I am interested in why people don’t change their handwriting to accompany their nib size.

[samasry]

  On 6/17/2021 at 9:12 PM, gyasko said:

 

Who said it was fountain pen friendly?  It is almost certainly isn't.  The point is that people insist on using cheap copy paper, which is sub-optimal for fountain pens, often in pursuit of some ideal of Frugality.  Then they say they must use dry xf nibs because they're less likely to cause feathering, no matter what size they write in. 

 

I don't bother with cheap paper myself.  I have spent a lot of money on pens.  I want to enjoy them.  I won't if i use bad paper. 

Expand  

 

In your post you have referred to "many people",  "cramming as many words ..",   "on cheap copy paper" which would never be possible  with "copy paper"  unless they are fountain pen friendly.

 

Your recent clarification about  "EF nib"  was the missing part.

 

My query was mainly because I am looking for such  decent paper, and thought you have a good pointer

 

 

[collectorofmanythings]

  On 6/17/2021 at 4:33 AM, Muncle said:

Summed up very neatly.

 

In work and play, most of what I put down iare small notes, lists, quick marks. And it doesn't matter what color, nib or size I write.

 

But I know, if I'm taking a lot of notes to and if I'm going to refer to them, then I need a fine job, be careful with my ink selection, and make sure I have a reliable pen. I can't be thinking too much about my writing style when I'm trying to get my notes down.

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Ok, I see, what you write most often determines what nib size that you use most often, but you can switch nib sizes, but certain ones are better for your needs. Very interesting. Thank you for your response!

[collectorofmanythings]

  On 6/17/2021 at 6:37 AM, TheDutchGuy said:

Since developing difficulties when writing, I’ve learned to change speed, size and font to accommodate my abilities on a given day. Can’t just pick up any pen and go, so choosing the right pen for the moment is step #1. Then I change size and font for best results. On some days, a Japanese F with very small cursive works best. On other days, a stub with printing. Etc. This process takes about 1 minute on a good day and 15 minutes on a bad day. The upside is that I have developed several styles of writing that I can switch between, but it’s definitely Swiss army knife, jack of all trades but master of none. As might be expected, narrower nibs tend to make me write smaller (sometimes very small indeed) and v.v.

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First of all, I am so sorry about you developing writing difficulties. But that’s very interesting how you choose what nib size to use to make it easier to write in the style that you are choosing to use at the time. Thank you for your response!

[A Smug Dill]

  On 6/17/2021 at 9:50 PM, collectorofmanythings said:

But that’s very interesting how you choose what nib size to use to make it easier to write in the style that you are choosing to use at the time.

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If and when I write in larger handwriting than my usual, it'll be because I want the intended writing outcome, and/or have a particular purpose in mind (e.g. for headings); and I prefer not to have to switch pens (or swap nibs on a pen) midway in a writing session for that. (Switching to a different ink or colour for certain words or lines of text on the page is a different story.)

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I can write tiny....if I put my mind to it, but don't have too, in I have a good supply of paper....EF ...Well, I scribble just as large as always...I don't chase EF ... did get a brown marbled 200 in EF for editing....don't know why I have that in semi-flex, but I was looking I think for a dryer nib.

 

I have lost nothing in XXF Spider Web country; I'd have to get the most brilliant boring monotone ink, just for that pen.

 

OK, a simple way to learn to write large. Buy wider lined paper...

Or print your own wider lined paper, there are free templates all over the com.

 

Or, Take 2 sheets of paper, fold in 4ths....Write as large as you can in the first 4th, smaller all the way down to the last 16th. There is going to be a lot of middles to scribble on, where one can find comfort.

If one wants to go wide,  or use a wide to some M???, or B or BB, then do that with one sheet front and back, and stay large readable.

Paper is cheap. With good paper 90g+, one could try two toned shading inks, that are OK in F, better in M's....I got to dig around to see if I can fine a nice regular flex b....if so, it's been a long time.

Regular flex M like a 200, or Japanese F soft, is very good for two toned shading inks.

Semi-flex unless perfectly matched with ink and paper is often too wet for shading inks.

[A Smug Dill]

  On 6/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, gyasko said:

Many people have a fetish for cramming as many words as possible on to their beloved cheap copy paper.  I’m not sure why, maybe frugality (“you see, i’m really saving money with this expensive pen and ink”) or because they believe it’s somehow “efficient”.  

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I love how you insinuate, by the use of the word “fetish”, that striving for high information/content density which also increases ink coverage per unit area on parts of the page is somehow abnormal, or at best idiosyncratic and irrational, while also admitting that it is commonplace and practised by “many people”.

 

To me, writing with a nib that puts down lines of 0.9mm width on average is an inefficient use of space on the page. Some argue that it takes putting down that much ink to show off its characteristics and do it justice; but a 0.9mm-wide line does not inherently put down more ink by sheer volume than three 0.3mm-wide lines would in the same area, assuming similar ‘wetness’ of the nib.

 

Some ink reviewers, myself included, have shown time and time again that an ink that is apt to exhibit shading and sheen will do so even when used in a pen fitted with an EF nib. But, with narrow lines of ink, I can fit several times more content in a paper surface area of a given size than with wide lines, even if it may take roughly three times as long to ‘cover’ that area if I'm writing three lines of text at one-third the line width. Furthermore, writing larger is not inherently more ‘expressive’; the same degree of expressiveness can be achieved at a physically smaller scale, but requiring more mental focus and more precise motor control on the part of the pen user to produce the intended writing outcome.

 

  On 6/17/2021 at 9:12 PM, gyasko said:

Who said it was fountain pen friendly?  It is almost certainly isn't.  The point is that people insist on using cheap copy paper, which is sub-optimal for fountain pens, often in pursuit of some ideal of Frugality.  Then they say they must use dry xf nibs because they're less likely to cause feathering, no matter what size they write in. 

 

I don't bother with cheap paper myself.  I have spent a lot of money on pens.  I want to enjoy them.  I won't if i use bad paper. 

Expand  

 

I can't and won't argue for using cheap copy paper, because I don't use it except for exclusively laser-printed material such as address labels. However, just as you have spent a lot of money on pens, so have I — and I won't enjoy it if I'm ‘forced’ to write in larger handwriting than I normally would and like.

[Linger]

I like this question and thread, and would like to offer a twist on a view mentioned before. 

 

Preamble:

I abstain from the use of absorbent paper or not, to avoid a multiple-variant equation and keep the discussion concentrated.

I use the metric system - too bad for y'all on the other side of the pond that Carter didn't push through... 🙂 

 

We were all taught to write in primary school according to rules. If I look at the rules applied in my school in the 70s in NL, we were taught cursive, there are a few that come to mind - being relevant here:

 

- we use 8mm ruled paper

- the "body" of the letter and the "loop" of the letter have a fixed proportion, which is 1 : 1,5

- (different rule for the "stick" of a letter)

- the downward loops can not cross the upward loops of the writing on the line above/below

= this means the body of the letter must be 2mm and the loop must be 3mm

 

If you use 8mm ruled paper, and try to write a 2mm letter "a" with a BB nib, it turns out to be one blob of ink. And if you use 8mm ruled paper and increase the body of the letter to 2,5mm or more, the loops start to cross... So the correct application of the rules I was taught would in fact necessitate a smaller nib. With 5mm dotted paper, meaning a line spacing of 10mm, you have a bit more slack. 

 

I guess that there are not many folks that keep sticking strictly to the rules taught in primary school throughout their entire life. One makes one's writing one's own. But perhaps subconsciously still do to a certain extent...thus tending towards smaller nibs within a given size of writing?

 

I dunno, it applies to me. I have to change my writing to accomodate a larger nib and maintain readability...and find that not very easy...

 

 

[maclink]

  On 6/18/2021 at 8:05 AM, Linger said:

I like this question and thread, and would like to offer a twist on a view mentioned before. 

 

Preamble:

I abstain from the use of absorbent paper or not, to avoid a multiple-variant equation and keep the discussion concentrated.

I use the metric system - too bad for y'all on the other side of the pond that Carter didn't push through... 🙂 

 

We were all taught to write in primary school according to rules. If I look at the rules applied in my school in the 70s in NL, we were taught cursive, there are a few that come to mind - being relevant here:

 

- we use 8mm ruled paper

- the "body" of the letter and the "loop" of the letter have a fixed proportion, which is 1 : 1,5

- (different rule for the "stick" of a letter)

- the downward loops can not cross the upward loops of the writing on the line above/below

= this means the body of the letter must be 2mm and the loop must be 3mm

 

If you use 8mm ruled paper, and try to write a 2mm letter "a" with a BB nib, it turns out to be one blob of ink. And if you use 8mm ruled paper and increase the body of the letter to 2,5mm or more, the loops start to cross... So the correct application of the rules I was taught would in fact necessitate a smaller nib. With 5mm dotted paper, meaning a line spacing of 10mm, you have a bit more slack. 

 

I guess that there are not many folks that keep sticking strictly to the rules taught in primary school throughout their entire life. One makes one's writing one's own. But perhaps subconsciously still do to a certain extent...thus tending towards smaller nibs within a given size of writing?

 

I dunno, it applies to me. I have to change my writing to accomodate a larger nib and maintain readability...and find that not very easy...

 

 

Expand  

 

Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  Your approach and personal attitude to handwriting is quite precise.  Those diagrams say it all. 

 

I had to dig deep to find standard ruled paper for me to see if my 1.1mm stubbed writing would fit there and it does, with ease.   At work, I use blank sheets for writing.  At home here, it's either blank, or a grid.  Although I don't consciously use the grids to control my text size, I do write more horizontally than with black sheets.

 

I think only the core of the writing technique I learnt at school, I have maintained.  I had learnt cursive, but over the years switched to a manuscript style.  Once I started using FP's over a decade ago, I revisited cursive but am now, use more of an italic/manuscript hybrid style.

 

However, my handwriting size remained more or less the same through all this.  It's only in the past 1-2yrs that I've been using wider nibs and my handwriting does increase in size a bit when using them.  This isn't a conscious effort.  Funnily, my slowness to adapt wasn't down to having to write bigger.  It's just that I didn't like what I was seeing.  This was fixed with wider nibs that add character to my writing, i.e., the stubbed mediums, stubbed broads and modern stubs.

[ethernautrix]

An alternative reason for writing smaller (besides aesthetic enjoyment in the act of writing and then in the visual result of pages and pages of small writing) is a form of frugality that has less to do with cost than with the amassing of notebooks.

 

When I realized that I was filling a Moleskine-type notebook about every month-and-a-half, I thought, This will not do. And I was already writiing in a smallish hand, certainly smaller than ten or so years previously.

 

I don't want to pack hundreds of notebooks every time I move (which hasn't happened recently but is probably imminent, depending on the Fates and other factors).

 

Thus... the Notebook Lobotomy project (shredding) and a different approach to journalling. Recording mostly facts in a day-per-page diary and rambling in notepads for shredding.

 

So far so good. 


As for using nibs with larger tipping -- of course my handwriting grows to accommodate it, and sometimes this is desired and intentional. But for the vast majority of my writing, PO, EF, and F nibs are my delight.

[MoriartyR]

I write smaller and use fine or extra-fine nibs because I think it looks nicer and neater. Not only for my own handwriting, but for everyone’s handwriting. It would be very unsatisfactory for me to use a broad or stub nib (or a Pelikan “medium”) because I would simply dislike the way the writing looks.

 

That’s just my own aesthetic preference. I can’t really say why, but I wonder if it stems from my early school days when the most visible difference between a kid who struggled with writing and one who had mastered it was generally apparent in the size of their writing. So I think on some level perhaps I still associate large handwriting with low ability. That needn’t be true for adults, of course, but these associations can linger in the subconscious, can’t they?

 

[bunnspecial]

I enjoy writing with B/BB nibs for the smoothness, the character that they tend to bring out in inks(often I get the best shading and sheening both out of nibs), and the "flair" that a stubby B or BB adds to my writing.

With that said, if I'm taking notes or whatever, my writing tends naturally to a size that is much more legible with a medium to fine nib. I use to be sloppy looking with Ms, but have used them enough that it's become my "default" writing and can write comfortably with one, or can step down to an F and still write legibly.

 

So, the short answer is, I can make a big nib work for me and I often do, but sometimes it's just not worthwhile to do it.

[ParramattaPaul]

Like Moriarty R above, I write small for neatness and appearance  This dates back to a time during my school days when I was required to write long reports and essays, and did not have access to a typewriter.  However, probably because I am lefthanded, fine pointed pens tend to dig into the paper, and I find a broad nib glides across a page nicely. 

[MoriartyR]

  On 6/18/2021 at 4:00 PM, ParramattaPaul said:

Like Moriarty R above, I write small for neatness and appearance  This dates back to a time during my school days when I was required to write long reports and essays, and did not have access to a typewriter.  However, probably because I am lefthanded, fine pointed pens tend to dig into the paper, and I find a broad nib glides across a page nicely. 

Expand  

Interesting. I am left-handed too but I hold the pen at a low-ish angle (about 45 degrees) so maybe that’s why I don’t get scratchiness with extra-fine nibs. Using fine nibs helps a lot against smudging, of course.

Also, some manufacturers seem to make very smooth F and EF nibs. I have great experiences with Montegrappa, Leonardo, Visconti (sometimes), Caran d’Ache, GvFC in this respect. Funny, I just realised most of those are Bock or Jowo made nibs.

 

[sirgilbert357]

  On 6/18/2021 at 8:05 AM, Linger said:

I like this question and thread, and would like to offer a twist on a view mentioned before. 

 

Preamble:

I abstain from the use of absorbent paper or not, to avoid a multiple-variant equation and keep the discussion concentrated.

I use the metric system - too bad for y'all on the other side of the pond that Carter didn't push through... 🙂 

 

We were all taught to write in primary school according to rules. If I look at the rules applied in my school in the 70s in NL, we were taught cursive, there are a few that come to mind - being relevant here:

 

- we use 8mm ruled paper

- the "body" of the letter and the "loop" of the letter have a fixed proportion, which is 1 : 1,5

- (different rule for the "stick" of a letter)

- the downward loops can not cross the upward loops of the writing on the line above/below

= this means the body of the letter must be 2mm and the loop must be 3mm

 

If you use 8mm ruled paper, and try to write a 2mm letter "a" with a BB nib, it turns out to be one blob of ink. And if you use 8mm ruled paper and increase the body of the letter to 2,5mm or more, the loops start to cross... So the correct application of the rules I was taught would in fact necessitate a smaller nib. With 5mm dotted paper, meaning a line spacing of 10mm, you have a bit more slack. 

 

I guess that there are not many folks that keep sticking strictly to the rules taught in primary school throughout their entire life. One makes one's writing one's own. But perhaps subconsciously still do to a certain extent...thus tending towards smaller nibs within a given size of writing?

 

I dunno, it applies to me. I have to change my writing to accomodate a larger nib and maintain readability...and find that not very easy...

 

 

Expand  

 

Oof...

 

I'm sure the intention of all those rules was to make handwriting legible. That's fine while you're still in school. But strictly adhering to that formula as an adult -- that would completely kill the joy of writing for me. I don't need that many rules just to write legibly. LOL.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I like two toned shading inks, and a regular flex like a Pelikan has that M nib, which is better than a semi-flex unless the paper and the ink are perfectly matched.

I find M to give better results than F.....EF is one of those things that don't quite make it....magnifying glass needed to see if it shades. I've not had 20-15 eyes since I was 13....

 

I have to dig through my pens to see if I have a regular flex B....I've lots of semi-flex B's-0B's and BB's or OBB. There I have to chase line variation in they are on the whole too wet for shading.

 

How ever when I came in from being a One Man, One Pen in M....(not used for 30 years) I went wide. Others come in with a M and go skinny......and I write large as is, and some how didn't get trapped in collage line with notebooks forcing me to write small again**. So I could get away with writing big and thick, or even big and F thin.....and I consider a F to be a narrow nib.............There are tiny scribblers who consider an F to be fat.

 

I had not lost anything in the spiderweb and Baby Spider Web chase. XXF & XXXF....and I didn't care if nibs that skinny were Western or even skinnier Japanese......and there is needlepoint. My eyes are not strong enough, and no ink I won would be bright enough.

 

** Of course in collage one writes small to save money for beer.

 

[sansenri]

well, actually I do change size of my script. Usually it's not to adapt to the nib but to need, small notebook quick notes, large notebook slow tidy schemes, for example.

One thing I've noticed is I've changed size of my script with age, if I write too small I can't read what I've written any more!!

[collectorofmanythings]

  On 6/17/2021 at 10:01 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

If and when I write in larger handwriting than my usual, it'll be because I want the intended writing outcome, and/or have a particular purpose in mind (e.g. for headings); and I prefer not to have to switch pens (or swap nibs on a pen) midway in a writing session for that. (Switching to a different ink or colour for certain words or lines of text on the page is a different story.)

 

Expand  

Very interesting.. thank you for the writing sample!

[Arkanabar]

  On 6/17/2021 at 9:26 PM, samasry said:

 

Thank  you  @sirgilbert357  for the  great  advice.

 

Unfortunately, I  have some sort of aversion towards black ink. I have no idea why, in my mind it should be great, but once I write couple of lines with it,  I  quickly return to my trusty blue inks.

 

Very good advice nonetheless, I appreciate it.

 

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@samasry -- try a low-intensity IG blue-black, such as R&K Salix.  That ought to reduce feathering.

 

  On 6/18/2021 at 6:13 PM, sirgilbert357 said:

 

Oof...

 

I'm sure the intention of all those rules was to make handwriting legible. That's fine while you're still in school. But strictly adhering to that formula as an adult -- that would completely kill the joy of writing for me. I don't need that many rules just to write legibly. LOL.

Expand  

@sirgilbert:  De gustibus non est disputandem.  Ethernautrix doesn't want a huge collection of filled journals.  I don't want a huge collection of ink.  Some people find disciplined approaches relaxing, empowering, or both, even (sometimes especially) when the discipline is self-imposed.

 

As for me, my handwriting was established with a 0.5mm mechanical pencil and college ruled paper, because I was cheap and liked to cram a lot of words onto each sheet of paper, as fast as I could.  It has been cramped, narrow and awful ever since.  As a result, I tend to favor finer points.  

 

However, I now recognize that widening my hand will improve its legibility, so I have taken to using stubs and broad-ruled paper to force me into doing so.  In fact, most of the pens I now use are 1mm stubs.  When I really want to force myself, I get my 1.5mm Pilot Parallel.

[Bo Bo Olson]

  On 6/20/2021 at 8:55 PM, Arkanabar said:

R&K Salix

Expand  

Samasry.....Is a dusky blue, shades well on 90g or better paper. Doesn't go from blue to black like any good BB ink...some take a day or so to change from blue to black.

Pelikan 4001 is the driest inks, and BB the driest of them, but if you are willing the 4001 turquoise, is a nice dry shading turquoise. Or Lamy's.

 

Laser paper  is best. But I'm after two toned shading inks.

Ink Jet is the feather champ.

 

Laser and ink jet is a compromise. I've some Southworth that is nice paper in spite of that. Rhoda is a nice slick non-feathering paper..

Samasry, what paper are you using?

And what ink....are you having a woolly line, or is it actually feathering.

 

I'm OCD on wooly lines, much less fethereing.

For example most of my Pelikan Edelstein inks do not make woolly lines, Aveturine has a woolly line that is almost feathering. 

So the ink you use, and the paper have more to do with feathering than the nib.

Pelikan 4001...some say fades....Don't know about Lamy Blue another dry blue....both are school kid inks, so are washable.

Don't spill anything on it.

 

Japanese[anese inks are known to be very wet. Perhaps even wetter than Waterman Blue( got a new funny name that I don't really remember....Serenity blue or such.

If that ink feather's it's your paper.

 

[samasry]

  On 6/20/2021 at 11:07 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Samasry.....Is a dusky blue, shades well on 90g or better paper. Doesn't go from blue to black like any good BB ink...some take a day or so to change from blue to black.

Pelikan 4001 is the driest inks, and BB the driest of them, but if you are willing the 4001 turquoise, is a nice dry shading turquoise. Or Lamy's.

 

Laser paper  is best. But I'm after two toned shading inks.

Ink Jet is the feather champ.

 

Laser and ink jet is a compromise. I've some Southworth that is nice paper in spite of that. Rhoda is a nice slick non-feathering paper..

Samasry, what paper are you using?

And what ink....are you having a woolly line, or is it actually feathering.

 

I'm OCD on wooly lines, much less fethereing.

For example most of my Pelikan Edelstein inks do not make woolly lines, Aveturine has a woolly line that is almost feathering. 

So the ink you use, and the paper have more to do with feathering than the nib.

Pelikan 4001...some say fades....Don't know about Lamy Blue another dry blue....both are school kid inks, so are washable.

Don't spill anything on it.

 

Japanese[anese inks are known to be very wet. Perhaps even wetter than Waterman Blue( got a new funny name that I don't really remember....Serenity blue or such.

If that ink feather's it's your paper.

 

Expand  

 

 

Here is a summary of the paper that I have used so far  for  bulk usage