"Giant Size" Pen History and Models

[bunnspecial]

This is just a bit of rambling with a question thrown in.

 

What I'd call an "oversize" pen has been around for a while. I know that can be a fuzzy definition, but I find it easy to describe/explain by citing specific models. The oldest I can think of is the Duofold Senior, although it's a bit bigger than something like an OS Balance. A few years later you had variants of pens like the Balance and the Vacumatic specifically designated as oversize. A few years later came pens like the MB 146, which is a near copy of the shape and dimensions of the OS Balance. I don't have a Vac balance to which to compare(I want one) but my Maxima is about the same length just not the diameter. I've never seen or handled an MB 136, but I'm guessing it's probably near that size also.

 

Of the pen brands I know, the MB 146 still has the OS Balance dimensions(I'll dig out comparison photos if anyone is interested). Of course there's the cartridge twin the 147. The Pelikan M800 and Duofold Centennial are roughly the same dimensions also. The Sailor 1911 is a virtual copy of the 146 without the snowflake(the black/gold version really is a 146 doppelganger). This to me is an almost perfect size pen for me, and I have a lot of pens both vintage and modern in this size.

 

Enter, though, a pen size that I'm not sure has an official name, but that I call a "Giant Size" pen. To me the MB 149 is the stereotypical giant pen(although I realize it borrowed heavily from the 139, but I will likely never own one of those). Pens this size are also often accompanied by a similarly big nib, although that's not universal(the Ranga 9B "Giant" is quite a bit bigger than a 149, but uses a #6 nib). One of the other big ones is the Pelikan M1000. I think, without having seem one, that the Sailor 1911 KOP is roughly a 149-sized pen. I've not paid much attention to them and how they compare to other models, but I think the Visconti Homosapiens is quite large also.

 

I guess I'm wondering out loud, so to speak:

 

1. Were there Oversize pens prior to the Duofold, or an immediate predecessor like a Lucky Curve?(I have a black hard rubber Parker with a Duofold nib that is physically identical to a Duofold but just has the Lucky Curve banner and no Duofold marking...guessing it may be from 1919 or 1920).

 

2. Was the MB 139 the first pen in what I'm calling the Giant size class, or are there older models?

 

3. Am I missing any modern Giant pens?

[Karmachanic]

Namiki Emperor, Tohma pens, and Gama Supreme come to mind.  Ranga Emperor is available with a Bock #8 nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

149 is oversized.

The '50-60 146 was medium-large.

The '70-now 146 is a Large pen.

 

By the way if I was perfect, I'd be telling Billy Gates what time he had to show up for work.

Besides the Shaffer Balance, Torpedo was also a shape used by Swan, pre-146/9.

[Nethermark]

The Parker Red Giant from 1909 and the Waterman 20 from about the same time must be some of the earliest giant fountain pens

[bunnspecial]

  On 6/21/2021 at 4:37 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

149 is oversized.

The '50-60 146 was medium-large.

The '70-now 146 is a Large pen.

 

By the way if I was perfect, I'd be telling Billy Gates what time he had to show up for work.

Besides the Shaffer Balance, Torpedo was also a shape used by Swan, pre-146/9.

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You're fond of telling us that the Pelikan M200/400 is a standard size pen, albeit small by current standards.

 

If a pen many of us consider "small" is actually what you designate "standard size", why is a pen virtually the same size as a pen Sheaffer designated "Oversize" not considered an "Oversized" pen?

[Bo Bo Olson]

  On 6/21/2021 at 6:01 PM, bunnspecial said:

ou're fond of telling us that the Pelikan M200/400 is a standard size pen, albeit small by current standards.

 

If a pen many of us consider "small" is actually what you designate "standard size",

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I don't collect US pens....even though I have standard sized Vac, and some medium-large-long unused Flighers in my wife found them pretty & a single P-51, and a Snorkel.

So ???? ""why is a pen virtually the same size as a pen Sheaffer designated "Oversize" not considered an "Oversized" pen?""" Never seen a compassion nor held one...

 

Car sizes were 'set' way back in the when, small, standard and large, then came compact- like a VW bug or a Volvo 444, and large grew to mean a Lincoln Town car.

Now many a standard sized car is considered Large....standard sized sat 6, back in bench front seat days. A '57 Chevy was considered a standard sized car. Now that size is called large.

 

Back in the day of B&W TV or even into Disney being the first color program I ever saw, it was Standard sized, like the Esterbrook's, or the P-75, Wearever's, Venus, Shaffer school pens....Pelikan 400's, Geha 790's MB 234 1/2 all are standard sized pens.

 

In my childhood, a P-51 was considered a 'large-pen, even if it was only medium-large, in there weren't a lot of for them 'big' pens around....it and the Snorkel...the adult pens for folks with a good job.

...(I must admit I was shocked to find out he Snorkel was a Large pen,  instead of being medium-large, when I accidentally put it next to my Safari....because the Snorkel is thin, it don't feel 'big'. It has great balance for a large pen....the later second model P-45 is also a large pen...in the second model version, the first one was smaller and rounder...more P-51 size. I've no complaints about the second model's balance, posted.

 

Just because you grew up when big clunky non  postable Large pens are common, don't make them standard.....they are Large.

A Chevy Impala is a standard sized car; not a large one....no matter what they call it at the dealership. 

 

Adult pens, I was going to get one, either a P-51 or Snorkel as soon as I got grown up and had a job..........I got a standard sized sterling silver P-75 instead.

 

Shaffer's PFM, was one of the first large clunky pens...in spite of much advertising ( back when fountain pens were advertised on TV for Christmas, Mother's and Fathers days and in the better magazines, I never saw one in real life...

 

Large Bling pens that could be seen across a conference table...did save fountain pens, or they would have died....but that don't make them standard, unless you want to call them standard conference room pens.

[bunnspecial]

  On 6/21/2021 at 7:40 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

So ???? ""why is a pen virtually the same size as a pen Sheaffer designated "Oversize" not considered an "Oversized" pen?""" Never seen a compassion nor held one...

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Well, here's one as the crux of my argument

 

I've thrown a 149 in for comparison, which as you can see is not much longer than a 146 but a whole lot fatter than either the Balance or the 146. The 146 is longer than the Balance, but about the same diameter. The nibs are about the same size. Also, it's virtually identical in what to me is another important aspect-the section to nib tip distance(which I've noticed has a big effect for me on my comfort with a pen).

 

 

Here are a few more thrown into the mix in various photos-a Duofold Sr.(rubber), a modern Duofold Centennial, a Vacumatic Maxima, and since you mentioned it a Snorkel. I'll mention also that my issue and preference for what I'm calling an oversize pens is for finding the diameter, not necessarily the length, a good match for me. It's not about posting and making the pen a comfortable length by doing so, as I and several others have mentioned to you in what seems to be a "large pen" crusade. It's about section diameter and what a person finds comfortable.

 

 

 

 

 

  On 6/21/2021 at 7:40 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

was Standard sized, like the Esterbrook's, or the P-75, Wearever's, Venus, Shaffer school pens....Pelikan 400's, Geha 790's MB 234 1/2 all are standard sized pens.

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  On 6/21/2021 at 7:40 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

Just because you grew up when big clunky non  postable Large pens are common, don't make them standard.....they are Large.

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This seems to be going in circles. I acknowledged a Pelikan M200/400 as a standard size pen, and in fact that's my benchmark for a "standard size" pen. You seem(I think) to be taking issue with my calling a 146 and M800 an "Oversize" pen and putting the 149, etc, in a different category. The 146 and 149 are both 70 year old designs(roughly) and descended from pens that are older.

 

The 146 follows the form and dimensions of what at least one American maker called an Oversize pen. In my mind, you can't really have it both ways-if you insist on keeping old size designations intact for what is in fact a relatively new design(the M200 and M400, even though they are similar in size to my 400NNs), why can we not keep old designations intact for pens of similar design vintage that are also similar in size to pens that quite literally were cataloged as "Oversize."

 

And, that again is my point I'm making. If the 146 is an oversize pen, why is it not appropriate to assign an additional size class to a pen from the same manufacturer that is even larger?

[Bo Bo Olson]

The 146 has never been a oversized pen, ...even if it's as big as the Shaffer Oversize, the 149 is oversized.

 

The '50-60 146 was a medium-large pen (have 1), the modern 146 (2)..1970 now is a large pen...never an over sized one.

Is a lighter more nimble pen than the 800.

The 149 (1) is an over sized pen....still a touch too big for me.

 

Just because a pen company calls a 1932 pen oversized has nothing to do with it. It being advertising.

And or Oversize meaning bigger than the normal sized pen.

 

My Waterman 52's are just a slight tad smaller than my large 146, a slight tad bigger than my medium-large '50-60 146. & Thinner.

 

In the '20's there were some oversized pens, bigger than the Waterman 52, which are my oldest pens..... some sort of flat top Parker mottled red and black hard rubber pens, is supposed to be pretty big...

How big they actually are I don't know....am in the wrong country to look at them.

But I do recall reading here how many folks thought some of those '20's pens were Huge.

[whichwatch]

For what it's worth, here are some modern oversize pens (whatever that means).

 

Left to right are: 

 

Pelikan M1000

Nakaya Dorsal Fin 1

Manu Propria

Namiki Emperor

Tohma Hachikuma 55

Tohma Kumataka 55

 

 

[vicpen123]

Without some idea of giant size dimensions I cannot be sure but the largest pen that I have is a Danitrio Cum Laude celluloid.

 

150mm long capped, 172 mm long posted, 14mm diameter barrel at section.

 

Does this qualify?

[bunnspecial]

  On 6/21/2021 at 9:30 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

Just because a pen company calls a 1932 pen oversized has nothing to do with it. It being advertising.

And or Oversize meaning bigger than the normal sized pen.

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On this completely illogical statement I'm just going to say forget it on the whole premise of the thread.

 

It's okay for some people to use terms used by the pen companies in vintage times to describe older pens, or to say that a pen that is small by today's standards is a "standard" pen.

Heaven forbid, though, that I use the dimensions of pens MADE AND SOLD UNDER THE NAME "OVERSIZE" as a benchmark for referring to other pens as oversize.

It completely defies my understanding as to why that's the case, but whatever, I guess I'm just stupid and ignorant of what's going on.

Carry on if you wish, but I'm out of this thread.

[Newton Pens]

Every manufacturer and maker has different names for all their sizes that have nothing to do with what other makers are doing.  Comparing names from Sheaffer with Montblanc or anybody else is useless b/c Sheaffer doesn't care what other makers call their sizes.  What Sheaffer calls OS I call small or medium.  It doesn't matter.  Best thing to do is find a size you like and try to find other pens the same size, regardless of what size name it's been given.  Standard means one thing for Sheaffer, something else for Pelikan, and something else for Montblanc.  X)  Have fun.

[Karmachanic]

Potato potahto.  Let's Call the Whole Thing Off 🤪

[Bo Bo Olson]

  On 6/22/2021 at 2:03 PM, bunnspecial said:

Heaven forbid, though, that I use the dimensions of pens MADE AND SOLD UNDER THE NAME "OVERSIZE" as a benchmark for referring to other pens as oversize.

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OK...if you want to go.

 

However when just one company sells a pen they claim is Oversizes don't make every pen that size an 'oversized' pen; when they have been called large by most in later generations.

Had Oversize been a 'standard  size' for large pens, other companies would have used the same term. And this discussion would not have taken such a turn.

 

This is the first time I've read of anyone but you, insisting all large pens are 'oversized', because one pen company called one of their models that. 

 

But that was Shaffer's terminology, not Parkers, or the then still good pen, Conklins, or Watermanns.

 

When reading the term Oversized, I have only thought of early '30's Shaffers New Balance pens, in none other used that term; as far as I know. But only have my Watermans from the generation for so before, the New Balance and a standard sized '38 Parker Vac.

[bunnspecial]

  On 6/22/2021 at 3:27 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

But that was Shaffer's terminology, not Parkers

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Incorrect

 

The Oversize Vac is virtually the same size

[sirgilbert357]

  On 6/21/2021 at 10:37 PM, whichwatch said:

For what it's worth, here are some modern oversize pens (whatever that means).

 

Left to right are: 

 

Pelikan M1000

Nakaya Dorsal Fin 1

Manu Propria

Namiki Emperor

Tohma Hachikuma 55

Tohma Kumataka 55

 

 

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WOW.

 

That's a Pelikan M1000 on the left??? LOL. GEEZ, that Tohma Kumataka 55 is utterly massive. I don't care what anyone else calls it!!! I don't think I could write with something that large. The distance of the section to the nib tip would make the angle on paper rather shallow for me unless I were arm writing and just hovering above the page!

 

I'd love to see a pic of that pen in your hand!

[sirgilbert357]

  On 6/22/2021 at 2:20 PM, Newton Pens said:

Every manufacturer and maker has different names for all their sizes that have nothing to do with what other makers are doing.  Comparing names from Sheaffer with Montblanc or anybody else is useless b/c Sheaffer doesn't care what other makers call their sizes.  What Sheaffer calls OS I call small or medium.  It doesn't matter.  Best thing to do is find a size you like and try to find other pens the same size, regardless of what size name it's been given.  Standard means one thing for Sheaffer, something else for Pelikan, and something else for Montblanc.  X)  Have fun.

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Hmm, you know, now that you mention it, I typically disregard all the marketing names/descriptions and just look at two or three measurements: section diameter, length unposted, and weight. And sometimes weight doesn't matter all that much. I can use a very light pen (Pilot Varsity or the like) up to a heavier pen (Lamy 2000 Stainless Steel) just fine. I also don't post any of my pens no matter what, so that cuts down on dimensions I have to worry about (posted length) and weight (who cares how much that cap weighs by itself!!!).

[Bo Bo Olson]

Good to learn something, I've never heard of an Oversized Vac....wrong continent; wrong collection area; so I don't read Parker or Shaffer sub-sections. 

 

Still such a term as far as I know, never made it out of the '30's or early '40s.

I'd only heard of an Oversize New Balance and of course not in real life back in the day of B&W TV....in it was an obsolete item, like a VAC.

 

 

 

[whichwatch]

  On 6/22/2021 at 3:50 PM, sirgilbert357 said:

 

 

 

I'd love to see a pic of that pen in your hand!

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Here you go....

 

 

[silverlifter]

For some context, some larger pens lined up: vintage and modern.

 

L-R: Nakaya 17mm Portable Cigar, Sheaffer OS Balance Premier, Parker Vacumatic Maxima, Conid Minimalistica, L2K.

 

 

 

Excuse the lint/dust: it was a hurried shot 😛