Pelikan is in Trouble

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

  On 7/18/2021 at 10:43 PM, Uncial said:

It has sod all to do with Mexican toasters or Asian boots

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sure thing. 
 

sorry we forced you to read and post on this thread. Please forgive us

[sgphototn]

  On 7/18/2021 at 10:43 PM, Uncial said:

It has sod all to do with Mexican toasters or Asian boots

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It has to do with perceptions of the state of manufacturing in various countries and whether Pelikan might choose to make their pens in another country. Pure economics.

 

Whether Pelikan continues or not really makes not a wit to me. They've had a good run.

 

But economics is what's behind their problems. 

 

What's been expressed is that moving their production elsewhere and how it may be perceived. How that might affect the public perceptions of quality. That's also economics.

 

I welcome the discussion as it does related to the topic, "Pelikan is in Trouble."  Why? Economics. 

 

 

[samasry]

  On 7/18/2021 at 10:21 PM, Uncial said:

....and here I was popping back into this thread about Pelikan but its yet another thread highjacked by pedants arguing economics....and toasters...and Mexican cars...and Doc Martens....I swear, I don't think I've ever seen so many threads repeatedly hijacked to talk economics on a single forum. 

 

Can't you just create a thread somewhere in 'chat' or something and duke it out till doomsday on one thread rather than twisting every thread you post on in this direction?

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I will gladly add you to my ignore list as well    

[samasry]

  On 7/18/2021 at 9:30 PM, JCC123 said:

This, for example, is my case in point. If you were a middle manager tasks with outsourcing Kitchen-Aid toasters and your bonus is tied to how much margins you can squeeze out of the project, would you sacrifice your bonus in order to produce a better product with lower margins? I didn't think so...

 

So is this the Chinese plants fault or yours?

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We have been sold out   lock,  stock and barrel by the globalization crowd.   They thought  they were running the world.  

30 or 40 years after the fact, the rest of the world has  lost most of its industrial know-how and  we only have options to choose between bleepy  chinese products,  very bleepy  chinese products  and extremely bleepy chinese products.

 

I do not blame an  object  such as  a chinese plant for this mess,  I blame the  Globalization morons, who  happen to be mostly Westeners.

 

Just think of this simple  point:  The US has 350 Million people. Do we think all 350 Million are going to be doing  AI  and DNA research?     Do we think  the US has  enough service jobs for  hundreds of millions?,  just as an example of  one  country.   

 There are  reasons  we have Millions of  non-college educated  people who feel left behind in this  moronic  globalization model.

 

 

 

[JCC123]

  On 7/18/2021 at 11:45 PM, samasry said:

 

We have been sold out   lock,  stock and barrel by the globalization crowd.   They thought  they were running the world.  

30 or 40 years after the fact, the rest of the world has  lost most of its industrial know-how and  we only have options to choose between bleepy  chinese products,  very bleepy  chinese products  and extremely bleepy chinese products.

 

I do not blame an  object  such as  a chinese plant for this mess,  I blame the  Globalization morons, who  happen to be mostly Westeners.

 

Just think of this simple  point:  The US has 350 Million people. Do we think all 350 Million are going to be doing  AI  and DNA research?     Do we think  the US has  enough service jobs for  hundreds of millions?,  just as an example of  one  country.   

 There are  reasons  we have Millions of  non-college educated  people who feel left behind in this  moronic  globalization model.

 

 

 

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Sure, I don't disagree with you but what your are describing is called capitalism. While most people here in the States hate anything but capitalism, it's no picnic either as you can see from what's happening. Production is on the move once again, this time from China into places like Vietnam. Apparently, cost and quality are getting to be too high in China.

 

The other thing I wanted to point out is that most Americans have a self centered approach to life. There's a Netflix documentary that I don't know if you've had the chance to watch called American Factory that puts it into perspective? 
New Yorker Article

It's sad to see how the average American worker can no longer compete because they're too lazy and self centered.

[gyasko]

  On 7/19/2021 at 2:23 AM, JCC123 said:

Sure, I don't disagree with you but what your are describing is called capitalism. While most people here in the States hate anything but capitalism, it's no picnic either as you can see from what's happening. Production is on the move once again, this time from China into places like Vietnam. Apparently, cost and quality are getting to be too high in China.

 

The other thing I wanted to point out is that most Americans have a self centered approach to life. There's a Netflix documentary that I don't know if you've had the chance to watch called American Factory that puts it into perspective? 
New Yorker Article

It's sad to see how the average American worker can no longer compete because they're too lazy and self centered.

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There’s absolutely no reason to  take the word of managers at face value.   Management obviously have their own interests in violating safety standards, busting unions and lowering wages to below subsistence levels.  Or is that what you call altruism?

 

 

 

[sgphototn]

  On 7/19/2021 at 2:52 AM, gyasko said:

 

 

There’s absolutely no reason to  take the word of managers at face value.   Management obviously have their own interests in violating safety standards, busting unions and lowering wages to below subsistence levels.  Or is that what you call altruism?

 

 

 

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I saw that documentary. The Americans came off as lazy, incompetent, and embarrassing representatives at the company meeting. It wasn't an act.

 

Then when faced with actually having to work, they cried like  babies because they were expected to work. Their previous entitlement was over.  

 

They no longer were paid for their ineptitude and many years of complacency.

 

 They deserved firing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RankAmateur]

  On 7/18/2021 at 9:24 PM, JCC123 said:

So, I don't have the time to read some of the long posts since there's really no need for such long post to prove a simple point. So here's mine. Those of you complaining about the lack of quality coming from China, please blame your fellow countryman. They're the ones who are telling the Chinese manufacturing to produce junk. The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing the best of anything, it's a function of how much the Western companies that outsource want to squeeze margins. Most of them want to maximize profits and therefore have told the Chinese plants to produce at the lowest cost and quality. Apple for example, have some of the highest quality goods coming from there because they chose to maximize quality. Furthermore, many CEOs of Western countries have already stated for a fact that they can't build it in their own country even if they wanted to because they no longer have the tooling, engineers, knowledge, skills, etc to scale.

 

BTW, there are also a lot of complaints of shoddy cars produced by Americans from Germany car companies like Mercedes and BMW of their plants in the south. Everyone complains but no one is willing to sacrifice profits to produce a better product.

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YES. EXACTLY.

[RankAmateur]

  On 7/18/2021 at 9:24 PM, JCC123 said:

So, I don't have the time to read some of the long posts since there's really no need for such long post to prove a simple point. So here's mine. Those of you complaining about the lack of quality coming from China, please blame your fellow countryman. They're the ones who are telling the Chinese manufacturing to produce junk. The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing the best of anything, it's a function of how much the Western companies that outsource want to squeeze margins. Most of them want to maximize profits and therefore have told the Chinese plants to produce at the lowest cost and quality. Apple for example, have some of the highest quality goods coming from there because they chose to maximize quality. Furthermore, many CEOs of Western countries have already stated for a fact that they can't build it in their own country even if they wanted to because they no longer have the tooling, engineers, knowledge, skills, etc to scale.

 

BTW, there are also a lot of complaints of shoddy cars produced by Americans from Germany car companies like Mercedes and BMW of their plants in the south. Everyone complains but no one is willing to sacrifice profits to produce a better product.

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YES. EXACTLY.

[Parker51]

  On 7/18/2021 at 5:49 PM, samasry said:

 

They are still struggling with  more mind boggling products like Toaster ovens.  I have one of the  Kitchen-Aid  toasters that has a timer that keeps the oven running after the set-time is over and threatens to burn the owner's  house.

 

The majority of Chinese products  do exhibit  catastrophic failures  that  render the money paid for them a complete waste.

 

We are forced to buy this  bleep  because of the  retarded globalization and  I have not seen significant  improvement in the Chinese bleep-y  products in the past 40 years during which we've  had the mis-fortune of  being forced to buy them.

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In regard to toasters, we still have a Krups type 156 that is a couple of decades old and still better than any two slot toaster that is available today. It was made in Mexico. Perhaps Pelikan could move production to there given its history of sales to Mexico and then pen sales to the USA would be import duty free.

[samasry]

  On 7/20/2021 at 9:56 PM, Parker51 said:

In regard to toasters, we still have a Krups type 156 that is a couple of decades old and still better than any two slot toaster that is available today. It was made in Mexico,  Perhaps Pelikan could move production to there given its history of sales to Mexico and then pen sales to the USA would be import duty free.

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The Toaster example was used as a device  that represents a problem that was solved many  decades ago and yet in the third decade of the 21st century, we are back to having  some incompetent and/or greedy morons  playing dice with our lives by selling a very expensive,  yet piece of garbage product, in which they gutted any semblance of design or engineering to  line their own pockets. 

 

It does not really matter if  devices are made in China or Mexico, as long as this greedy,  incompetent,  bordering on criminal mentality persists among the globalists, or whoever is in charge  these days.

[Parker51]

  On 7/21/2021 at 7:22 AM, samasry said:

 

The Toaster example was used as a device  that represents a problem that was solved many  decades ago and yet in the third decade of the 21st century, we are back to having  some incompetent and/or greedy morons  playing dice with our lives by selling a very expensive,  yet piece of garbage product, in which they gutted any semblance of design or engineering to  line their own pockets. 

 

It does not really matter if  devices are made in China or Mexico, as long as this greedy,  incompetent,  bordering on criminal mentality persists among the globalists, or whoever is in charge  these days.

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Well, the toaster actually used a better technology, heat radiating tubes than what currently is used, simple heat radiating flat wires, which is the earlier technology and which at the time the toaster we have was made was commonly used in cheap toasters. Now it appears all toasters use the low cost technology and simply have different style boxes. 

[Karmachanic]

  On 7/21/2021 at 7:22 AM, samasry said:

It does not really matter if  devices are made in China or Mexico, as long as this greedy,  incompetent,  bordering on criminal mentality persists among the globalists, or whoever is in charge  these days.

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And then there's those who blindly purchase such products, keeping said businesses afloat.

[sirgilbert357]

Lots of Pelikans out of stock most places I look.

 

Anyone have any updates or new information on their situation? I would really love to get an IB nib and a Stresemann before all supply dries up (if they are never to produce again)...

 

Should I just jump on whatever I can find, regardless of the prices? 

[Vladpu]

Remember the Chicago Conklins?  Das war nicht gut.

[Parker51]

Yes, I remember them and their reboots.

 

I believe there is however a lot of value in Pelikan. If Cross was able to come up with the money it would benefit them (especially if Ireland offered some help) or maybe, it could join Parker and Waterman for an even closer movement of equipment and essential personnel.

[Vladpu]

Wow, lots of discussion about manufacturing and the olden days of quality.  I too lament the changes.  We are seeing in the world a resurgence of just hating everything and everybody.  If people put 1/10 th of the effort into getting along instead, oh frabjous day!

All that said, I have an appreciation for quality workpersonship.  Including Pelikan pens.  I decided to be a nostalgic pessimist and buy another 800 quick, just this morning.  In searching dozens of sites to find only a few still available (unless you want XF or B nib, or a 900 Toledo), I see they are in fact disappearing quickly.

I had a 900 Toledo once.  It was very nice, but so heavy it fell out of my pocket one time when I bent over to pick something up off the floor.  It landed on a ceramic tile floor and broke into 2 parts, right where the overlay met the clear bit.  Pelikan repaired it free, but I sold it ... I did not want the risk again.  Still have a 700 Toledo.  In a box, permanently.  

[sirgilbert357]

  On 8/7/2021 at 7:19 PM, Doctox57 said:

Wow, lots of discussion about manufacturing and the olden days of quality.  I too lament the changes.  We are seeing in the world a resurgence of just hating everything and everybody.  If people put 1/10 th of the effort into getting along instead, oh frabjous day!

All that said, I have an appreciation for quality workpersonship.  Including Pelikan pens.  I decided to be a nostalgic pessimist and buy another 800 quick, just this morning.  In searching dozens of sites to find only a few still available (unless you want XF or B nib, or a 900 Toledo), I see they are in fact disappearing quickly.

I had a 900 Toledo once.  It was very nice, but so heavy it fell out of my pocket one time when I bent over to pick something up off the floor.  It landed on a ceramic tile floor and broke into 2 parts, right where the overlay met the clear bit.  Pelikan repaired it free, but I sold it ... I did not want the risk again.  Still have a 700 Toledo.  In a box, permanently.  

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Where did you see some M800's in stock? I want a Stresemann with a broad nib and can't find them anywhere except eBay for silly prices. I did find them ONE other place, but also for a higher price...

[Vladpu]

https://www.iguanasell.com/collections/pelikan/products/pelikan-m805-stresemann-fountain-pen-palladium-trim-957639#shipping-popup

[Vladpu]

I have bought other pelikans historically at guanasell - the shipping works fine even from Spain, and I have never had a problem.