Pelikan 200 nibs

[Dip n Scratch]

The present day nibs of the M200 are nail-like compared to that in my M481, which is an 'export' M200 C1985.

I was thinking of a Bock #5 if they are not nails like the current in-house nib for the M200 & they will fit the M200 feed & collar.

 

[Karmachanic]

To confirm.  Are you stating that, in your experience, Bock #5s fit the M200 feed/collar?

[Dip n Scratch]

I am asking if anyone has dismantled the M200 nib unit to see if the OE Pelikan nib matches the dimensions of a #5 nib.

There must have been somebody who wondered if there was anything better from a 3rd party.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 10/9/2021 at 1:16 PM, Dip n Scratch said:

There must have been somebody who wondered if there was anything better from a 3rd party.

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Maybe they're all waiting for someone else to not only be the self-appointed guinea pig, but also be altruistic enough to ‘report’ their experience with those who don't put anything of their own on the line and have no skin in the game, other than for being silently or vocally dissatisfied with the status quo?

[Lam1]

  On 10/9/2021 at 9:49 AM, Dip n Scratch said:

The present day nibs of the M200 are nail-like compared to that in my M481, which is an 'export' M200 C1985.

I was thinking of a Bock #5 if they are not nails like the current in-house nib for the M200 & they will fit the M200 feed & collar.

 

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I don't know about Bock nibs.  But have you considered a vintage Pelikan 400 nib? 

They will fit right in!

Also, sometimes you will find just the nib, without feed and collar, for very reasonable prices. These can be easily installed on M200 feeds, but then there is the matter of whether the plastic feed will keep up with the nib.

 

The 1990's Pelikan M400 nibs are lovely too, with quite some bounce.

[sansenri]

in my experience, yes, 120, 140, and M200/M400 nibs are size 5, meaning the diameter of the collar is 5mm.

That does not mean a Bock #5 nib will certainly fit.

 

An example, I have a spare nib from a 140, without the feed and collar.

I also have a Kaweco nib, from a Sport, with collar and feed.

The diameter of the collar is 5mm.

If I try to fit the nib from the 140 together with the Kaweco collar and feed, the nib fits as far as diameter is concerned, but it will not run down and settle correctly because the Kaweco nib, which is a Bock 060, is shorter, and the feed has a ridge against which the nib stops. The 140 nib is longer so it will not fit correctly, it sticks out too much. A modification of the feed would be needed (which I'm not intentioned to do at the moment).

 

I have not tried fitting a Bock nib (or other size 5) in a Pelikan M200 collar, however.

Possibly it could be worth trying,

be however warned that in general Pelikan nibs are shorter.

 

Another example, I have a spare M800 nib (without feed and collar), which is a size 6  diameter.

I have tried fitting it in a Bock 250 collar with its feed.

It does fit, but it's not very firm. M800 nibs are 32mm long while Bock size 6 nibs are 35 mm long.

 

It is very much a trial and error thing. If you do try (a size 5 Bock steel is not a huge investment) do let us know!

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm wondering if your 481 has a sprung nib...in my W.Germany nibs  don't do what yours does....they do not make themselves or later 200's act like nails.

Nail 1 X/no tine spread. Semi-nail 2X when well mashed.

Regular flex 3 X tine spread when well mashed.

Semi-flex needs half that pressure to reach 3 X; maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to max a regular flex nib to 3 X.

 

My 120 is also a regular flex nib...just never got around to comparing that nib to my 200's. They were close enough in my mind to any other regular flex.

 

I have W.Germany regular flex 200's nibs, two. I have a '90's 200, a 215 Black, Lozenge Pattern (2007)**

And four 2015 to now 200 pens. Amethyst, Star Ruby, Marble Brown and Petrol. (could be another one but it don't pop up right now.)

 

None of them are nails. They are springy regular flex with nib with a 3 X tine spread vs a light down stroke...WHEN WELL MASHED!!

 

The W.Germany nibs; the two 200's, the small 600 or my W.Germany 800 are a slight tad more springy than the '91-97 Regular flex. One has to have both to feel the difference.

They do not have a semi-flex ease & tine spread that you appear to have....

 

When comparing steel nibs of the 200's era, because of the steel nib of one I include the Celebry pens of that '95=2007 era....one is steel the other gold and both =; nice springy '90's style regular flex nibs..

 

I'd forgotten my couple 150's and my 151, which are not nails, but regular flex. Pelikan Perch info brought them back to mind.

"""""The introduction of the M481 preceded the M200 by two years and it appears to have been discontinued when the M200 was introduced (production dates of 1983-1985).  """"" But a gold nib????

There is confusion there Rudiger lists a pen from Penboard.de with a gold nib, Pelikan Perch a gold plated one.

I do find the gold and steel W. Germany nibs as equal to each other as my '90's gold and steel are so equal.

HOWEVER,,,,,,my P488 Silvxa, steel nib (no a gold nib as showed by Rudigier) IS A Semi-nail. There is minimum tine spread....1 1/2 max and there is a tad of tine bend....I normally rate a semi-nail as well maxhed 2X tine spread, but the Silvxa don't do 2 X a light down stroke( part of my discription of a semi-nail vs a nail)...but does have more tine bend than my 605.

 

** I use to trans-mail 200 nibs to a passed pal in England so tried them out and changed my mind....so bought my 215 in it has the same nib as a 200............then later kept buying one 200 after another. And any who have read my BS knows I'm against nails and semi-nails. I'm a fanboy of the 200's regular flex nib....which some say is better than the Pilot one in it is not mushy.

(I can not afford new Japanese and don't know what's what in used, like I do in German market. I'm covered with non-mushy  German Vintage, Semi-vintage and the 200 for nibs I like.)

[Dip n Scratch]

It's down to whether there's the clearance in the pen cap.

The #5 nib I had splashed out for is a Titanium EF, so this is already getting expensive. I am going to get someone better experienced to do the swap.

I do not 'mash' the nib of any of my Pelikans, or of any other pen.

The M481 had seen a fair bit of use as the gold plate is wearing off the steel nib.

Soon after I bought that I found a green marbled M200 new style that had a defective gold EF nib. The tines are not splayed. One tine is not perfectly aligned with the other.

Do you think that we ought to expect a better nib for the price-point of a M200?

I was wondering if it is true that they write broader than is acceptable tolerance for the designated tip width.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

  On 10/11/2021 at 4:58 PM, Dip n Scratch said:

I do not 'mash' the nib of any of my Pelikans, or of any other pen.

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Can't tell what flex it has with out a mash test.

Yet you are calling a new 200 a nail with out testing....or how did you come to that conclusion?

 

 

And no they the 200/150/151's do not write wider than marked, in fact they write 1/2  a width narrower than modern post '97 gold nibs.________

(________They are not as narrow as the miss-marked Japanese nibs....which are a full size narrower than modern....in I don't have any nor will get any, don't know how  much narrower they are than German vintage or semi-vintage.) (I did just find out my '90's Waterman 200's F = my Marble Brown Pelikan 200's EF. But Waterman back in that era was known for making skinny nibs.

 

I do have a chart from the era we are talking about when Pelikan was a thin nib. This cart was from before Japanese pens made it into the mainstream.

Conway Stewart was by far the widest, then came Parker, Sheaffer, Pelikan 400/200/600, the 800 had it's very own narrower nib width between  normal Pelikan and Waterman.

 

The modern 200's write with the same width of Vintage '50-65 nibs, or my Semi-vintage '85-97** nibs.

Yours is two years earlier. 83-84.

**I don't have any '82-85 400's.

 

My P488 Silvxa F writes a normal semi-vintage F wider, than my couple year old Marbled brown 200 EF. My '92-95  381 F matches my Silvxa F.

However my new 200 Petrol which has a M on it...Seems just as skinny as my F's...so I got a skinny M.

That happens with all brands and any era...Tolerance/slop. A Skinny M can = Exactly a Fat F...and if it's inside of tolerance by 2or 3,000th of an inch, you can't tell anyway.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Basic tolerance

Ron Zorn tolerance chart at the end.

 

Every company has it's very own  standard; usually for a good reason.

 

Parker makes or made a fatter nib than Sheaffer, so those who so wished or were so trained by their company of choice back in the day of One Man, One Pen.....(Chevy vs Ford)....to prevent a catastrophe....some Parker user, buying a Sheaffer for his pen of the decade. & vice versa. If Parker made a skinny nib like Sheaffer, why shouldn't a Parker fan not buy a Sheaffer pen...if they were the same width of nib. Such foolishness was avoided.

 

First you have to look at the Eras....Once Pelikan was narrower than both Parker and Sheaffer....Then in '98 Pelikan went over to fat blobby nibs....wider than Parker or Sheaffer. That was done so ball point users could use a fountain pen with out going through all that hassle of learning how to hold a fountain pen. And stiffer nibs that ball point users had a harder time springing or turning nibs into pretzels.

 

MB is also fatter now than it was in semi-vintage and vintage days.

And Japanese nibs are even narrower, than western vintage and semi-vintage days.

 

A Japanese poster said Sailor was the fattest Japanese nib, perhaps just a bit thinner  than pre 2010 Aurora (once the thinnest European nib. I haven't tested a newer Aurora nib, but that was the @ end of the Aurora semi-flex era.)

Japanese nibs are one or more widths narrower than modern Western nibs. They have to be in they are designed for a tiny printed script; not flowing cursive of western nibs.

 

There is a big gap between sizes of western and Japanese nibs. Those who start with Japanese pens always think of Western nibs as fat.

Those of us who started with Western nibs, know Japanese nibs as skinnier than marked size.

 

Japanese nibs could well be 1/2 a width narrower than 'narrow'  Pelikan vintage or semi-vintage nibs......................I don't know if they are even narrower than that.  I had enough $ problems chasing German pens....and wasn't into skinny nibs to start with.

 

Three companies, using their own standards plus tolerance means even with in the company it is only approximate and when compared to another company it's oranges vs tangerines, in each company has it's very own standard.

Then drop in Japanese narrow nibs. Each of their companies also have their very own skinny standards.

 

Someone's F could be another's EF or M or so close measurement don't really matter. Call the others a real Skinny F or a real Fat F.

.....and the new number standard of 1.2-1.0-0.8 are just as off as the letter BB, B or M nib sizes are.

 

Even robot cut steel nibs from Lamy are off in constant width. (I did see the older larger machine....Goulet's vid, shows the smaller new one.)

 

There will be variance.....it is completely normal for three pens of the same width coming off the factory's line to be each a bit different.....and still be with in tolerance...skinny F, fat F, & normal F.

Tolerance is normal, in the AI's haven't taken over and removed slop.....

hum, and why shouldn't the A!'s keep their company's standards instead of being only a universal nib size...??

How will you know what you have in your hand a fat Parker or a skinny Sheaffer......when all nibs are exactly as marked .... only?

 

IMO many people are too OCD and expect every F nib to be exactly the same, even if made from a different company, much less of different eras.

Those boring times are coming in the AI days, until then, enjoy a thick, regular and thin F................and the next company's F that has a different standard so as your normal company....will over lap what you consider 'normal in F vs a skinny M.

 

Nib width is either horseshoe or hand grenade close; only.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv   

Ron said........

"""""Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050

 

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

 

Fat and skinny in this chart are exactly the same..........when it's not, you can not tell if the nib is 1 or 2 thousandths under or above standard. Getting a nib exactly in the middle of tolerance is pure luck. If you get on in the middle, don't play the lottery......you have used up your luck.

 

The only question is does the nib write well. If with in the same company anything  with in horseshoe measurement is good. If an other company hand grenade range is as good as you can expect. Yep, Parker will be fatter than Sheaffer.....or was so once. I don't know about modern.

 

Vintage & semi-vintage Pelikans (and the modern 200's) are @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern fat and blobby gold nib Pelikans. The steel 200's remain true to it's roots.

Vintage, semi-vintage and the 200's write a cleaner line than modern post '97 gold Pelikan nibs.They have tear drop tipping instead of fat round balls.

Don't know about other brands....In 93% of my pens are German.

[Dip n Scratch]

Please forgive my ignorance over the term used here.

Mashing sounded like a rather violent act of abuse upon a nib.

It didn't sound like a technical term.

[Dip n Scratch]

By the way. Bo Bo Olson is absolutely correct about the nature of the tip shape of the latest nibs, ball shape. That M481 has a nib with the older tipping shape.

 

The EF 14K gold nib I have has 2 chicks But the adult apparently has something like a worm in it's beak. It is very lightly marked 'EF'. No idea of it's age & it needs specialist attention to the tines anyway.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Press until the tines spread 3 times  more than a light down stroke is a more gentle way......

However neither semi-flex nor maxi-semi-flex have to be mashed to reach that set's max of 3 X. And compared to either of them, you do have to mash a regular flex to get it out to 3 X.

 

Regular, semi&maxi are part of a 3 X tine spread set.

 

If you press a German semi or maxi nib more than 3 X You Are Guilty Of Nib Abuse!!! And will be hung on the 31st of the coming February.

One must allow you time to make your peace with Djhuty or Thoth as the Greeks call the Egyptian god of writing.

PS... A promised sacrifice of a white pigeon works wonders.

 

[Dip n Scratch]

As I do not have any white pigeons to hand I will be very respectful of the Bock nib.

So i'm not going to see much difference in the writing.

 

Maybe the perceived difference is down to how the way in which the different tip shape of the older steel nib runs across the paper as much as anything else.

[halffriedchicken]

I have dismantled the m200 nib but I don't think I have any Bock nibs so I can't say if they fit. I have tried a Waterman #2 Ideal nib into the m200 nib unit which fit better than the Pelikan nib. One thing to note is that putting the Pelikan nib unit back together is not the easiest thing to do since the fit is very snug and it takes some force to put the nib unit back together with the Pelikan m200 nib so this would be the case with any other nib that may fit. It took several tries to put the collar on and off to get the collar to slide on without deforming the fins on the feed. 

 

I did figure out a hack to use other nibs in the m200 by modifying an old Esterbrook nib unit to use that collar and the ebonite feed in the m200. I made a post about it not too long ago showing how I have been able to fit in several other nibs in the m200 that way.

[Bo Bo Olson]

  On 10/12/2021 at 6:58 AM, Dip n Scratch said:

Maybe the perceived difference is down to how the way in which the different tip shape of the older steel nib runs across the paper as much as anything else.

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With the 200, they still use the tear drop shape of yore.

The modern gold Pelikan nibs are all fat, blobby double round ball nibs.

 

It might well be that different companies used different tear drop shapes for tipping, and or changed those shapes in different eras...................therefore one can see how easy quantum mechanics actually is.

 

Tipping was perfected in WW2. Before that tipping was, under the microscope, rough and lumpy, and chunks fell out.........so the nibs that survived, didn't much lumpy or missing chucnks. In there was the WW2 valuable metal donations, the '80's $800 dollar gold and our own $1,770 and oz.

A fella had a good thread on that and the often changing composition of the rare earth tippings of the 20-30's; even with in the same company. Constantly paying men thousands to save pennies.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 10/13/2021 at 1:22 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

With the 200, they still use the tear drop shape of yore.

The modern gold Pelikan nibs are all fat, blobby double round ball nibs.

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Not so!

 

[Dip n Scratch]

A Smug Dill: Those pictures illustrate what I have in my M200's in terms of tip shapes.

My own personal taste would be for a Pelikan nib that delivered a line more like an Indian F or M.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Oh my God, they have ruined the 200's nib and I didn't notice it.   The somewhat newer Marbled Brown has the normal nib.

That will teach me....both my Ruby red or what ever it's called the semi-glitter red pen and the Petrol has double ball nibs................

Have start grinding nibs now.....

 

In I do swap nibs around on my 200's I can't tell which might ave been original but the B nib on that Ruby Star is 'smaller' in height than in the the tipping of my amethyst.

There are bumps on top of the nibs that didn't use to be there.

 

So dies a rant; blind and in rage than something one counted on got ruined.

 

I have enough 200's, can put in semi-flex nibs ...might as well than fiddle around with older thinner semi-vintage nibs.

Thanks for saving me money.

 

I really got to talk to a gold smith that learned nibs in E.Germany to work for my B&M.

 

Notice the change in my signature!!!

[A Smug Dill]

  On 10/14/2021 at 11:16 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

they have ruined the 200's nib and I didn't notice it.  …‹snip›… ..both my Ruby red or what ever it's called the semi-glitter red pen and the Petrol has double ball nibs

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Those two special editions are Classic 205 (or M205, on account of being piston-filled) models, not M200 models like the (regular production line-up) Brown-Marbled and (2017 special edition) Smoky Quartz.

 

The “first M200 F nib” shown in my picture above came fitted on a Pelikan M200 Gold-Marbled pen, which is a 2019 special edition. The “second M200 F nib” was ordered as a standalone/replacement nib unit some time in the last 12 months from Cult Pens.