Sailor Kiwa Guro vs. Platinum Carbon Black: observations

[Intensity]

I won't add photographs/scans, because there are lots of those already available on the web for both inks.

 

What prompted me to write this post is that I saw some reviews comparing and contrasting the two inks' appearance.  Now that I have bottles of both on hand and tested them against each other in pens for the past two weeks, I would like to make the following observation:

 

They are actually the same color/wash color/sheen level--after each has been in a pen with similar sealing level for a while.  Probably the same basic constituent pigment, just different "base" of diluent, surfactant, mold-inhibiting agents, etc.  Kiwa-Guro has that a strong Sailor ink scent, whereas Platinum has a very faint acrylic paint type smell.

 

What I saw described before and thus believed without verifying was that Kiwa-Guro has more silvery sheen and Carbon Black is a deeper black because it has less reflective sheen.  However that is not the case in practice after the inks have both been in pens for more than 1 day.  One review said Kiwa-Guro is more "brown" vs Carbon Black--that is not the case.  They both wash out to a kind of dirty brownish-black, and they have the same range of hues.

 

There are flow differences between the two inks, and Kiwa-Guro does smear more readily with a water brush, even after a full day of drying, where Carbon Black doesn't.  However I can still make Carbon Black smear if I use a concentrated enough line (like if it's been sitting in a Platinum Preppy for 2 weeks and I make a shaded square--it will noticeably smear with a water brush even after a day of drying).  But given the same amount of ink in a line, written at the same time, Carbon Black is definitely much more waterproof.

 

Given their flow differences, I think the INITIAL fill appearance differs slightly to cause reviewers to make these conclusions about the differences in the two inks' appearance.  Using different pens and nib sizes to compare the two inks can also create an apparent difference, so one needs to use the same pens and nib sizes.

 

But in fact I'm looking really closely at the two side by side, for example on Tomoe River 52g paper, and they have identical amounts of  silvery sheen and they wash to the same brownish dirty hue while fresh.  And I can make one look darker than the other and vice versa.  As Platinum Carbon Black sits in a pen for a week or two, it also gets progressively more shiny as it concentrates.  Same with the Sailor.  After like 2 days in Platinum Preppies, I simply cannot tell them apart in writing or sketching appearance.  I just know that I can wash over Carbon Black lines with another ink, and the lines will stay intact in most cases.  But I cannot do that with Kiwa-Guro, as some of the pigment will smear off, dirtying the overlying ink.

 

There have been other discussions about the difference in ink-making philosophies between Sailor and Platinum, so I won't go into that (likely the explanation for why Kiwa-Guro is less waterproof vs. Carbon Black, for which pens with Slip and Seal mechanism have been developed).  I'm just focusing on the differences (or lack thereof) in appearance.

[A Smug Dill]

33 minutes ago, Intensity said:

However I can still make Carbon Black smear if I use a concentrated enough line (like if it's been sitting in a Platinum Preppy for 2 weeks and I make a shaded square--it will noticeably smear with a water brush even after a day of drying).

 

I don't think it's the same type of smearing (or reason why dried Platinum Carbon Black ink would appear to smears), though. With Sailor Kiwaguro it's something (not clear in colour) water-soluble that runs off the dried ink marks, upon being re-wetted. With Platinum Carbon Black it's some amount of (presumably clear) water-soluble binding agent that gets removed, and allow pigment particles to then be dislodged by friction.

 

 

[Intensity]

Why do you think so?  When I do repeated paper towel chromatography (wet the towel, soak up a circle of ink, put a droplet of water in the center, watch the spread -- for example), the two look basically the same.  I don't see any dark fugitive element in Kiwa-Guro that separates out being any different from Carbon Black.  They behave the same way, and there's a base gray-brown that stays behind for both of them as the bulk of the dark pigment portion travels out.

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, Intensity said:

Why do you think so?

 

Because no colour came off any of the dried Platinum Carbon Black ink marks, whenever I dumped the slip of paper to soak in a beaker or shallow tray of water.

 

Colour runs off ink marks made by Sailor Kiwaguro immediately upon soaking, even without having to be touched by one's finger or a brush.

[Intensity]

13 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Because no colour came off any of the dried Platinum Carbon Black ink marks, whenever I dumped the slip of paper to soak in a beaker or shallow tray of water.

 

Colour runs off ink marks made by Sailor Kiwaguro immediately upon soaking, even without having to be touched by one's finger or a brush.

 

Wouldn't that also possibly mean that Carbon Black has stronger binding agents vs Kiwa Guro, which was designed to flush out more easily from a pen and be less likely to create difficult clogs?

[arcfide]

3 hours ago, Intensity said:

 

Wouldn't that also possibly mean that Carbon Black has stronger binding agents vs Kiwa Guro, which was designed to flush out more easily from a pen and be less likely to create difficult clogs?

 

I think the way to determine that would be to see if soaking is required for lift off or if a dry q-tip or the like can remove or lift off pigments. The pigments, if not bound, should lift off readily when dry, whereas if there is a dye-component, the dye should dry on the page and not lift off until wet. 

[Intensity]

I am not sure if this is helpful, because we know both of these inks contain pigment particles which can lift off when scrubbed.  But just for consistency, I have done that now.  I used a dry cotton swab and scrubbed across writing made with both Carbon Black and Kiwa Guro, and there was sooty pigment on the swab from each of the inks.  The surface of the remaining ink on the page is now more silvery-shiny and pencil lead-like.

[arcfide]

7 hours ago, Intensity said:

I am not sure if this is helpful, because we know both of these inks contain pigment particles which can lift off when scrubbed.  But just for consistency, I have done that now.  I used a dry cotton swab and scrubbed across writing made with both Carbon Black and Kiwa Guro, and there was sooty pigment on the swab from each of the inks.  The surface of the remaining ink on the page is now more silvery-shiny and pencil lead-like.

 

If you rub a line thoroughly until no loose carbon remains, and then resoak the lines, do you get lift off from either? 

[Intensity]

I don’t think I can remove all the pigment particles without destroying the surface of the paper too.  These are permanent inks.

 

I don’t gave high quality chromatography paper—that would be more revealing, I think.

[arcfide]

48 minutes ago, Intensity said:

I don’t think I can remove all the pigment particles without destroying the surface of the paper too.  These are permanent inks.

 

 

I'm just curious in the loose particles, not all of the particles.