Lubricated ink for sailor

[Asteris]

I am thinking about using lubricating ink on a 14k M nib 1911s model and Diamine inks is in my budget. What's your opinion? What about the shimmering inks Diamine offers?

[Chi]

@Asteris are you thinking of a "wetter" ink from Diamine? or ink specifically with lubricant in it? These are two different qualities. As far as I know, there are only two brands now offering lubricant inks, which are Noodler's and Monteverde.

 

As for Shimmer inks from Diamine, I would suggest you get samples and try the colors out. You can get the samples very easily from numerous online venders and they offer various amount from 2ml to 4ml typically. Which is plenty to write out a few pages. Diamine shimmer inks have various amount of shimmer in them, some heavier than others. It is very hard to generalized. For example, your pen might be fine with Shimmering Sea (Deep blue with gold shimmer) but get clogged up with Winter Miracle ( Purple-black with yellow green sheen and cyan shimmer). 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

Chi

[Asteris]

20 minutes ago, Chi said:

@Asteris are you thinking of a "wetter" ink from Diamine? or ink specifically with lubricant in it? These are two different qualities. As far as I know, there are only two brands now offering lubricant inks, which are Noodler's and Monteverde.

 

As for Shimmer inks from Diamine, I would suggest you get samples and try the colors out. You can get the samples very easily from numerous online venders and they offer various amount from 2ml to 4ml typically. Which is plenty to write out a few pages. Diamine shimmer inks have various amount of shimmer in them, some heavier than others. It is very hard to generalized. For example, your pen might be fine with Shimmering Sea (Deep blue with gold shimmer) but get clogged up with Winter Miracle ( Purple-black with yellow green sheen and cyan shimmer). 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

Chi

Tanks for the advice on shimmering ink. Regarding the other,I'm just searching for wet ink and someone on this forum suggested me diamine inks as 'lubricated' and I was happy do find out I can get them locally for the same price as the pelikan 4001 I'm using now.

[awa54]

Diamine inks are not all alike... *most* could be described as above average wetness and many rate as pigment dense (at least in my book). If your 1911 is like my Pro Gear Slims, then it'll work well with most any ink with regard to flow issues and the cap seal is excellent, so pigment dense inks will have less of a chance of causing issues.

 

As far as the shimmer inks go, I never use them, so can't comment, but I agree with Chi's suggestion to test the pen with these inks before committing... 

[Asteris]

10 hours ago, awa54 said:

Diamine inks are not all alike... *most* could be described as above average wetness and many rate as pigment dense (at least in my book). If your 1911 is like my Pro Gear Slims, then it'll work well with most any ink with regard to flow issues and the cap seal is excellent, so pigment dense inks will have less of a chance of causing issues.

 

As far as the shimmer inks go, I never use them, so can't comment, but I agree with Chi's suggestion to test the pen with these inks before committing... 

I can't follow you. Do you say that most diamine inks are considered wet but for you are pigment dense, or that there also pigmeneted inks in their line of products?

[Karmachanic]

10 hours ago, awa54 said:

pigment dense

 

An example of why it is important to use correct terminology.  Otherwise we run the risk of causing confusion, which runs the risk of leading people in the wrong direction.

 

Diamine inks are dye inks. Platinum, for instance has pigment inks. Carbon inks can be considered to be pigment inks. Pigment inks contain non-water soluable particles suspended in the water.  Many, but not all, such inks can clog a pens feed, particularly if not used frequently.

 

Ink wetness and ink lubrication are different characteristics.

 

You may find this thread helpful in understanding the differences.  Educational and worth the read.

 

Toodles!

 

[awa54]

You followed my gist perfectly!

Many Diamine inks have good flow characteristics ("wet") and most Diamine inks are pigment dense, at least when compared to traditional "watery" inks like Parker Quink, Sheaffer, "regular" Pilot ink, etc.

 

Unsurprisingly, considering the massive number of inks Diamine produces, there are a few inks with lower color density and also some that are dry writing.

 

The term "pigment dense" is a bit misleading, since it's an easy way to describe inks that have higher than average color saturation, whether they are dye based or "pigment" based... IIRC, Diamine's regular line inks are dye based.

The perceived goodness and trouble-free operation of dye based inks isn't a universal thing either, as very saturated dye based inks like some of the Sailor Shikiori line and more than a few Noodler's colors can cause similar issues to true pigment based inks (not all of which are bad actors).

 

Again, I don't use novelty inks, but the reviews, questions and complaints I have read regarding shimmer inks leads me to believe that they are a step past the average pigment based ink in regard to the potential for flow issues, clogging issues and cleaning difficulty.

Sheeners seem to be in the same boat with shimmer inks, though I own and use a few that are subtle sheen producers and they're more on a par with other dense dye based inks in terms of function and cleanup.

 

 

*Note, I was typing this message as @Karmachanic posted the previous one, so I once again transgressed the term "pigment". Please accept my humble apology  

[awa54]

As @Karmachanic notes the word "pigment"  is fraught with meaning that it doesn't necessarily carry in daily conversation, where it can be used interchangeably with "colorant" without ruffling many feathers... In ink-speak, dye is a colorant which is fully in solution in ink, while pigment implies un-bonded colorant particles in suspension. 

 

The chemical truth of this reality can still be unclear as it relates to ink, since dye will no longer remain in solution if the necessary volume of water is no longer available due to evaporation... depending on the composition of the dye in question, it may rinse out easily, or in rarer cases, it can be similar in clogging and cleaning difficulty to true pigment inks. OTOH all pigment inks I've encountered are prone to clogging and cleanup issues when allowed to dry out completely in a pen.

 

In terms of wetness vs. lubricity, it is very true that the characteristics are seperate, however... I've never met a dry writing ink that felt well lubricated and especially with larger nibs the very act of having a generous ink flow contributes to a feeling of glide on the page (at least with smooth paper that isn't excessively absorbent), so it can be difficult to determine exactly which characteristic is responsible for a smooth feel on the page when both are present in a given ink.

 

*Lubricated* inks, as mentioned are another thing altogether and are meant to reduce friction in piston filling systems. I don't notice a luxurious glide on the page with Noodler's Eel ink despite it being a wet writing *and* lubricated ink, probably due to how it instantly soaks in to most papers (usually feathering horribly).

The piston converters in Sailor pens work nicely with all inks I've tried and shouldn't require a lubricated ink to maintain good function.

 

 

[Chi]

2 hours ago, awa54 said:

Again, I don't use novelty inks, but the reviews, questions and complaints I have read regarding shimmer inks leads me to believe that they are a step past the average pigment based ink in regard to the potential for flow issues, clogging issues and cleaning difficulty.

Sheeners seem to be in the same boat with shimmer inks, though I own and use a few that are subtle sheen producers and they're more on a par with other dense dye based inks in terms of function and cleanup.

 

As a person who love sheening, shading and shimmering inks, 

Shimmering inks do require you take better care of your pens, like cleaning it regularly. The shimmers are real particles in the ink, they tend to stick on the feed because of their weight and are hard to clean. You might find random shimmer in your writing after switching to another ink if not clean properly.

 

There are tricks you need to do to keep the shimmer effects as well because particles settle. You usually have to shake the ink bottle to make sure shimmers are evenly spread before filling your pen. Shake/rotate your pens before your start writing and during writing to keep the shimmer consistent.

 

What paper you use for your shimmering inks are important also. With these special effect inks, you need paper that is less absorbent to have better result. Depending on what paper you use, your ink can go from sparkling-monster to nothing-special using the same pen.

 

That is why I highly recommend trying out samples first, before you commit to using shimmering inks. Then you can see if shimmering ink fits into your current set up.  

 

[Asteris]

23 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

An example of why it is important to use correct terminology.  Otherwise we run the risk of causing confusion, which runs the risk of leading people in the wrong direction.

 

Diamine inks are dye inks. Platinum, for instance has pigment inks. Carbon inks can be considered to be pigment inks. Pigment inks contain non-water soluable particles suspended in the water.  Many, but not all, such inks can clog a pens feed, particularly if not used frequently.

 

Ink wetness and ink lubrication are different characteristics.

 

You may find this thread helpful in understanding the differences.  Educational and worth the read.

 

Toodles!

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Asteris]

23 hours ago, awa54 said:

As @Karmachanic notes the word "pigment"  is fraught with meaning that it doesn't necessarily carry in daily conversation, where it can be used interchangeably with "colorant" without ruffling many feathers... In ink-speak, dye is a colorant which is fully in solution in ink, while pigment implies un-bonded colorant particles in suspension. 

 

The chemical truth of this reality can still be unclear as it relates to ink, since dye will no longer remain in solution if the necessary volume of water is no longer available due to evaporation... depending on the composition of the dye in question, it may rinse out easily, or in rarer cases, it can be similar in clogging and cleaning difficulty to true pigment inks. OTOH all pigment inks I've encountered are prone to clogging and cleanup issues when allowed to dry out completely in a pen.

 

In terms of wetness vs. lubricity, it is very true that the characteristics are seperate, however... I've never met a dry writing ink that felt well lubricated and especially with larger nibs the very act of having a generous ink flow contributes to a feeling of glide on the page (at least with smooth paper that isn't excessively absorbent), so it can be difficult to determine exactly which characteristic is responsible for a smooth feel on the page when both are present in a given ink.

 

*Lubricated* inks, as mentioned are another thing altogether and are meant to reduce friction in piston filling systems. I don't notice a luxurious glide on the page with Noodler's Eel ink despite it being a wet writing *and* lubricated ink, probably due to how it instantly soaks in to most papers (usually feathering horribly).

The piston converters in Sailor pens work nicely with all inks I've tried and shouldn't require a lubricated ink to maintain good function.

 

 

When I started this thread, I was using  pelikan 4001 in my metro. A dry ink in a dry pen. As a result sometimes the pen would stop putting ink on the page. I'm planning on geting a sailor 1911s and i want to use good, but inexpensive ink. Someone here suggested diamine inks.

[awa54]

48 minutes ago, Asteris said:

When I started this thread, I was using  pelikan 4001 in my metro. A dry ink in a dry pen. As a result sometimes the pen would stop putting ink on the page. I'm planning on geting a sailor 1911s and i want to use good, but inexpensive ink. Someone here suggested diamine inks.

 

TLDR: you shouldn't worry about using any dye based inks in a current production Sailor 1911, in fact it should handle pigment inks perfectly well too. However, all bets are off with extreme sheeners, shimmer inks and "drawing" inks (never use illustration inks or India ink in fountain pens, they contain fixatives that will clog the feed channels of a fountain pen, often irreparably!).

 

 

My experience with Diamine's regular line inks is that even the very saturated colors are not problematic the way some other high saturation inks and many "pigment" inks are, however they *are* a bit more prone to flow issues when used in a pen that has poor or so-so cap sealing, especially if that pen isn't used at least several times a week. 

 

The current production Sailor screw cap pens have a reputation for very good to excellent cap sealing, so I would say that you are safe using Diamine's regular line inks in that pen without worrying about ink related issues. My personal experience with modern Sailor pens is that my two Pro Gear Slim pens have had zero issues with any of the dye based or pigment inks I've loaded them with, this includes one of them being continuously filled with Sailor's Kiwaguro pigment black for over a year. The Profit Jr/Compass is also excellent in this respect; one of mine was continuously inked for the better end of two years and in that time never failed to write at the first touch.

...of course any time a pen dries out to the point where the ink isn't flowing well anymore, or even worse dries completely, then a thorough flush is in order.

 

If you want affordable ink that's even lower maintenance than Diamine, then check out the basic color inks (black, blue-black or blue) from Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, Parker, Sheaffer or Waterman. These "watery", dye based inks will give you ease of operation and generally excellent performance, all at fair prices.

What they don't offer that Diamine does are the variety of available colors and the color density/saturation of the more intense Diamine inks.

Pilot's Iroshizuku line and Sailor's Shikiori inks offer more color options, while still being reliable and easy to clean, but they do cost more.

[Asteris]

6 minutes ago, awa54 said:

 

TLDR: you shouldn't worry about using any dye based inks in a current production Sailor 1911, in fact it should handle pigment inks perfectly well too. However, all bets are off with extreme sheeners, shimmer inks and "drawing" inks.

 

 

My experience with Diamine's regular line inks is that even the very saturated colors are not problematic the way some other high saturation inks and many "pigment" inks are, however they *are* a bit more prone to flow issues when used in a pen that has poor or so-so cap sealing, especially if that pen isn't used at least several times a week. 

 

The current production Sailor screw cap pens have a reputation for very good to excellent cap sealing, so I would say that you are safe using Diamine's regular line inks in that pen without worrying about ink related issues. My personal experience with modern Sailor pens is that my two Pro Gear Slim pens have had zero issues with any of the dye based or pigment inks I've loaded them with, this includes one of them being continuously filled with Sailor's Kiwaguro pigment black for over a year. The Profit Jr/Compass is also excellent in this respect; one of mine was continuously inked for the better end of two years and in that time never failed to write at the first touch.

...of course any time a pen dries out to the point where the ink isn't flowing well anymore, or even worse dries completely, then a thorough flush is in order.

 

If you want affordable ink that's even lower maintenance than Diamine, then check out the basic color inks (black, blue-black or blue) from Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, Parker, Sheaffer or Waterman. These "watery", dye based inks will give you ease of operation and generally excellent performance, all at fair prices.

What they don't offer that Diamine does are the variety of available colors and the color density/saturation of the more intense Diamine inks.

Pilot's Iroshizuku line and Sailor's Shikiori inks offer more color options, while still being reliable and easy to clean, but they do cost more.

Thanks for the advice. Indeed, Diamime offers some great colors( oxford blue is amazing!)

[Asteris]

8 minutes ago, awa54 said:

 

TLDR: you shouldn't worry about using any dye based inks in a current production Sailor 1911, in fact it should handle pigment inks perfectly well too. However, all bets are off with extreme sheeners, shimmer inks and "drawing" inks.

 

 

My experience with Diamine's regular line inks is that even the very saturated colors are not problematic the way some other high saturation inks and many "pigment" inks are, however they *are* a bit more prone to flow issues when used in a pen that has poor or so-so cap sealing, especially if that pen isn't used at least several times a week. 

 

The current production Sailor screw cap pens have a reputation for very good to excellent cap sealing, so I would say that you are safe using Diamine's regular line inks in that pen without worrying about ink related issues. My personal experience with modern Sailor pens is that my two Pro Gear Slim pens have had zero issues with any of the dye based or pigment inks I've loaded them with, this includes one of them being continuously filled with Sailor's Kiwaguro pigment black for over a year. The Profit Jr/Compass is also excellent in this respect; one of mine was continuously inked for the better end of two years and in that time never failed to write at the first touch.

...of course any time a pen dries out to the point where the ink isn't flowing well anymore, or even worse dries completely, then a thorough flush is in order.

 

If you want affordable ink that's even lower maintenance than Diamine, then check out the basic color inks (black, blue-black or blue) from Sailor, Platinum, Pilot, Parker, Sheaffer or Waterman. These "watery", dye based inks will give you ease of operation and generally excellent performance, all at fair prices.

What they don't offer that Diamine does are the variety of available colors and the color density/saturation of the more intense Diamine inks.

Pilot's Iroshizuku line and Sailor's Shikiori inks offer more color options, while still being reliable and easy to clean, but they do cost more.

About parker inks, can i use the quink inks?

[A Smug Dill]

On 1/24/2022 at 2:56 AM, awa54 said:

The term "pigment dense" is a bit misleading, since it's an easy way to describe inks that have higher than average color saturation, whether they are dye based or "pigment" based...

 

I've never heard of that, and I couldn't make sense of it.

 

I've heard of high (soluble) dye load in inks, which is different from colour saturation in the HSV sense.

 

I've heard of, in not very technical terms, ink containing "lots of (insoluble pigment) particles". I've heard of ink containing large particles (which is "bad news"). Pigment dense? Would that be number of individual particles per unit volume of ink, which ignores particle size? Or would that be aggregate volume of particles per unit volume of ink? Or total mass of particles per unit mass (or weight) of ink?

 

1 hour ago, Asteris said:

I'm planning on geting a sailor 1911s and i want to use good, but inexpensive ink.

 

Sailor's "basic" (as in not fancy, as opposed to being the opposite of acidic) black, blue-black, and blue inks are dye-based and not expensive either, and surely suitable for use in Sailor fountain pens. 

[arcfide]

Instead of "pigment dense" I think a more generally accurate term might be "concentrated" in order to distinguish from saturation levels. 

 

As far as a Sailor and using a good but inexpensive ink, I would highly recommend Sailor's basic line, as they are some terrific and high performing inks that you can usually find at good prices in many locations. They are generally priced very competitively. Likewise, I generally find Parker and Waterman inks to be available for a good price, and they are highly reliable and dependable inks, assuming you don't care about UV or water resistance. Herbin's 100ml bottles of Blue and Black inks are also usually pretty affordable. Diamine makes a lot of affordable inks, but I find them to be more varied in their properties. If you stick with the good standby colors in the affordable range, you're likely to get good performance across the board. Depending on where you are, Platinum and Pilot standard inks are also quite affordable, but where I'm at Platinum inks tend to be a little more expensive (worth it, IMO, but YMMV) for the standard colors. You may also want to take a look at the large bottles of Monteverde ink and what their rates are in your location. The prices are good where I am, and they are good inks. 

[awa54]

12 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I've never heard of that, and I couldn't make sense of it.

 

I've heard of high (soluble) dye load in inks, which is different from colour saturation in the HSV sense.

 

I've heard of, in not very technical terms, ink containing "lots of (insoluble pigment) particles". I've heard of ink containing large particles (which is "bad news"). Pigment dense? Would that be number of individual particles per unit volume of ink, which ignores particle size? Or would that be aggregate volume of particles per unit volume of ink? Or total mass of particles per unit mass (or weight) of ink?

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, the word "pigment" when used outside the very exclusive subject of modern ink technology, has a much looser meaning.

 

Obviously, we're not using colloquial English here, since Thesaurus.com literally suggests "dye" as a synonym for pigment...

 

 

 

 

 

I also thought that the phrase "pigment dense" would be interpreted as referring to "a mixture containing a high concentration of the colorant component" (be that true *particulate* nano-pigment in suspension, or a fully dissolved dye).

Seems not.

 

I think we may need an /Ink Science on /Ink Science off protocol to prevent the transgression of special words, as well as the sadness and recrimination that follow such savage abuses.

 

[awa54]

13 hours ago, Asteris said:

Thanks for the advice. Indeed, Diamime offers some great colors( oxford blue is amazing!)

 

Oxford blue is one of the Diamine inks I've actually had issues with. When it dries down in a pen with a poor cap seal (or just over an extended time), the thickened or completely dried ink leaves a substantial amount of residue behind, making cleanup more time consuming.

 

 

13 hours ago, Asteris said:

About parker inks, can i use the quink inks?

 

Yes, the Quink inks are well behaved, inexpensive and AFAIK they're the only inks currently available from Parker (at least in the US market).

The retired Parker "Penman" formula was known to cause  /Ink Science on capillary channel obstruction, caused by particulate dye residues which are no longer held in solution due to complete or partial evaporation of the liquid solvent [Dihydrogen Monoxide] /Ink Science off and their long abandoned "Superchrome" ink formula had a reputation for damaging most pens it was used in, even the Parker 51 that it was designed for.

 

[Asteris]

6 hours ago, awa54 said:

 

Oxford blue is one of the Diamine inks I've actually had issues with. When it dries down in a pen with a poor cap seal (or just over an extended time), the thickened or completely dried ink leaves a substantial amount of residue behind, making cleanup more time consuming.

 

 

 

Yes, the Quink inks are well behaved, inexpensive and AFAIK they're the only inks currently available from Parker (at least in the US market).

The retired Parker "Penman" formula was known to cause  /Ink Science on capillary channel obstruction, caused by particulate dye residues which are no longer held in solution due to complete or partial evaporation of the liquid solvent [Dihydrogen Monoxide] /Ink Science off and their long abandoned "Superchrome" ink formula had a reputation for damaging most pens it was used in, even the Parker 51 that it was designed for.

 

Thanks for the warning. The parker inks are the most inexpensive inks I can find on the local market.

[awa54]

Are you in the USA? My local stationer charges $12 for a large (2 oz.?) bottle of Quink and I've seen it around $10 online, this is solidly in the "regular price" bracket for ink from a respected maker.

 

...also, there was a period in 2019-2020 where some people were reporting SITB (Slime In The Bottle) infections in some Monteverde inks. I got a bad bottle of the Olivine, which smelled sulphurous, like hard boiled eggs gone bad, but it didn't have a mat of goop at the bottom of the bottle like some infections I've seen, so sniff test any Monteverde inks you get before use.

 

SITB  aside, I like the Monteverde inks I've used.