What nib to get

[Asteris]

I'm planning on geting a pelikan m200 as a step up from my pilot mr (metropolitan) with a M nib. I want the pelikan nib to have the same line width as the metro (or at least not fatter), but I don't know if I need a pelikan fine or extra fine. Of course I will test both sizes when I get a chance, but I would appreciate your help.

[A Smug Dill]

I was just whinging to my wife, not even 12 hours ago, how Pelikan's (EF and F) nibs lack consistency badly within a given width grade, when I pulled my nine inked M2xx and M400 pens out of the pen case to write a few lines with each, to see which ones need cleaning and/or refilling. Even two steel M200 F nibs can differ greatly in line widths they produce, and that could be predicted just by looking at the tipping.

 

So, if you are targeting a specific line width, then I'm afraid you really need to try, or at least inspect, the particular nib (unit) first to be sure.

 

Issue of consistency aside(?!), here's a comparison of one particular steel EF nib against one particular steel F nib for the M200:

 

[Asteris]

Wow, I'm surprised such a company has this issue. I had a chance to test my father's pelikan 400n extra-fine nib and it writes like the metro medium nib (athough I think it's because of the flex). Thanks for the advice and the pictures.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Dill, the 200 on the left seems to have the old tear drop tipping, and the one to the right the new double ball tipping.....that to my experience and reading  is 1/2 a width wider than the tear drop.

 

My W. Germany small 600 tear drop OBB is 1/2 a width narrower than my 2005 double ball 1005  OBB.

 

Someone pointed out that with in the last 5 or so years the 200's nib is now a double ball, and I found that to be true.

My Marbled Brown; I'd asked Fritz for the narrowest EF nib he had in his shop, and it is tear drop; probably an old nib.

 

See my signature.

My Petrol, or older Ruby  are fat and blobby new double ball nibs...............luckily in M, a width I've grown to like........so I wasn't measuring the nib; which I could understand if someone was looking at 'narrow' F or EF nibs where it might count more than M.

 

OK, so I'm blind, I'd not noticed my M nibs of my Ruby or Petrol 200's were fatter than my older Amethyst and semi-vintage 200's. (Nor had I been looking hard for a clean line with the one time inked Ruby nor the still inked Petrol.) I wasn't looking for that.....betrayal of a perfect nib .

 

 I just took a look and I may have made a mistake thinking my Amethyst was double ball but it's not, it's the old tear drop shaped tipping. 

 

(Looking for ruined nibs, has reminded me I have a couple 150's and a 151 (Italian market 150, green and black; sort of the old 120 colors. Those nibs I expect to be as great ad the older 200 nibs were but just smaller like perhaps the old 140. They were great the one time I tried each pen. )

[chromantic]

You rolls the dice and takes what you gets. I usually go for EFs but will take Fs if that's all there is and I'm usually satisfied. I didn't use my Telecom for the longest time because it came with an M. I always hoped to order a replacement but never got around to it and when I did finally ink it up (with a dry Stipula), it turned out not bad at all.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

You can always order from Cultpens, which tends to be the cheapest option, and add a spare nib. Ie., get a m200 ef, then add the spare f.

[sansenri]

given European nibs tend to be wider than Japanese, and on Pelikans in particular they are slightly wider than average, I tend to think that upgrading from a Pilot MR (even M) to a Pelikan is not the best move if you are keen on very fine nibs... you are probably heading for disappointment.

M200 nibs are nice nibs but you should consider them in their slightly wider offer F, M, B, the latter two better for what they are...

(if you are into broad nibs the M200 nib is a unique nib, there aren't many steel B nibs that are springy like the Pelikan M200 B...)

There are so many fine nibbed pens that excel among the Japanese offer that it might be wiser to look in that direction for that scope.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

If I ever get another 200 LE pen, it will be a B. I have one but  favor wider nibs over narrow ones.  It will be being a double ball nib, wider than the ones from half a decade ago.

I think I'll take some of my good paper and check the next one out before hand at my B&M.

 

(I may print out Ricard's old nib with chart and see how wide the new fat and blobby 200's M is vs an older tear drop B that I have, to see how much difference there is. And do that with good to better paper.) Chasing wider nibs never had the interest to know my F was fatter or skinnier than some other brand....and was using cheap 80g copy paper, so wasn't getting a 'true' reading of width.

 

If the OP wishes a narrow line, IMO a modern Pelikan 200 EF would more than likely be a Japanese F-M. In the double ball nib is 1/2 a width wider than the tear drop one.

And Western EF = Japanese F, not counting the 1/2 a width wider post '97 double ball Pelikan nibs.

 

Perhaps a nice used Pelikan 200 from more than 5 years ago, with a tear drop tipping in EF would = Japanese F. (I'm not into narrow nibs thinking a western F narrow enough for me. I do have a few western EF's. And a Waterman F that is = to my tear drop Pelikan 200's EF nib.

 

My two 52's don't count. That F=EF Waterman is semi-vintage a @ 1990 Mann 200 in regular flex; like the 200's nib..

The OP could look for semi-vintage Waterman EF's.

 

Aurora use to make the narrowest Euro nib......I don't know how their modern nibs are.

 

Or one could always send the 200's nib away to a nibmeister to have the double ball ground finer and tear dropped............while doing it might as well have the top ball made into a super narrow top tip for upside down writing.

I believe there was not enough tipping to do that on the  200's 'classic' tear drop nib..........but I'm not a nibmeister, so don't know. 

 

[Asteris]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:07 PM, sansenri said:

given European nibs tend to be wider than Japanese, and on Pelikans in particular they are slightly wider than average, I tend to think that upgrading from a Pilot MR (even M) to a Pelikan is not the best move if you are keen on very fine nibs... you are probably heading for disappointment.

M200 nibs are nice nibs but you should consider them in their slightly wider offer F, M, B, the latter two better for what they are...

(if you are into broad nibs the M200 nib is a unique nib, there aren't many steel B nibs that are springy like the Pelikan M200 B...)

There are so many fine nibbed pens that excel among the Japanese offer that it might be wiser to look in that direction for that scope.

 

The reason i was interested in pelikan is because i tried my father's m200 with a tear-drop fine nib and i love it. Regarding japanese pens, in my country you are going to find either the starter pens or the overpriced flagships of a brand. I can buy directly from japan for cheaper, but if i count the shipping cost, its is going to be the same as the local and it is going to take longer to get it. Anyways, could you recomend me some after-starter  japanese pens, regadless of cost?

[sansenri]

Regardless of cost (but without going sky high) you should take a look at a Sailor Pro Gear in my opinion.

They make some of the nicest nibs, and the Pro Gear is a fine pen, leaving nothing to the mere aesthetic but a lot of substance (it's actually also quite elegant and proportionate to my eye - comfortable in the hand, also).

[senzen]

Just did a quick test for you: Metro M with Kon Peki seems to write very slightly thicker than blue M205 EF with Vert de Gris, which in turn writes very slightly thicker than green M205 F with Hisoku; my impression is inks make a difference, as well as whether anyone has messed with the nibs (Hisoku is notoriously "dry", both M205 were bought used). My M605 F with an 18k nib possibly fine tuned by the pevious owner writes as thick as the M Metro.

 

[Asteris]

What tipping do the nibs have? Tear drop or ball?

[Asteris]

2 hours ago, sansenri said:

Regardless of cost (but without going sky high) you should take a look at a Sailor Pro Gear in my opinion.

They make some of the nicest nibs, and the Pro Gear is a fine pen, leaving nothing to the mere aesthetic but a lot of substance (it's actually also quite elegant and proportionate to my eye - comfortable in the hand, also).

I found the sailor promenade to be in my budget,but I'm not sure about the wheight, since i want a pen that would be comfortable to write with for long periods (about 3hours continious writing). What are your thoughts about it? There is also the platinum 3776 that i can afford.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

Lighter pens cause less fatigue over extended periods of times. The Sailor is pretty light, until you get to the KOP of pen models, but those are still light models. In general, unless you are an old person, or suffer from some type of hand issues, the actual weight of the pen is meaningless. Unless, it is a very sturdy metal pen. 

 

What is important, is how to pen fits in hand. I can use an m1000 (Pelikan), or any large pen, for extended writing periods (6+ hours) with no issues. I have normal sized hands, and can use anything from a Kaweco Liliput to m1000 without issues.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

The sailor will write a finer line than the Pelikan. But do not dismiss the Pelikan. Just do not use overly wet nibs, and get an EF.

 

There is also Platinum century in UEF, which gives you one of the finest lines possible  in a stock fountain pen. Might be cheaper than the Sailor.

[Bo Bo Olson]

2 hours ago, senzen said:

My M605 F with an 18k nib possibly fine tuned by the previous owner writes as thick as the M Metro.

From my reading that is normal, with most western nibs of an F= a Japanese M.

One width difference.....though a Japanese B is a M+....from a chart I can remember.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, Asteris said:

Anyways, could you recomend me some after-starter  japanese pens, regadless of cost?

 

Next-step-up pens, from the Japanese Big Three fountain pen brands, are the entry-level models in their core product lines, which gives you the benefit of the signature character and quality of the nibs for which the brands are known. The pen bodies are all representative of the respective brand's fit and finish. They're all good, as long as you're not after a physically large(r) pen.

• Pilot Custom : the cigar-shaped Custom 74, or flat-ended Custom Heritage 91, both fitted with the same size and type (no.5 size in Pilot's parlance, and in 14K gold), albeit with different finishes to match the trim
• Platinum #3776 Century  : the gold-trimmed models that come in five colours — (opaque) ‘Black in Black’, (translucent) Chartres Blue, (translucent) Laurel Green, (translucent) Bourgogne, and (opaque) Chenonceau White — fitted with 14K gold nibs, which are all the same size and type as in the premium models high up in the product line
• Sailor Profit (aka 1911) or Professional Gear : Profit models are cigar-shaped, while Professional Gear models have flat ends. Their respective entry level models are the Profit Standard and Professional Gear Slim, both fitted with ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold nibs

I personally wouldn't recommend the Custom 74 because I find it the most uncomfortable, but there are some users and fellow hobbyists here who swear by the largely cylindrical barrel. I'm pretty happy with the Custom Heritage 91, which has a subtly curvier barrel. I find the larger Custom Heritage 912 is more comfortable still, and better in that regard than even the full-sized Professional Gear (‘Classic’). The Platinum #3776 Century is OK; I generally prefer flat ends on pen bodies, but the #3776C are (almost) all cigar-shaped; and there's a shallow step-down on the #3776C's body from barrel to gripping section that is sometimes an unwelcome distraction (but falls short of being an annoyance) to me. The material and finish of the #3776C's pen bodies feel a smidgen less premium subjectively, compared to the other two brands.

 

Where the Platinum pens stand out is having spring-loaded inner caps, marketed as the Slip & Seal mechanism and one of the product's major selling point, and the availability of Ultra Extra Fine nibs as an option on even the cheapest model without charging a premium for it. The cap seal effectiveness on the Pilot Custom and Sailor Profit/ProGear pens are excellent all the same, in spite of not having a spring-loaded inner cap.

 

Each brand's nib has a different character, and I'm not really going to recommend one to you over another, since which one is best or better depends entirely on personal writing style/requirements and subjective preferences. My personal favourite brand for the nibs is Sailor.

 

35 minutes ago, Asteris said:

I found the sailor promenade to be in my budget,

 

The Sailor Promenade is a discontinued model, and an underrated one. I didn't find out until later, even though I had one for a couple of years, that it is also fitted with a spring-loaded inner cap, which I've never seen mentioned in any of Sailor's marketing collateral or literature. It uses the same type of 14K gold nib found in Profit Standard models. These days, I like the feel in hand of the Promenade better than I do the Profit Standard and Pro Gear Slim. The Shining Blue and Shining Red models are quite beautiful with subtle chatoyance, and better looking than most ‘special edition’ Profit and Pro Gear models in various combinations of plain-coloured resins. Between my wife and I, we now have five Promenade pens; and it was one of the rare Japanese pen models I was prepared to pay more than the MSRP to secure (after I've learnt to appreciate the model too late, and it'd been discontinued for a year by then and getting scarce in the market), instead of demanding a discount.

 

[Asteris]

22 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

The sailor will write a finer line than the Pelikan. But do not dismiss the Pelikan. Just do not use overly wet nibs, and get an EF.

 

There is also Platinum century in UEF, which gives you one of the finest lines possible  in a stock fountain pen. Might be cheaper than the Sailor.

Thanks for the advise. If i buy an m200, i will get the EF nib, if it has the ball tip. If it has the tear-drop one, then I'l buy the F one. Regarding japanese pens, It's hard to choose between Sailor and Platinum. But If I i compare the prices I have: 

Pelikan m200: around 99euros if i buy it locally from a pen store

Sailor progear: 150 to 250 if i buy it locally

Sailor promenade: around 85 to 100 euros from e-bay plus 22 euros shipping and no customer support, like when you buy from a physical store.

So, either pelikan m200 or promenade.I guess the choice is up to me...

[Asteris]

7 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Next-step-up pens, from the Japanese Big Three fountain pen brands, are the entry-level models in their core product lines, which gives you the benefit of the signature character and quality of the nibs for which the brands are known. The pen bodies are all representative of the respective brand's fit and finish. They're all good, as long as you're not after a physically large(r) pen.

• Pilot Custom : the cigar-shaped Custom 74, or flat-ended Custom Heritage 91, both fitted with the same size and type (no.5 size in Pilot's parlance, and in 14K gold), albeit with different finishes to match the trim
• Platinum #3776 Century  : the gold-trimmed models that come in five colours — (opaque) ‘Black in Black’, (translucent) Chartres Blue, (translucent) Laurel Green, (translucent) Bourgogne, and (opaque) Chenonceau White — fitted with 14K gold nibs, which are all the same size and type as in the premium models high up in the product line
• Sailor Profit (aka 1911) or Professional Gear : Profit models are cigar-shaped, while Professional Gear models have flat ends. Their respective entry level models are the Profit Standard and Professional Gear Slim, both fitted with ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold nibs

I personally wouldn't recommend the Custom 74 because I find it the most uncomfortable, but there are some users and fellow hobbyists here who swear by the largely cylindrical barrel. I'm pretty happy with the Custom Heritage 91, which has a subtly curvier barrel. I find the larger Custom Heritage 912 is more comfortable still, and better in that regard than even the full-sized Professional Gear (‘Classic’). The Platinum #3776 Century is OK; I generally prefer flat ends on pen bodies, but the #3776C are (almost) all cigar-shaped; and there's a shallow step-down on the #3776C's body from barrel to gripping section that is sometimes an unwelcome distraction (but falls short of being an annoyance) to me. The material and finish of the #3776C's pen bodies feel a smidgen less premium subjectively, compared to the other two brands.

 

Where the Platinum pens stand out is having spring-loaded inner caps, marketed as the Slip & Seal mechanism and one of the product's major selling point, and the availability of Ultra Extra Fine nibs as an option on even the cheapest model without charging a premium for it. The cap seal effectiveness on the Pilot Custom and Sailor Profit/ProGear pens are excellent all the same, in spite of not having a spring-loaded inner cap.

 

Each brand's nib has a different character, and I'm not really going to recommend one to you over another, since which one is best or better depends entirely on personal writing style/requirements and subjective preferences. My personal favourite brand for the nibs is Sailor.

 

 

The Sailor Promenade is a discontinued model, and an underrated one. I didn't find out until later, even though I had one for a couple of years, that it is also fitted with a spring-loaded inner cap, which I've never seen mentioned in any of Sailor's marketing collateral or literature. It uses the same type of 14K gold nib found in Profit Standard models. These days, I like the feel in hand of the Promenade better than I do the Profit Standard and Pro Gear Slim. The Shining Blue and Shining Red models are quite beautiful with subtle chatoyance, and better looking than most ‘special edition’ Profit and Pro Gear models in various combinations of plain-coloured resins. Between my wife and I, we now have five Promenade pens; and it was one of the rare Japanese pen models I was prepared to pay more than the MSRP to secure (after I've learnt to appreciate the model too late, and it'd been discontinued for a year by then and getting scarce in the market), instead of demanding a discount.

 

Thanks for the answer. Indeed, the promenade is special regarding the lower price compared to the 1911 but the same quality. Also the size is close to the metro, that I'm comfortable with. It is my first choise if i choose a japanese pen.

[sansenri]

1 hour ago, Asteris said:

I found the sailor promenade to be in my budget,but I'm not sure about the wheight, since i want a pen that would be comfortable to write with for long periods (about 3hours continious writing). What are your thoughts about it? There is also the platinum 3776 that i can afford.

The Platinum 3776 is a nice pen with a nice nib, I still prefer the ProGear though.

I have not tried the promenade so cannot judge.

The Profit is a bit too small, the Profit L would be better.

 

Given your budget and ASD's encouraging comments, the Promenade might be your way forward.