Comparison of Pilot Elite nibs

[ethernautrix]

8 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Perhaps some users only familiar with ‘Western’ pens may mistakenly think the Posting nibs on their new(-to-them) Pilot pens were damaged in transit or dropped onto the floor by the seller, and are PO'ed when they see the bent nib tips?

 

Hahahaha! Funny, ASDill!

[troglokev]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:29 AM, Karmachanic said:

@troglokev Please tell us the line with of the paper shown.  Thank you.

The paper is Rhodia lined 80 gsm.

[awa54]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:36 PM, Karmachanic said:

 

 

Maybe cuz the Pilot Custom 823 pen is not a Pilot Elite pen, and Pilot Elite pens don't come with an FA nib?

 

Perhaps even on this forum (?) pictures of a 1960s E (Elite) fitted with a falcon nib have been posted. The pictured nib had a similar shape to the current FA, with relief cutouts to facilitate extreme tine deflection. IIRC, it was labeled "FALCON" rather than <FA>.

[awa54]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:09 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

Perhaps some users only familiar with ‘Western’ pens may mistakenly think the Posting nibs on their new(-to-them) Pilot pens were damaged in transit or dropped onto the floor by the seller, and are PO'ed when they see the bent nib tips?

 

In the opposite direction, I've seen Sheaffer TD and Snorkel nibs that some misguided soul "straightened" to remove the upturn in the tines...  

[awa54]

@liubrian

 

That's the first mention of an oblique Pilot nib I've seen... very cool!

[Number99]

The Pilot Fountain Pen's "Posting" nib was developed in January 1926 for posting bookkeeping.

 

 I have an article that explains it. This article is based on "Fountain Pen and Science" (written by Akira Watanabe, Chief of the Pilot Fountain Pen Production Department) serialized in "Pilot Times" published in 1926, so I think you can trust it. (Accurate article based on primary information)

 

 I've posted about this in the Chinese sub-forum in the past.

 

*The article is in Japanese, please add Japanese to the translation language of your browser and read it.

http://pelikan.livedoor.biz/archives/50933381.html

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/365670-hoping-someone-could-id-these-pens-for-me/?do=findComment&comment=4525319

 

 

 

 

[PithyProlix]

55 minutes ago, Number99 said:

The Pilot Fountain Pen's "Posting" nib was developed in January 1926 for posting bookkeeping.

 

 I have an article that explains it. This article is based on "Fountain Pen and Science" (written by Akira Watanabe, Chief of the Pilot Fountain Pen Production Department) serialized in "Pilot Times" published in 1926, so I think you can trust it. (Accurate article based on primary information)

 

 I've posted about this in the Chinese sub-forum in the past.

 

*The article is in Japanese, please add Japanese to the translation language of your browser and read it.

http://pelikan.livedoor.biz/archives/50933381.html

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/365670-hoping-someone-could-id-these-pens-for-me/?do=findComment&comment=4525319

 

 

Thank you very much for this and sharing the article! I may have to read it a few times - I'm not really understanding much of it for now but that's probably partly me and partly the quality of Google's translation. The text on the Manifold and Coarse nibs seems valuable too.

[awa54]

DeepL translation:

 

Commentary [Fountain Pens and Science] Part 21
Chapter 21, in which three types of special pens are described in detail...

　At the time of the introduction of this chapter, two years had passed since Chapter 10, which introduced 15 types of pen nibs. Then, in January 1929, "Posting," "Manifold," and "Course" were launched, and the sales results in the first four months after the launch were apparently better than expected. Therefore, Mr. Watanabe is also full of confidence. By explaining the three special pens here once again, it appears that he is trying to educate the store owners.

　The year was 1929, the year Pelikan made its first fountain pen. Pilot was already a few steps ahead. As for the nibs, Pelikan outsourced nib production to Montblanc at that time.

1) Posting [Extra fine, for bookkeeping. Hard elasticity and rounded tip.
　 Posting is also called "accountant," but it originally meant "posting from a diary book to a general ledger. Therefore, it is supposed to be written in gothic, easy-to-read letters at a slow speed.

　However, Pilot's posting pens, which are fine but still have a good writing feel, were favored by students for their writing. In other words, it is a nib that was destined to be replaced by a water-based ballpoint pen in the future.

　The nib is long, the iridium is rounded despite being ultra-fine, and the base metal is thick. The elasticity is very hard despite the long nib, and the width of the line is constant. I wondered if it was too hard, but when I dipped the nib in ink and tried to write with it, I found that as soon as the nib touched the paper, I could easily write with it. The ink flow is also said to be extremely good. For bookkeeping, it is better to have poor ink flow, so the target is for general use. This pen may have been released to teach Japanese people who like fine writing how easy it is to write with a pen that has a hard writing feel.

　As one would expect from Mr. Watanabe. He also explains why the ink flow is so good despite the ultra-fine tip. In posting, the nib is made to lean against the pen nib to improve ink flow. However, if the nib is long and the nib's leaning is weakened, the character width becomes thicker when fine movement of the stroke occurs. Therefore, the nib is made with a thicker base metal to prevent the slightest movement of the pen's stroke.

　Conversely, if the metal is made thinner, the pen will have a dull writing feel like the double-bellied ONOTO. All nibs made by prewar British makers such as ONOTO and Swan, which are reputed to be soft, have a thin base metal. The "secret technique for modifying softness" by Mr. Rustom is also to shave the back of the nib to make it softer to write with.

(2) Manifold [medium size, extremely hard elasticity, for carbon copying].
　Mr. Watanabe revealed an interesting fact. In Japan at that time, when writing on carbon paper, the original was kept by us and a copy was sent to the other party. In today's Pelican Mail, the client would receive a copy slip and the carrier would use the original. Mr. Watanabe says that since that time, that was against the etiquette of correspondence. It was the other way around overseas at the time, he said. In contrast, nowadays, Pelican Mail gives the original to the client, and the carrier uses a copy. It seems to have become the overseas custom of the time. The difference is that nowadays, the client writes the slip, but back then, it was written by the party receiving the order. That is why the client always used a manifold fountain pen. It is interesting to understand the change of the times.

　The tip of the manifold fountain pen is particularly short, and the sharpening is very slight. The Pelikan nib has two heart holes, one on the top and one on the bottom, and the cut end is only up to the hole closest to the iridium.

　Whether manifolds or postings, these nibs overturned the conventional wisdom that a hard nib would not produce enough ink. The nib's weak nib was quite an adventure at the time, wasn't it?　


(3) Course [Bold pen that can write the same vertical and horizontal lines
　I had been using "coarse" without knowing its meaning well, but now I finally understand it thanks to Mr. Watanabe's explanation. Coarse" means "blunt. A pen that can write blunt, bold lines of the same thickness both vertically and horizontally. The pen's sales pitch seems to be that it "can write sturdy, masculine lines that eschew technicalities.

　The nib of the course is also made of a thicker base metal to make the elasticity harder, but it is said to be adjusted so that it does not become too hard. The current Pilot's course seems to be iridium without any corners like soybeans, but in those days, the course was sharpened by cutting off the paper surface at an angle and then rounding off the corners. In other words, the sharpening was similar to that of Sailor's Zoom. However, in the Zoom, the iridium tip is sharpened in a triangular shape, but in the Course, it remains square.

　The early "Takokichi Special" and the early "Kyokudai" of Dr. Fountain Pen are similar to this. It is best when sharpened according to the writer's writing angle, but at that time, KOJIMA shipped the products sharpened to a general angle. I think the current courses are close to the sharpening of the curved surface on the whole surface, probably due to the reflection of those days. I have already adjusted all of my courses, so I have forgotten the original shape...so I have no proof.


Explanation【Fountain pen and science】Part 20　
Commentary【Fountain pen and science】Part 19　
Commentary "Fountain Pens and Science" No.18　
Commentary on "The Ten-thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.17
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.16
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.15
Commentary "Ten-nenpens and Science" No.14
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.13 　
Commentary on "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.12　
Commentary on "The Ten-thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.11
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.10
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.9
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.8
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.7
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.6
Commentary "Ten Thousand Year Writing Brush and Science" No.5
Commentary "Ten-nenpens and Science" No.4
Commentary "Ten-nenpens and Science" No.3
Commentary "Ten-nenpens and Science" No.2
Commentary "Fountain Pens and Science" No.1

Translated with DeepL

[liubrian]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:28 PM, Number99 said:

The Pilot Fountain Pen's "Posting" nib was developed in January 1926 for posting bookkeeping.

 

 I have an article that explains it. This article is based on "Fountain Pen and Science" (written by Akira Watanabe, Chief of the Pilot Fountain Pen Production Department) serialized in "Pilot Times" published in 1926, so I think you can trust it. (Accurate article based on primary information)

 

 I've posted about this in the Chinese sub-forum in the past.

 

*The article is in Japanese, please add Japanese to the translation language of your browser and read it.

http://pelikan.livedoor.biz/archives/50933381.html

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/365670-hoping-someone-could-id-these-pens-for-me/?do=findComment&comment=4525319

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much for sharing this!  It's a relief that there is now properly sourced information that debunks the "postcard" explanation, as discussed earlier in the thread.

[Maurizio]

Thanks for posting the English translation awa54. An interesting read. 

[Number99]

The translation will remain here even if the linked article disappears.

 

Deep learning is also useful, I have it installed right away and am taking advantage of it.

 

Thanks.

[Number99]

I found a blog post that features a 1971 EF nib sterling silver Pilot Elite S with a price tag sticker printed on the barrel that reads "ポスティング 極細"（Posting Extra Fine）.

The concept of "posting" nibs as defined in the 1920s seems to have changed with each era.

I would speculate/consider that the concepts describing other special nibs may also vary from era to era.

 

*Image from blog post at link below.

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/omas1972/imgs/d/3/d38ace25.jpg

 

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/omas1972/imgs/6/1/61e41cec.jpg

 

Original blog post with image link.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/omas1972/archives/36287314.html

 

 

[PithyProlix]

I would like to add to the discussion of Posting nibs, if I may, please.

 

From my discussion with Mike Masuyama, the bent down tip of Pilot's Posting nib has the effect of creating a narrower line width. It simulates holding the pen at a steeper angle - the 'foot' of the nib (i. e. the part that contacts the paper) rotates closer to the tip. This should be familiar to anyone who has held a pen with a bullet-shaped tip more upright. He also noted that "in the old days" people tended to hold their pens at a much shallower angle than folks typically do today. I think his implication with noting historical writing angles is that, in the past, the line width when folks were using Posting nibs (at a relatively shallow angle) might be similar to line widths of folks using F nibs today (at a relatively steep angle). The bend down also makes a Posting nib feel stiffer but the nib is not actually any stiffer. (I think this is the same as holding a pen with a conventional nib at a steeper angle: the writing feel is typically stiffer.)

 

He also explained there is a similar, but opposite, effect with Waverly nibs, which are bent backwards. The shallower effective angle gives a bouncier feeling when writing. I think the Waverly's backwards bend also puts the nib's foot at a slightly wider part of the tipping, yielding a slightly wider line and perhaps a smoother writing feel - he didn't tell me this directly but I believe the implication was there.

 

My apologies if this information is posted elsewhere on FPN. My apologies also to Mike Masuyama if I have incorrectly interpreted and/or inferred his thoughts.

[Harold]

6 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

I would like to add to the discussion of Posting nibs, if I may, please.

 

From my discussion with Mike Masuyama, the bent down tip of Pilot's Posting nib has the effect of creating a narrower line width. It simulates holding the pen at a steeper angle - the 'foot' of the nib (i. e. the part that contacts the paper) rotates closer to the tip. This should be familiar to anyone who has held a pen with a bullet-shaped tip more upright. He also noted that "in the old days" people tended to hold their pens at a much shallower angle than folks typically do today. I think his implication with noting historical writing angles is that, in the past, the line width when folks were using Posting nibs (at a relatively shallow angle) might be similar to line widths of folks using F nibs today (at a relatively steep angle). The bend down also makes a Posting nib feel stiffer but the nib is not actually any stiffer. (I think this is the same as holding a pen with a conventional nib at a steeper angle: the writing feel is typically stiffer.)

 

He also explained there is a similar, but opposite, effect with Waverly nibs, which are bent backwards. The shallower effective angle gives a bouncier feeling when writing. I think the Waverly's backwards bend also puts the nib's foot at a slightly wider part of the tipping, yielding a slightly wider line and perhaps a smoother writing feel - he didn't tell me this directly but I believe the implication was there.

 

My apologies if this information is posted elsewhere on FPN. My apologies also to Mike Masuyama if I have incorrectly interpreted and/or inferred his thoughts.

It sort of simulates holding the pen at a steeper angle, but in a more elegant way that still gives you some bounce from the lower part of the tines towards the breather hole.

 

If you hold a pen at a steep angle, obviously the tines aren't going to flex as much as when you hold it at a shallower angle(and if you hold it completely vertically, they won't be able to flex at all). The tines are being crushed into the paper rather than being able to do the splits to get out of the way of your pressure. The downward bend of a posting nib biases the nib towards getting out of the way in an up-and-down direction rather than a side-to-side direction. If you press hard enough it will open up a little bit, but it prefers to move up-and-down instead.

 

You can try this yourself with your fingers or by taping two pieces of thin metal rod together that you can bend with pliers: if you hold your index and middle finger straight out like tines and drag them across your desk with pressure, your fingers will split apart; if you do the same with your fingers bent down, the first thing your fingers try to do is to unbend the curve in your fingers or hinge up-and-down around your knuckles.

 

The reason this maintains such a fine line under pressure compared to an extra fine is two-fold: firstly, a Japanese extra fine has a very narrow line width(let's say 0.25mm), so if you write with even slight pressure, that might increase the tine gap by 0.10-0.15mm. Now we're talking the line width of a fine or fine-medium instead of an extra fine. Writing at speed, it's almost impossible to write with a light enough hand to prevent that completely. The same thing happens on say a broad nib, but because we're starting with a 0.60mm+ line width, you hardly even notice the impact. Secondly, spreading the tines increases the ink flow, which also widens your line to varying degrees depending on the ink and paper.

 

The reason they're called posting nibs, by the way, is because the Japanese postal system would send these crappy, thin little postcards across the whole country very cheaply. Since the paper quality wasn't that great and you obviously have limited writing space, you'd want a dry nib with a narrow line width to get as much bang for your buck(or yen) as possible.

[PithyProlix]

2 hours ago, Harold said:

It sort of simulates holding the pen at a steeper angle, but in a more elegant way that still gives you some bounce from the lower part of the tines towards the breather hole.

 

EDIT: Sorry, I don't get it. A steeper angle does not give more bounce. Sorry, I misread - somehow my brain processed what you wrote as "more bounce".

 

2 hours ago, Harold said:

The reason they're called posting nibs, by the way, is because the Japanese postal system would send these crappy, thin little postcards across the whole country very cheaply. Since the paper quality wasn't that great and you obviously have limited writing space, you'd want a dry nib with a narrow line width to get as much bang for your buck(or yen) as possible.

 

Please see @Number99's comment a few posts up and the translation of the Japanese article he linked to in that post provided by @awa54

 

The postcard explanation seems to be an 'urban legend' of sorts - I don't believe anyone has cited any evidence to back it up.

Edited October 18, 2023 by PithyProlix

[PithyProlix]

Regarding Posting nibs again: Richard Binder has it correct in his 'Pen Glossipedia' (see definition 3 of "post"): http://www.richardspens.com/ref/gloss/P.htm#post

 

"To enter figures in a ledger, as in accounting. Accounting nibs are commonly used for posting and are sometimes referred to as posting nibs."

[MYU]

This is a great resource. Thanks for making it @troglokev!