Pelikan is in Trouble

[JCC123]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:18 AM, Karmachanic said:

 

And then there's Richemont ....

That would be the most logical. It wouldn't pass the FTC here since it would essentially turn into a monopoly but they're foreign companies so they wouldn't be under the same regulation. But Montblanc was also experiencing the same problems as Pelikan when they were acquired. Richmond then immediately double the price of their products and began removing retailers from their network. The strategy was simple, jack up the price, decrease supply in order to drive perceived brand exclusivity and remove non brand owned retailers in order to enforce pricing structure. 

 

That strategy has paid off enormously for them as Montblanc sold more pens during the pandemic and at much higher price points. Richmond has doubled the price again since that original double. That's why a simple Meisterstuck ballpoint now costs four times as much as when they acquired the company.

 

Montblanc doing well

[A Smug Dill]

10 minutes ago, JCC123 said:

That means if you want to produce at the same cost as Germany, the quality will and can be much higher when produced in China.

 

Can be much higher? Firstly, it requires the presupposition that the quality can be much higher. Call it my individual limitation, but I cannot imagine what would be noticeably different in a Pelikan M200 Brown-Marbled fountain pen that is produced with much higher quality, without changing the technical design or actual materials used, whether that's done in Germany, China or Ebonia.

 

Assuming it is possible for production quality of, say, an M200 to be much higher, but Pelikan has traditionally chose to forgo that room for improvement for cost reasons, then OK, I can accept that it is possible for the Chinese to produce some units of it at much higher quality without increasing total production cost per unit.

 

However, given the inconsistent quality control in physical products coming out of China, I certainly wouldn't bank on the claim that the quality ‘will’ be much higher for a randomly selected unit picked out from the production line, or purchased by a random consumer from some online seller who'd doesn't do his/her/its own QC inspections upon receiving goods from the Chinese factory.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

8 minutes ago, JCC123 said:

Why would you say that a Chinese produced pen would be less? The Chinese have a reputation for producing quality products that are above their price points. Why? Because they have lower production costs. A comparably priced Pelikan can be produced for far less in China than in Germany. That means if you want to produce at the same cost as Germany, the quality will and can be much higher when produced in China. It's all relative. You know what kind of pen would a Wing Sung price point produce in Germany? A Bic.

you just proved my point. The Chinese make a bic, for the price of a bic.

The Germans would charge 20X more for the same product

 

So why oh why would anyone pay German manufacturing prices for a pen made in China that should cost Chinese prices?...

 

Now, Why do I say I suspect a Chinese pen would be less good?

Lets take a trip to the 1990's.

All through the '90s I wore Doc Martens boots. Several pair. Made in England, by the people who now make Solovair boots. And they rocked. Anywho, in the very early 2000s, approx 2002/2003ish, I needed a new pair of Doc Martens, so I went to the mall, and bought a pair, barely even opened the box, just grabbed the same style, leather type and size I had been buying for almost a decade, paid and was happily on my way.

A couple of months later, I finally decided it was time to switch to those new boots. And lo and behold... they didn't fit worth a C%$#! The leather was cut way too big (and crooked), and when I laced them up both sides of the boot touched across the front , instead of having the nice even 1.5-2" spacing they had had for the last decade of my buying them... 

And this was both boots! This wasn't a fluke on one boot!

And then, confused, I though WTH?.... they've been making these virtually unchanged since the freaking 60s!

And then I saw it: on the box... it said "made in china"

 

So I had paid full English Manufacture Doc Martens prices, for boots that were CLEARLY substandard quality.

And of course, I had waited to open them, so by then it was too late to return them. Half a decade later when I was moving, I threw them in the garbage, still in the box. I have not EVER even considered buying a Doc Marten's product since that day.

And I never will. That company has permanently lost my support. 

 

Now I'm not saying everything made in China is garbage, my iPhones and MacBooks have been fine. What I AM saying is that it appears that unless the company contracting out the work to Chinese factories personally verifies and ensures quality... well, it seems quality can suffer somewhat. And that is exactly what I expect would happen if a "holding company" that doesn't give two whits about a pen company they "own" suddenly fired their workers and contracted their manufacturing out to China.

If Pelikan's manufacturing were contracted out to a Chinese company, I think we can safely assume it's because "Pelikan" has no intention of paying anywhere near German production costs. So why would I expect it to remain at a high quality standard? Why would I expect them to spend any more than they absolutely have to to make the pens? At that point they are already in "max cost cutting mode". Moving production "overseas" usually equates to lower quality product in the name of saving costs.

You made the point yourself: Germany could barely make a bic for the price of a Wing Sung.

 

Now if Pelikan wanted to, they could ensure that Chinese made pens would have the same standard of quality as the German made pens, (see my comment re iPhones above)

It would cost more than the "bare minimum" so I feel it's unlikely, but it is possible.

 

Assuming they did ensure good quality, it would still be at a substantial savings in production costs. So why would a consumer be inclined to pay the same prices, knowing that they were now paying significantly more in relation to the cost of production?

Part of the reason I would consider buying a Pelikan, if it were in my budget, is because I know that the labour costs were very high to make it, and "German engineering" has it's reputation (wether its earned or not is up for debate...) so that partly justifies the additional cost. It's the same reason people pay for more for "Swiss made" watches (lets not get into that can of worms...) Swiss labour is expensive and has a good reputation, that helps justify the prices. But if Pelikan fired all their German manufacturing employees, put them out of work, and contracted out the work to Chinese factories and then expected people to pay the same prices as before?! Why? Why would anyone want to support that kind of bold greed? Anyone who KNEW what had happened at the company (and lets face it, mostly pen nerds buy Pelikans, so most buyers would know what happened) would feel instantly ripped off knowing the were paying so much more over the base production costs for the same product but with less history and less reputation.

 

Admittedly in this scenario you are getting the same product for the same price, but you as a buyer know that the company has compromised its history and reputation and workers in order to save a buck. Everything comes down to what a customer thinks the product is worth and that is not only the quality of the product, but also the assumed costs of manufacture.

 

For the record: I like my wing sungs, and yup, they DO punch above their weight class/price range. But I wouldn't spend real Parker "51" money on a WS 601. I know it's made of inferior (but not totally garbage) plastics and I know the nib doesn't have nearly the tipping that a real "51" does. It's not the same quality of product. And I know that if WS cut their margins, I could likely buy it for less than $10bucks and they would still be making decent money on it! It's a good value at $20. But it's not a $100 pen. 

 

One last thing: regarding this line "The Chinese have a reputation for producing quality products that are above their price points."

I dunno where you live, but that's not at all the reputation Chinese made products have here.

Where I live, "Made in China" is not a byword for "high quality", it's another way of saying "made a cheaply as we think we can get away with" 

[Karmachanic]

5 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

However, given the inconsistent quality control in physical products coming out of China

 

Smart phones and compters.

[Aether]

4 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

One last thing: regarding this line "The Chinese have a reputation for producing quality products that are above their price points."

I dunno where you live, but that's not at all the reputation Chinese made products have here.

Where I live, "Made in China" is not a byword for "high quality", it's another way of saying "made a cheaply as we think we can get away with" 

 

People used the exact same line a while ago about Japanese goods.  Things change... sometime more slowly than desired, but change does come.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

8 hours ago, Aether said:

 

People used the exact same line a while ago about Japanese goods.  Things change... sometime more slowly than desired, but change does come.

that may very well be true (AFAIK that was only true back in the '50s...) 

But my point is that here, now, in 2021, Chinese made goods don't have a sterling reputation. And to imply otherwise is just wrong.

[Aether]

Except that my point is that change is happening as we write.  Looking at fountain pens, Chinese brands have been getting better over the last 5 years, for example.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

13 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

you just proved my point. The Chinese make a bic, for the price of a bic.

The Germans would charge 20X more for the same product

 

So why oh why would anyone pay German manufacturing prices for a pen made in China that should cost Chinese prices?...

 

Now, Why do I say I suspect a Chinese pen would be less good?

Lets take a trip to the 1990's.

All through the '90s I wore Doc Martens boots. Several pair. Made in England, by the people who now make Solovair boots. And they rocked. Anywho, in the very early 2000s, approx 2002/2003ish, I needed a new pair of Doc Martens, so I went to the mall, and bought a pair, barely even opened the box, just grabbed the same style, leather type and size I had been buying for almost a decade, paid and was happily on my way.

A couple of months later, I finally decided it was time to switch to those new boots. And lo and behold... they didn't fit worth a C%$#! The leather was cut way too big (and crooked), and when I laced them up both sides of the boot touched across the front , instead of having the nice even 1.5-2" spacing they had had for the last decade of my buying them... 

And this was both boots! This wasn't a fluke on one boot!

And then, confused, I though WTH?.... they've been making these virtually unchanged since the freaking 60s!

And then I saw it: on the box... it said "made in china"

 

So I had paid full English Manufacture Doc Martens prices, for boots that were CLEARLY substandard quality.

And of course, I had waited to open them, so by then it was too late to return them. Half a decade later when I was moving, I threw them in the garbage, still in the box. I have not EVER even considered buying a Doc Marten's product since that day.

And I never will. That company has permanently lost my support. 

 

Now I'm not saying everything made in China is garbage, my iPhones and MacBooks have been fine. What I AM saying is that it appears that unless the company contracting out the work to Chinese factories personally verifies and ensures quality... well, it seems quality can suffer somewhat. And that is exactly what I expect would happen if a "holding company" that doesn't give two whits about a pen company they "own" suddenly fired their workers and contracted their manufacturing out to China.

If Pelikan's manufacturing were contracted out to a Chinese company, I think we can safely assume it's because "Pelikan" has no intention of paying anywhere near German production costs. So why would I expect it to remain at a high quality standard? Why would I expect them to spend any more than they absolutely have to to make the pens? At that point they are already in "max cost cutting mode". Moving production "overseas" usually equates to lower quality product in the name of saving costs.

You made the point yourself: Germany could barely make a bic for the price of a Wing Sung.

 

Now if Pelikan wanted to, they could ensure that Chinese made pens would have the same standard of quality as the German made pens, (see my comment re iPhones above)

It would cost more than the "bare minimum" so I feel it's unlikely, but it is possible.

 

Assuming they did ensure good quality, it would still be at a substantial savings in production costs. So why would a consumer be inclined to pay the same prices, knowing that they were now paying significantly more in relation to the cost of production?

Part of the reason I would consider buying a Pelikan, if it were in my budget, is because I know that the labour costs were very high to make it, and "German engineering" has it's reputation (wether its earned or not is up for debate...) so that partly justifies the additional cost. It's the same reason people pay for more for "Swiss made" watches (lets not get into that can of worms...) Swiss labour is expensive and has a good reputation, that helps justify the prices. But if Pelikan fired all their German manufacturing employees, put them out of work, and contracted out the work to Chinese factories and then expected people to pay the same prices as before?! Why? Why would anyone want to support that kind of bold greed? Anyone who KNEW what had happened at the company (and lets face it, mostly pen nerds buy Pelikans, so most buyers would know what happened) would feel instantly ripped off knowing the were paying so much more over the base production costs for the same product but with less history and less reputation.

 

Admittedly in this scenario you are getting the same product for the same price, but you as a buyer know that the company has compromised its history and reputation and workers in order to save a buck. Everything comes down to what a customer thinks the product is worth and that is not only the quality of the product, but also the assumed costs of manufacture.

 

For the record: I like my wing sungs, and yup, they DO punch above their weight class/price range. But I wouldn't spend real Parker "51" money on a WS 601. I know it's made of inferior (but not totally garbage) plastics and I know the nib doesn't have nearly the tipping that a real "51" does. It's not the same quality of product. And I know that if WS cut their margins, I could likely buy it for less than $10bucks and they would still be making decent money on it! It's a good value at $20. But it's not a $100 pen. 

 

One last thing: regarding this line "The Chinese have a reputation for producing quality products that are above their price points."

I dunno where you live, but that's not at all the reputation Chinese made products have here.

Where I live, "Made in China" is not a byword for "high quality", it's another way of saying "made a cheaply as we think we can get away with" 

A bit off topic. But even the made in England Docs are not much better quality than the made in China Docs.

I worked at a shoe store years ago...

 

It may be a better investment to purchase the made in America Red Wings. Sales can be had, and the boots can last at least a decade with minimal maintenance.

[samasry]

17 minutes ago, Aether said:

Except that my point is that change is happening as we write.  Looking at fountain pens, Chinese brands have been getting better over the last 5 years, for example.

 

They are still struggling with  more mind boggling products like Toaster ovens.  I have one of the  Kitchen-Aid  toasters that has a timer that keeps the oven running after the set-time is over and threatens to burn the owner's  house.

 

The majority of Chinese products  do exhibit  catastrophic failures  that  render the money paid for them a complete waste.

 

We are forced to buy this  bleep  because of the  retarded globalization and  I have not seen significant  improvement in the Chinese bleep-y  products in the past 40 years during which we've  had the mis-fortune of  being forced to buy them.

[sgphototn]

14 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

Where I live, "Made in China" is not a byword for "high quality", it's another way of saying "made a cheaply as we think we can get away with" 

For me it's a toss up between many Chinese products and Mexican products for the worst. There's no way I would buy a Mexican made or assembled car or trucks nor would I buy Kia/Hyundai. They're worse than Chryslers and Chevrolet and that's saying a lot.

 

But I do like dim sum and burritos so that makes up for Chinese and Mexican failures otherwise.

[Aether]

And yet y'all conveniently overlook how many 'home' produced products are actually outsourced to China.  As I note, quality in manufacture is on the rise in China. I appreciate that probably rankles a few Westerners.

 

 

[samasry]

Yup,   we needed the naked  gloating   

 

Perhaps the so called Westerners  would finally wake up

[Aether]

Deleted

Edited July 18, 2021 by Aether
Spitting in the wind

[sgphototn]

50 minutes ago, Aether said:

And yet y'all conveniently overlook how many 'home' produced products are actually outsourced to China.  As I note, quality in manufacture is on the rise in China. I appreciate that probably rankles a few Westerners.

 

 

I actually welcome quality improvements from China, Mexico, and all countries. I like I can purchase certain items from Chinese manufacturers that far exceed what is produced in America for far less money.

 

When China can make cars like Hondas and Toyotas with the same longevity and resale value but for less money, most US car manufacturers will hear the death-rattle that's been coming for 40 years or more. That's the result of poor quality, high labor costs, and lackdasical workers.

 

I welcome quality from any source country that can do the job.

 

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

2 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

A bit off topic. But even the made in England Docs are not much better quality than the made in China Docs.

I worked at a shoe store years ago...

 

It may be a better investment to purchase the made in America Red Wings. Sales can be had, and the boots can last at least a decade with minimal maintenance.

If I was to buy a doc Martens style boot, I would buy Solovair. That's the company that made them in the 70's-90's under contract. When they lost the contract to china, they simply started making their own version that has silver stitching instead of yellow

AND they don't have the "made in England" premium that Doc Martens now charges. Solovairs sell for about the price of a pair of Chinese docs.  I like redwings, BUT, to me, a 6" boot is not a boot! it's a shoe. So I will not spend that kind of money on a pair of them. IF redwing made an Iron Ranger in an 8" boot, and I could get it in Canada and I could try them on before buying (buying boots online has been an unmitigated disaster for me) then I would consider getting them. But they don't make an 8" and show no signs of making any.  And the price of Nicks or Whites are just outrageous. Absolutely not in my budget and never will be. Regardless of longevity of the product, I simply cannot pay their prices up front.

 

1 hour ago, sgphototn said:

For me it's a toss up between many Chinese products and Mexican products for the worst. There's no way I would buy a Mexican made or assembled car or trucks nor would I buy Kia/Hyundai. They're worse than Chryslers and Chevrolet and that's saying a lot.

 

But I do like dim sum and burritos so that makes up for Chinese and Mexican failures otherwise.

My dad steadfastly insists (based on evidence and experience) that Bosch automotive products produced in Mexico were/are garbage, while those made in German were decent quality.

As to what car to buy? We are a hardcore Toyota household. If not Toyota, then at least something Japanese.

 

53 minutes ago, Aether said:

And yet y'all conveniently overlook how many 'home' produced products are actually outsourced to China.  As I note, quality in manufacture is on the rise in China. I appreciate that probably rankles a few Westerners.

 

 

Important to note is that the "well made" Chinese products, ie: apple products, etc, are generally contracted out by "western" companies who ENSURE that the Chinese manufacturers maintain quality control.

And I said as much; if the company contracting it ENSURES quality then it CAN happen. But most companies who contract out to Chinese manufacturers are doing so in an effort to cut any and all costs possible, and the first of those costs to go, even before they move manufacturing to china, is quality control.

 

Eventually, on a long enough time scale, Chinese manufacturing may well by default be excellent quality. If and when that time comes, you can also expect that their manufacturing costs will go up commensurately, at which point companies will simply shift their manufacturing to some other country. One that makes "meh" to poor quality products, but does so cheaper than china does.

[JCC123]

So, I don't have the time to read some of the long posts since there's really no need for such long post to prove a simple point. So here's mine. Those of you complaining about the lack of quality coming from China, please blame your fellow countryman. They're the ones who are telling the Chinese manufacturing to produce junk. The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing the best of anything, it's a function of how much the Western companies that outsource want to squeeze margins. Most of them want to maximize profits and therefore have told the Chinese plants to produce at the lowest cost and quality. Apple for example, have some of the highest quality goods coming from there because they chose to maximize quality. Furthermore, many CEOs of Western countries have already stated for a fact that they can't build it in their own country even if they wanted to because they no longer have the tooling, engineers, knowledge, skills, etc to scale.

 

BTW, there are also a lot of complaints of shoddy cars produced by Americans from Germany car companies like Mercedes and BMW of their plants in the south. Everyone complains but no one is willing to sacrifice profits to produce a better product.

[JCC123]

3 hours ago, samasry said:

 

They are still struggling with  more mind boggling products like Toaster ovens.  I have one of the  Kitchen-Aid  toasters that has a timer that keeps the oven running after the set-time is over and threatens to burn the owner's  house.

 

The majority of Chinese products  do exhibit  catastrophic failures  that  render the money paid for them a complete waste.

 

We are forced to buy this  bleep  because of the  retarded globalization and  I have not seen significant  improvement in the Chinese bleep-y  products in the past 40 years during which we've  had the mis-fortune of  being forced to buy them.

This, for example, is my case in point. If you were a middle manager tasks with outsourcing Kitchen-Aid toasters and your bonus is tied to how much margins you can squeeze out of the project, would you sacrifice your bonus in order to produce a better product with lower margins? I didn't think so...

 

So is this the Chinese plants fault or yours?

[Uncial]

....and here I was popping back into this thread about Pelikan but its yet another thread highjacked by pedants arguing economics....and toasters...and Mexican cars...and Doc Martens....I swear, I don't think I've ever seen so many threads repeatedly hijacked to talk economics on a single forum. 

 

Can't you just create a thread somewhere in 'chat' or something and duke it out till doomsday on one thread rather than twisting every thread you post on in this direction?

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

14 minutes ago, Uncial said:

....and here I was popping back into this thread about Pelikan but its yet another thread highjacked by pedants arguing economics....and toasters...and Mexican cars...and Doc Martens....I swear, I don't think I've ever seen so many threads repeatedly hijacked to talk economics on a single forum. 

 

Can't you just create a thread somewhere in 'chat' or something and duke it out till doomsday on one thread rather than twisting every thread you post on in this direction?

 

You’re absolutely right. A thread about how Pelikan is in financial trouble has nothing to do with global economics. 
 

thank you for setting us all straight. 
 

 

[Uncial]

It has sod all to do with Mexican toasters or Asian boots