Antique II because it's a wetter pen.

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  The sketchINKs, really all permanent inks, need a pen that seals well to prevent evaporation.  But these I found to dry on the nib very quickly, so it's even more important.

 

Forgot to mention, IMO, "water-resistant" and "easy to clean out" are a contradiction in terms depending on your definition off "easy" and exactly how water-resistant you want it...

 

Also, the other Platinum Classic inks (all iron gall) might fit your needs, if one of the other colors suit.

 

PS: Sorry, I missed the "brown" request.  That's a tough one for me - zero experience there.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/6/2022 at 3:01 PM, LizEF said:

Forgot to mention, IMO, "water-resistant" and "easy to clean out" are a contradiction in terms depending on your definition off "easy" and exactly how water-resistant you want it...

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There's always the possibility that water-resistance is caused by irreversible reaction of one of the components, that is otherwise inert against plastic and/or metal, in the ink with something in the paper and making its mark. Iron-gall and cellulose-reactive dyes, for example. However, @SlowRain has replied in another thread that he doesn't want something that could prospectively burn or ‘eat’ through the paper in time, and is wary of using iron-gall ink.

 

[squirrels]

While I haven't tried Khaki Black or Sepia Black, I would recommend trying a sample of one or the other, as Platinum Classic Forest Black is both very water resistant and easy to clean out, and pretty resistant to spreading. It does depend on how water resistant you need it to be. Forest Black bleeds some yellow when it gets wet, but the text is completely readable. Here's a sample from a medium-wet fine nib on Ampad notebook paper (not actually horrible quality paper, but definitely something where I prefer to use an extra fine, these days), with coffee spilled over it:

 

 

I used this ink for a really long time in a Charlie Pen without periodic flushing and was able to get it all out without too much difficulty in the end (though I don't remember the details, really). For shorter periods of time, I can get it out with only tap water pretty effortlessly. Theoretically, iron gall inks are prone to precipitating over time and can leave crud on things, but I have not yet had that issue. If you do, reportedly (by the guy who designed the Platinum Classic inks and also Konrad of KWZ), a solution of ascorbic acid in water is extremely effective at getting rid of this.

 

As far as actual browns go, I was recently fairly impressed by J. Herbin Lie de Thé. It seems to have a pretty robust waterproof component, and the brand has a reputation for being easy to clean, but I haven't used this ink for very long periods, so I can't really say for sure that it's easy to clean (No cleaning issues if only inked for a short time, but that's true of most inks). It resists spreading decently well, AFAICT, though I would hesistate to call it dry, just because people mean very different things when they use that term. Here is a waterproofness sample done with a water brush, with the water soaked up to get it to try faster:

 

IME, a waterbrush is usually a little bit worse than an actual spill. For this sample, I was using that same Ampad notebook paper, but with a finer nib, in this case.

Edited February 6, 2022 by squirrels
Confusing one ink for another, wording

[LizEF]

  On 2/6/2022 at 4:56 PM, A Smug Dill said:

There's always the possibility that water-resistance is caused by irreversible reaction of one of the components, that is otherwise inert against plastic and/or metal, in the ink with something in the paper and making its mark. Iron-gall and cellulose-reactive dyes, for example.

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True.  I'd say these are a small subset, and I can't say I have experience with them - I think Noodler's are the only ones who advertise it (that I've seen).

[SlowRain]

  On 2/6/2022 at 4:56 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

SlowRain has replied in another thread that he doesn't want something that could prospectively burn or ‘eat’ through the paper in time, and is wary of using iron-gall ink.

 

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This is true.  Sorry for not mentioning that sooner in this thread.  I'm sort of discussing this in two different places, but I'll try to stick to this one.

 

I used the term water-resistant instead of waterproof because I'm led to believe "waterproof" is more rigorous and exact, whereas "water-resistant" has varying degrees.  Certainly the picture above of the Platinum Classic Forest Black is more than acceptable, but I'm still reluctant because I'd like my project to be legible a few decades out for my niece and nephew to still be able to read.  The level of water-resistance shown in the Lie de Thé example could work, but I'd need to look at more reviews.  The problem is, it is apparently a wet ink.

 

Which leads to what the definitions of "wet" and "dry" mean to different people.  I'm by no means an expert on pens and inks, in case you haven't already figured that out.  I'd like something that will come out of a Pilot Custom 823 <M> nib in a less exuberant manner than Pilot (Namiki) Black and Blue-Black.  As it stands, the experience with these two inks in this pen is like using Baystate Blue in anything above an <EF>!  The feathering and bleed-through are unacceptable, even on Rhodia 90gsm ivory paper.  (Although I hasten to add that I really enjoy the Blue-Black in my Diplomat Aero <M>, but that's a drier nib.) 

 

In general, I'd like something that can tame a wet nib, is water-resistant, and won't eat through the paper over time.  I initially posited brown as my preferred color, but I'm willing to expand out a bit.  It's possible the Platinum Classic inks, Lie de Thé, and R & K Salix may fit the bill, but there seems to be one question or another about them still in my mind.  Birminghams Pen Co. Tattered Jute isn't available locally, and Sailor Kiwa-guro is another black, which I already have enough of.  I'm not saying no to these just yet, and I do appreciate the suggestions, but these would be last resorts.

 

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/7/2022 at 12:15 AM, SlowRain said:

I'm not saying no to these just yet, and I do appreciate the suggestions, but these would be last resorts.

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Fair enough. All the same, the fundamental issue is that — as one would usually expect with this type of questions or quest — you're asking for candidates that fulfil certain critical or minimum performance characteristics, and so that's what we will suggest, without treating it as an exercise in finding what's ‘best’ (including but not limited to your subjective liking of the ink's colour and appearance, as well as price and ease of acquisition by retail where you are, never mind whether they will continue to be available when you need to replenish your supply); anything that ticks the boxes will do, even though conceivably your money could be ‘better’ spent, and/or the writing experience could be more enjoyable, should you choose something different from this eligible candidate ink or that one.

 

  On 2/7/2022 at 12:15 AM, SlowRain said:

I'd like something that will come out of a Pilot Custom 823 <M> nib in a less exuberant manner than Pilot (Namiki) Black and Blue-Black.  As it stands, the experience with these two inks in this pen is like using Baystate Blue in anything above an <EF>!

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Even with Pilot's reputation, and actual achievement, in excellent product quality and consistency, each pen could still be tuned (and/or have been tuned) differently in terms of ink flow. The only way to be certain what works for the unit you have on hand, in your own operating environment, is to test it.

 

I'm afraid wanting to avoid ‘the rigmarole’ (or cost, effort, and/or delay) of having to conduct a comparative study with hands-on experimentation is just not compatible with deciding what is ‘best’ for an application, instead of just accepting something ‘good enough’ and get on with the actual task of writing.

 

[SlowRain]

I have to agree with everything you've said.  I have received some excellent suggestions within the parameters of my request, within the frame of reference of the other users, and within the limits of overseas internet communication.  I want to thank people for that.

 

I usually ask for advice and suggestions first before I try anything like this on my own--and especially with a pen of this price--hence my post.  Unless I get any more replies, I'll pursue the Platinum Pigment Brun Sepia ink (mentioned in the other thread linked above) because I've heard elsewhere that it qualifies as a drier ink.  I can mix it with Carbon Black and Rose Red if needed, which I'm already comfortable doing.  If that doesn't work, I'll head back to the shop and see what the vendor can suggest.

 

EDIT: You mentioned Kiwaguro.  Would Souboku and Seiboku have a similar effect?

[LizEF]

  On 2/7/2022 at 1:09 AM, SlowRain said:

EDIT: You mentioned Kiwaguro.  Would Souboku and Seiboku have a similar effect?

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Obviously, I don't have your pen.  And I haven't used them in all that many pens, but I will say that Seiboku seems wetter to me than Souboku.  Souboku has been in my PenBBS 469 (2-sided eyedropper pen) for ages.  When one side finished, I cleaned it and filled the other side (just cuz).  This "other" side is drier than the first side, and I prefer the ink in the wetter nib.  I had no staining problems with it, but that's partially the material the body is made of, I think.  Happy to answer questions, if I can.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 2/7/2022 at 1:09 AM, SlowRain said:

EDIT: You mentioned Kiwaguro.  Would Souboku and Seiboku have a similar effect?

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Strange as it may sound, I don't think I've ever put Kiwaguro, Souboku, and Seiboku in the same pen (filling the reservoir properly, and not just dip-testing), so I don't have a ready answer for your question which others have asked on FPN before. I've even reviewed Souboku, when it first came out, but ink flow rate from reservoir through the feed to the nib and then onto the page is something I don't often talk about, unless something unusual was observed (e.g. with Sailor Shikiori Yodaki).

 

Kiwaguro is well-known for having the effect of constraining line widths, while I haven't really seen (that I can recall) anyone talk about Souboku or Seiboku doing the same thing.

[arcfide]

  On 2/7/2022 at 12:15 AM, SlowRain said:

In general, I'd like something that can tame a wet nib, is water-resistant, and won't eat through the paper over time.

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I want to assuage your fears a little bit. Based on your desire for a dry ink that is water resistant, you really are going to get some of the best range of colors and options by looking at IG inks, including Platinum's line of Classic (including Blue-Black) inks, KWZ IG inks, Diamine Registrar's, ESSRI, Pelikan Blue Black, and the like. Most of these inks are at the very least on the drier side of the spectrum, with many of them very dry. They all have above average water resistance for their colors. Pigmented inks tend to be at least a little wetter than IG because they generally need to keep the pigment in suspension somehow, and I find that most of the pigmented inks I've tried are definitely not the driest inks around (though some aren't exceptionally wet, either). 

 

Pigmented inks generally have the distinct advantage of retaining their color better under water. IG inks, when soaked, will shed their dye and all return to a light to dark grey color (some variety of pencil, if you will). So if color fidelity is important to you with water resistance, then pigmented inks have a good sales pitch. Moreover, IG inks in pens can't and don't include some of the things that can help increase the longevity of an IG ink in the face of UV light. All IG inks will eventually oxidize under UV exposure to a brown color and fade, whereas many of the pigmented inks are more UV resistant (only the carbon and a few of the bluer colors are really what might be deemed more or less UV-proof). 

 

However, I will hasten to point out that under the criteria you have given, even dye-based inks of a normal permanence will have more than ample staying power under dry and dark conditions to last well past the few decades that you indicated. I for instance, have samples of light blue inks, including I believe some Waterman Blue that are perfectly fine after decades, and Waterman Black that is like new after decades. The reality is that under normal storage conditions, many decades can pass before even slight effects are noted in the standard permanent colors, even among inks that are not water or UV resistant. When people talk about archival qualities, that really only matters under conditions of moisture or periods of time measured in multiple generations (50, 100, 200, 500 years). 

 

Pigmented inks have an advantage if they are going to be displayed constantly, or if you need color fidelity over time, or if you are concerned about multiple centuries of archivability. IG inks, however, are the current base standard for document proof inks that are expected to be kept in dark storage out of UV light. They are very well suited to this task. 

 

Finally, there is fear about IG inks eating through paper because in the past everyone used a different ink recipe and mixed their own under less than laboratory ideal conditions, often resulting in excess and unused acids sitting on the paper. They also used some interesting components for the acid base. However, with better understanding of stoichiometry, IG inks were formulated using better acids and better ratios to ensure stoichiometric balance in the inks, so even the typical IG ink of the dip pen era had much less chance of eating through paper. During that time one of the issues was that much of the paper was acidic, and so the combination of acidic ink and acidic paper lead to the entire system being fundamentally unstable. However, nowadays, most writing paper is pH neutral and alkaline buffered, so the paper will not degrade as rapidly through time, and commercially formulated IG inks that are safe for fountain pens are exceptionally well balanced and well-behaved both in the pen and on the paper. Combined with pH neutral paper, the concern about paper destruction due to the ink is basically a non-issue at this point. 

 

Frankly, most of the fear around IG inks these days is relatively unfounded, including eating away the paper over time. However, there is one issue that you need to be aware of and manage. If you have a large amount of IG ink in a pen (such as a large eyedropper) and you combine that with a pen that doesn't seal very well and you have significant amounts of air in the system (such as a mostly empty pen) and you leave that pen to sit unused for an extended period of time, you can get precipitation of the iron particles in the pen. This will form solid particles in the ink and can clog the pen. On the other hand, this is much the same concern you must be aware of with any ink with a high dye-content or with pigmented inks. If the ink dries out in the pen, you can get clogging. Pigmented ink is among the hardest to clean out of the pen and might not be possible to clean out without disassembly. Most dye-based inks that are water-soluble are easier to flush out but might require an extended soak. IG is somewhere in the middle, where you might need a specific solution specifically designed to reconstitute the IG particles or otherwise dissolve them in order to clear the block without disassembly and scrubbing. 

 

I should note that despite extremely long periods of disuse with some of my pens with a very good seal on them, they have written up the first time without issue even with IG ink in them. Thus, you should be aware of the potential issues, with all inks, but I wouldn't worry overmuch that an ink is IG. 

[SlowRain]

Thank you for all that information!  I hope this post shows up on Google search results for anyone else researching the topic because it's very informative.

 

Just to maybe clarify a bit.  I don't really need color fidelity; I just need something to stick around after an accidental spill.  It doesn't matter to me what color it is.  Lightfastness isn't an issue as what I'm working on will mostly be contained in notebooks and not out for open display.  It's more of a reference work. 

 

But here's something else I may be overly worried about.  I may not need a dry ink in the absolute sense.  I may be able to simply get away with something that is relatively drier/better-behaved than Pilot Namiki Black and Blue-Black.  I'm not the first person to use a Pilot Custom 823 <M>, but I'm one of the few that insist on at least medium water-resistance.  Maybe I should've simply asked what people have had success with in their own pens and left out the "dry ink" wording.

[carlos.q]

  On 2/6/2022 at 3:07 AM, SlowRain said:

So I'm looking for a fairly water-resistant ink (some washing away is acceptable, just so long as something decently legible gets left behind) which won't gunk up a vac filler and which is a bit on the dry side so it won't feather and bleed...

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My choice would be Pelikan 4001 Black or Blue-Black. 

[dipper]

On the subject of GUNKING-UP:

 

In a recent experiment a dozen black inks were painted onto a glazed china plate, left to dry for 24hrs, and then washed of with cold tap-water.

Increasing steps of agitation were applied, starting with lowering the plate slowly into still water, and ending by rubbing with a fingertip.

This is photo #6 in the sequence, simulating a pen "flush".

This test does not show water-resistance when ink is on paper. It shows water resistance when ink is dried on a hard gloss non-absorbent surface.

This test does not show all possible mechanisms of "gunking up". It does not show, for instance, how some pigmented inks can deposit a layer of pigment particles that cling to the inside of plastic feed capillary slots, despite the pen never having dried out.

 

Given those caveats, here are my results summarised:

 

Five inks that simply dissolved and floated away as a fuzzy black cloud when placed in still cold water:

Cross Black,

Waterman Intense Black,

Kaweco Pearl Black,

Graf von Faber-Castell Carbon Black (a dye-based ink, despite the name),

Diamine Jet Black.

 

One ink that maybe was unfairly treated in this one test. With very gently flowing water it did disappear completely:

Platinum Black.

 

Two inks that almost rinsed away under running water, but stubborn staining at edges of the original swatch patch remained visible and needed physical contact with a sliding fingertip to dissolve them:

Winsor & Newton Calligraphy Black (a pigment ink),

Sailor Black.

 

Two inks that showed some removal by running water, but over half the swatch remained firmly attached to the plate. When removed by physical contact with a fingertip the dry ink film broke into hundreds of little flakes and specks:

Rohrer & Klingner Documentus 700 Black,

DeAtramentis Document Ink Black.

 

Two inks that were entirely unaffected by running water. The swatch remained 100% firmly attached to the plate, with no observed trail of staining in the water. When removed by physical contact with a fingertip the dry ink film broke into hundreds of little flakes and specks:

Sailor Kiwaguro (Cartridge, 2021 manufacture),

Chinese Sumi stick-ink (ground from the solid black stick, on an inkstone with water).

 

You may doubt the Kiwaguro result. It is surprising! Could that have been a mistake somewhere in the preparation of the plate?

I am confident that particular ink was correctly applied. All name labels were written in Sharpy marker first. The Kiwaguro was applied with a Sailor Profit brush pen, loaded with a Kiwaguro cartridge. The brush head form is visible at the curved edge of the swatch, different from all the other inks that were applied with a more floppy watercolour brush.