MB released 146 Flex in resin

[SpecTP]

@invisuuthank you for the great examples of what the 823 and 149C can do. I have the 823 and have never attempted to push the nib that far. I may try it. I have reserved the 146C and am looking forward to trying it out.

 

p.s. nice keyboard. I notice you have the space bar upside down. 😜

[arcfide]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:05 PM, A Smug Dill said:

I would imagine it takes very little ink (both in terms of flow rate, as well as total volume) to produce the sort of calligraphy that @fpupulin kindly posted above, and would hardly stress the capability of the factory-fitted plastic feed on the Pilot Custom Heritage 912 (or Pilot Custom 742), even if its FA nib, feed and everything else in the pen was not specific designed for that kind of writing.

You might be surprised. I used a 149C with Rhodia lined writing pads to do significant amounts of writing in Spencerian like the above and you go through ink surprisingly quickly. 

 

I don't know if you have considered it, but you may very well want something from nibs.com that has a custom Spencerian grind. I had good luck with their Spencerian grind of my Namiki Falcon. The only issue is that the feed was too wet for some very wet inks, but otherwise it's great. 

 

There's also that pen that takes Zebra G nibs (that you simply replace on a regular basis), which would probably also be excellent for you, as the Zebra G nibs are quite stiff but very flexible. 

[arcfide]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:39 PM, readytotalk said:

If I understand correctly, at the moment Montblanc seems to provide definitely better overall quality and comfort for flexible writing than any Pilot nib, doesn`t it?

Stock, not busted/mistuned, and writing English Spencerian or Roundhand, I'd put the MB over the Pilots all day long. But you can get the Pilots tuned and customized for a lot less risk and cost, and at that point, the Pilot pens start to make a lot of sense. 

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, arcfide said:

I don't know if you have considered it, but you may very well want something from nibs.com that has a custom Spencerian grind.

 

Not seriously, no. I generally do not like buying from American retailers — nothing political or personal, but primarily on account of most of them don't offer free shipping to delivery addresses outside the US (although Nibs.com does, or at least did, when I looked at exactly that), the typically horrendous delivery charges they ask, and the common practice of listing the MSRP (or even a more inflated price) and then offer you “our price” of MSRP-less-20% which almost everyone does in the industry in the US. Most European retailers, and Japanese retailers that didn't set themselves up to deal mostly with customers from the US, don't do that.

 

Furthermore, I also generally dislike Spencerian as a “brand” or idea that somehow dominates discussion in certain niches as if that is the standard or exemplar of pointed pen calligraphy in English, as opposed to it being the one seemingly favoured by Americans (on account of it being “American”?) out of so many different styles of calligraphy. So, calling it the “Spencerian grind” makes it a turn-off for me.

 

Just to be clear, that's not a criticism of either the actual form of Spencerian writing, or the skill and art of its practitioners. Take away all the “hype” and connotations of “American”, I like it just as well as I do other beautiful scripts and hands that are graceful, slender and sharp.

 

7 hours ago, Andrew_L said:

1 - 742(912), 2 - 149, 3 -823

 

That's my guess as well.

 

Spoiler

 

[arcfide]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

So, calling it the “Spencerian grind” makes it a turn-off for me.

 

Well, a nibs.com Spencerian grind is definitely a pretty "American branded" option (including the MSRP practices), so if that whole ethos is off-putting, then I guess that's that for such options. However, maybe there is a local nibmeister who would be willing to do something like this for you? But maybe it's a matter of "different evils" in this case, given that one of the better options is Montblanc, which I take from your comments is also somewhat off-putting. 

[A Smug Dill]

3 minutes ago, arcfide said:

But maybe it's a matter of "different evils" in this case, given that one of the better options is Montblanc, which I take from your comments is also somewhat off-putting. 

 

I think I'll just make do with the Pilot Custom 742 with FA nib (with FNF ebonite feed, not that I think it should be necessary just to produce the calligraphic forms) and the three Pilot Elabo/Falcon pens here to start off with, if I decide to start exploring pointed pen English calligraphy, and not worry about the availability of the Montblanc flexible calligraphy nibs when (or if) the time comes. That's one area where FOMO doesn't quite get to me. I wouldn't have bothered getting the Scribo FEEL with flexible EF nib to try, if I didn't have credit from a returned pen to burn at the time and the pen wasn't offered at such a significant discount to me.

 

All I can say is, after playing tentatively with a few ‘flex’ nibs, I don't think what most English-speakers in fountain pen hobbyist forums are looking to produce the sort of English calligraphy I would find appealing and expressive, if they're talking about ‘flex’ pens/nibs/writing. Expert penman, like @fpupulin and @Andrew_L whose work I've seen and admire, is one thing; but I don't think too many other users are looking for such perfect control (and perfectly controlled expression) and technical excellence. I don't know how many others write as well in everyday handwriting as @readytotalk and @como have demonstrated. If the Pilot Custom's #10 FA nib and Elabo's SEF nib are close to what is required to produce such work, then it'll be many years before I ‘need’ something better, and that's assuming that Montblanc's nibs are better in calligraphers' and expert penmen's opinion.

 

[como]

7 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

...calling it the “Spencerian grind” makes it a turn-off for me....

When it comes to looking at a specific product, we are better off leaving our prejudice at the door. In the context of evaluating a flex pen, Spencerian script (and Copperplate) is the perfect test. It requires the nib to go from needlepoint to BBB. Nibs.com's Spencerian grind is pretty good at this. It's not suitable for fibrous paper and occasional can have ink flow issues, but it does needlepoint to BBB and snapback very well. The reason why many like Spencerian is because it is graceful and at the same time allows a greater degree of freedom of expression, compared to some other more rigid scripts. Just personal preferences. We don't look for a flex nib to write Gothic scripts (though @fpupulin Franco managed to do that with good fun too😀).

[invisuu]

11 hours ago, readytotalk said:

Thank you very much for sharing, @invisuu, your test confirms that 149C is closer to #10 FA Pilot nib. 

PS And special thanks for the quotes from Russian writers, this is very kind of you)

 

Yup, agreed.

I'd be embarrassed to specify publicly how many times I have read everything written by Tolstoj and Dostojevski and Pushkin and Zamyatin and Gogol and...or how many copies of their collections I have or in how many translations and multiple languages to compare the differences...haha. Previous year was 200th anniversary of Dostojevski's birth and we celebrated in Slovenia with new translations and a book devoted to him, so it's been especially exciting.

 

10 hours ago, SpecTP said:

p.s. nice keyboard. I notice you have the space bar upside down. 😜

 

Holy smokes I haven't heard this argument ... in 10 years or so almost! That put a smile on my face, haha.

 

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

but I don't think too many other users are looking for such perfect control (and perfectly controlled expression) and technical excellence

 

 

This is definitely me. I adore what some here achieve, but I do not pursuit nor am I confident I am even capable of doing it, even if I tried my best. I just enjoy these nibs as a relaxing pastime and add some flare to my everyday writing.

[A Smug Dill]

14 hours ago, invisuu said:

which quote was written with which pen? My wife nailed it immediately, so it seems to be more obvious than I'd think.

 

This is what I see:

Spoiler

 

[invisuu]

13 hours ago, Andrew_L said:

1 - 742(912), 2 - 149, 3 -823

 

7 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

That's my guess as well.

 

Spoiler

You're both correct. I guess literally everyone figured it out, so it must be more obvious than I'd think, as I certainly can't discern the difference, lol.

 

[invisuu]

7 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

This is what I see:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Nicely done! 

[como]

Here is a comparison of 149C, 146C and Pilot Custom 912 with Spencerian grind (which has a 3-slit ebonite feed). 

Paper: Tomoe River 52gsm; Ink MB Royal Blue. The 912S can flex quite well, but ink flow is less consistent and paper choices limited. The 149C and 146C are more robust, consistent and versatile. I enjoy them all.

 

[readytotalk]

5 minutes ago, como said:

Here is a comparison of 149C, 146C and Pilot Custom 912 with Spencerian grind (which has a 3-slit ebonite feed). 

Paper: Tomoe River 52gsm; Ink MB Royal Blue. The 912S can flex quite well, but ink flow is less consistent and paper choices limited. The 149C and 146C are more robust, consistent and versatile. I enjoy them all.

 

Thank you @como! Interesting, why 912 skips horizontal and vertical lines so often? 

[como]

9 minutes ago, readytotalk said:

Thank you @como! Interesting, why 912 skips horizontal and vertical lines so often? 

@readytotalk I am guessing because of the constant lift-off action of the short strokes interrupts the not-so-perfect capillary action due to material ground away at the back side of the tines (to add flex). It looks very annoying, but in continuous writing as you normally would do with Spencerian/Copperplate, it happens much less (the skipping and railroading happens much less). That's why I still enjoy it. It does the "swell" quite well. It's a much more delicate nib than the Calligraphy nib. Maybe not all the Pilot Custom 912 with Spencerian grind behaves like mine (so I hope), but this is just my experience. 

[bunnspecial]

Well, Iguanashop got back to me and said they would refund if I wanted, but I decided to just stay in line with them. They said they were anticipating their next shipment sometime in February but indicated that they didn't know the allocation or whether or not they'd be able to fill my specific order out of that shipment....I hope so.

[Karmachanic]

2 hours ago, como said:

in continuous writing as you normally would do with Spencerian/Copperplate, it happens much less

 

Would the Flexible Nib Factory Ebonite, two channel feed help?

[como]

1 hour ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Would the Flexible Nib Factory Ebonite, two channel feed help?

@Karmachanic I bought both 2-slit and 3-sit ebonite feeds and tried both. It didn’t really help in this case. I don’t think it’s the feed. As you see, the skipping/hard start happens with short light strokes, and not with writing 888. I can conclude the skipping is not due to increase ink demand from flexing. I would guess it’s the grind at the back side of the tines and surrounding area. It writes much better when I actually write in a continuous manner. I can try to do a sample later. Spencerian grind  is difficult and time consuming. Overall I really like it. Of course you can’t really use it for daily writing, while with Calligraphy a lot of people do. I prefer the 149C and 146C all things considered. Of course 146C is more than twice the price of 912 w Spencerian grind, not insignificant.

[Karmachanic]

36 minutes ago, como said:

Spencerian grind  is difficult and time consuming.

 

Makes me think that a 912 EF grind sans "Spencerian" would do nicely.

[como]

Here are some more writing samples between 149C, 146C and Pilot 912 Spencerian grind. The paper is Moleskine Cahier notebook. With 912S I prefer not to use any paper rougher than Moleskine Cahier, already starting to feel scratchy on the upstrokes. 

 

@Karmachanic You can try Pilot 912 FA with EF grind. I don’t have a stock FA nib to compare. I am sure that other members will be curious and appreciative when you can share your experience. I am really done searching for modern flex nibs. I am never going to be a professional calligrapher and don’t want to either. I don’t want dip pens even though they are surely the ones to go to if one is really serious about calligraphy. I still want my pens to be beautiful 🙂.

[A Smug Dill]

8 hours ago, como said:

Here are some more writing samples between 149C, 146C and Pilot 912 Spencerian grind.

 

Thank you! I found your writing samples really, really useful — even if, but also precisely because, they illustrated that I would be disappointed by the Montblanc Calligraphy nibs. I can see that the exit strokes on each of the minuscules are broader than the entry strokes, when produced with a Montblanc nib; and I don't believe that to be something dictated by proper Spencerian writing form. That is exactly what I don't want, and why I've always been disappointed by ‘flex’ nibs touted as anywhere from good to excellent by fellow hobbyists who seem keen to produce calligraphic writing.

 

Perhaps it's not simply a case of the nib not springing back to its at-rest original shape quickly enough, come to think of it. It could be that, immediately after producing a thicker stem or bowl, there is more ink between the tines, and so the apparent ink ‘flow’ is not as constrained on the exit stroke as when making an entry stroke for the next disjointed minuscule. I could sorta live with that if every minuscule is produced separately — even where they appear connected or cursive visually — and the ink flow is completely reset for each entry stroke, so that the connectors between minuscules preserve the extra fine hairline width. But, in the spirit of ‘expressiveness’, when trying to write a whole word cursively without pen lifts, most ‘flex’ nibs cannot produce hairline connectors comparable to the first entry stroke in width; so, to me, it is where they  fail .

 

Yet, as you've demonstrated, the Pilot #10 FA nib with the Spencerian grind, in spite of being supported by a juicy ebonite replacement nib, can constrict (or, I suppose, some would say strangle) the ink flow sufficiently on return after a shaded bowl stroke, such that hairline connectors that seem to be de rigueur for that style of calligraphic writing can be produced, all without evidence of ink starvation such as broken lines. Maybe the mechanism that is constricting the ink flow, that makes such a feat possible, is exactly why the pen seems not to cope well with other forms of writing?