An alternative look at ink wetness

[LizEF]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:20 PM, LizEF said:

I can't go forward without a 32-bit version of Windows.

Hooray for crazy aunts who keep that old Windows XP computer you gave her years ago!

 

Smear of Organics Studio Walt Whitman Leaves of Grass Dark Green at 100x

[InesF]

7 hours ago, LizEF said:

Smear of Organics Studio Walt Whitman Leaves of Grass Dark Green at 100x

Great! +1 👍

One more thread required: microscopic photos of dried ink smears!

The feather structure of this one reminds me on crystallisation of magnesium-ammonium-phosphate (Struvite).

[InesF]

7 hours ago, arcfide said:

Can you define exactly what you mean by that? 

Got me! 😉

Maybe I can't do a universal definition, but what I mean is:

A pen/feed/nib unit that releases more ink when you begin writing and can't keep up to deliver the required amount (the required flow) during ongoing writing when you write with "constant" speed.

I did this test with many of my fountain pens before starting the ink wetness measurements in prospect of avoiding artefacts from nib drying or flow starvation - and also to differentiate between these both similar looking effects.

[LizEF]

4 hours ago, InesF said:

Great! +1 👍

One more thread required: microscopic photos of dried ink smears!

The feather structure of this one reminds me on crystallisation of magnesium-ammonium-phosphate (Struvite).

I was considering doing just that.  I think I'll have to clean the slides and re-use them since I only have so many, and can't see a reason to keep them.  Maybe I'll add them to my reviews... (Though if so, it'll have to wait a few months while I get other stuff done.)

[arcfide]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:34 AM, LizEF said:

Actually, on review, they all seem quite boring.

 

If you have a Platinum Music feed, the nib is interesting in that it has a side air channel design that connects with the lower fins and a "breather hole" on the bottom that is also the primary filler hole, I think. Thus, it ends up having a total of three channels cut into the feed as well as two different fin widths and spacings and an additional sleeve in the section to protect the main nipple of the feed. What I find interesting is how the design would essentially force the air to travel in a sort of zig zag pattern around the feed. 

 

I wish I could get a second feed or spare music nibs, as I want to experiment with widening up the channels and see what that does to the flow, but I do not dare to do that to my current pen without a clear way to replace the inevitably damaged part. 

[LizEF]

7 minutes ago, arcfide said:

If you have a Platinum Music feed

Nope, don't.  I think Platinum 3776 has something similar, but it's hard to be sure. I'm thinking videos would have been more useful.

 

9 minutes ago, arcfide said:

I wish I could get a second feed or spare music nibs, as I want to experiment with widening up the channels and see what that does to the flow, but I do not dare to do that to my current pen without a clear way to replace the inevitably damaged part. 

I would feel the same.  Wish everyone sold "parts" like Lamy appear to.

[gerigo]

I have tried to follow this thread as I have always been fascinated with the topic of ink wetness or dryness. This fascination did not start until I started a more serious study of Chinese calligraphy. The way Chinese is written, there is a lot of detail in each character and with a wet ink, the details can get negated. Ink wetness was never an issue in my first 4-5 years of collecting while I wrote using the Western alphabet or was trying Western calligraphy.

 

Being a simpleton that I am, I really find it hard to follow some of the more technical details of this conversation. With a rather extensive collection of pens of about 300-400, I have now the ability to observe the behavior of ink, nib and paper as many have described. While I also have an extensive collection of inks, I tend to now only use Pelikan Brilliant Brown as the starter inks for all pens, especially new ones. I use it because I like the look of the ink, most importantly, and conveniently it's very easy to clean out of pens. Starting new pens this way has led me to learn a lot more about the behavior of each pen nib in relation to the ones I already have. More importantly it has allowed me to compare the relatively wetness of a nib so that I can level up or down between the combination of paper and ink based on the outcome I hope to achieve.

 

My yardstick for wetness or dryness of ink.

A Montblanc medium nib on Tomoe River 52 GSM paper with a 5mm Grid.

Dry inks I now use consistently.
Kyo no oto Hisoku

Kyo Iro Moon over Higashiyama

I have also found that Montblanc's LE inks are formulated to be drier with the likes of Victor Hugo, China Blue, Purdey and Sons Tobacco.

 

Here are some observations.

Montblanc medium nibs aren't super wet like Pelikans but are on the broader side compared with steel mediums. I have found that with a drier inks, the nib behaves well and is quite expressive on Tomoe River. Details can be seen on Chinese characters. I really like to use Tomoe River with drier performing nibs. It makes these nibs perform wetter.

 

There is something about paper like Rhodia and Marumen that can tame even the wettest of nibs and bring a level of control to them. This is something that Tomoe River can't do. When Rhodia is used, the Montblanc medium becomes like a fine nib. I frankly prefer to use wet flowing nibs on Rhodia paper. Writing with fine and extra fine nibs on Rhodia feels like you're trying to drag a nail through gypsum powder.

 

Conversely, about inks.
Pelikan Brilliant Brown is not dry. It's definitely not super wet but it's not dry in the way most people think Pelikan 4001 inks are dry. On very wet nibs, it becomes almost black, obviously because the volume of ink is tremendous. But on dry performing nibs, it's a very light insipid orange that's not nice to look at.
Most all Japanese inks are on the wetter side. I now know most all of the Iroshizuku inks are wet.

Most pen manufacturer inks are on the average range of the spectrum; dry to average. Like the Pelikan Brilliant Brown.

 

Last point. I tried what is supposed to be the driest ink on the list that InesF created at my favorite pen store this weekend. The pen specialist and I both thought the Waterman inks as suggested on the list not dry at all.
 

[InesF]

9 hours ago, gerigo said:

Last point. I tried what is supposed to be the driest ink on the list that InesF created at my favorite pen store this weekend. The pen specialist and I both thought the Waterman inks as suggested on the list not dry at all.

Thank you @gerigo for your detailed reply! Always nice to read about personal experiences - welcome!

 

The most important thing is: you need to find what "works best for you".

The measurement project had (and has) the intention to measure the amount of ink delivered and to find causes and dependencies for this part of ink behaviour.

 

@LizEF classifies Waterman Serenity Blue in her EF ink review also as comparably wet. With almost 69 mN/m it is among the group of highest surface tensions within my 68 inks samples and the amount delivered with my two pens was among the lowest of all measured. With this behaviour it follows exactly the overall statistical model.

This is what I can tell.

 

If the ink is more lubricated and therefore subjectively feels to be "wet" or if the freshly drawn wet ink line has a special appearance to suggest "high wetness" is not something that can be measured.

If Waterman Serenity Blue is a wet ink for you, then you are right: it is a wet ink for you.

 

During my fountain pen time, I have emptied around 26 bottles of Waterman Serentity Blue so far, labelled with at least three different designs (or four?) and under two different names. Ink from none of them ever appeared to be wet - to me.

 

This is the point when the circle of arguments closes: The alternative ink wetness theory is a mathematical model. Subjective impressions can be different.

Maybe we can summarise: Waterman Serenity Blue achieves the wettest impression with the least amount of ink laid onto the paper.

Would you agree?

[RJS]

16 minutes ago, InesF said:

Waterman Serenity Blue achieves the wettest impression with the least amount of ink laid onto the paper.

Would you agree?

I would agree. That seems like a fair statement.

 

I find it interesting that to you it didn't "seem" wet, and to @LizEF it didn't seem "well lubricated", but was particularly "wet". A peculiar ink. For me I would have assumed it was very wet and very well lubricated.

[LizEF]

19 minutes ago, InesF said:

Maybe we can summarise: Waterman Serenity Blue achieves the wettest impression with the least amount of ink laid onto the paper.

Thank you, @InesF for answering the question.  I certainly can't argue against this.  And the addition of a lubricant should also explain the slightly fatter line, I think.  This makes me wish we had had this discussion 4 years ago while I was still working as a software developer - I would have sprung for a bottle (of Serenity Blue) and a pen plotter...   Oh well.  I'll just have to take your word for it.  

 

PS: Seems like this could well be (one reason) why this ink is so popular with pen restorers and others for use in evaluating pens.

[InesF]

A small data update today. I have bought 5 new inks and included them in the table (see below), it is one Ferris Wheel Press ink and four from deAtramentis. Still chasing the perfect teal/petrol, F.W.P. Bluegrass Velvet and Lamy Crystal Amazonite are the closest so far. And while I broke my moratorium about fountain pen shopping only once this year, the ink collection will continue to grow...

 

I also added the remark (asterisk) to Pelikan Edelstein Ruby.

 

 

The stealth shimmer of the Edelstein Ruby ink was the most remarkable by-chance discovery of the last six month. Learning from Wikipedia (mea culpa) about rubies and sapphires in general and about their foggy inclusions increased my respect for this underrated P.E. Ruby ink. I guess, the small amount of shimmer should somehow mimic the small amount of rutile in native sapphires, that adds some shimmer effect to them.

[arcfide]

An interesting connection between surface tension and ink wetness I found today: if you widen out the tines on a pen, you generally get a wetter flow, but at the same time, the surface tension of the ink may make it more or less likely to form a meniscus that recedes from the edge of the nib and creates hard starts. 

 

As an example, I have a wetly tuned Nakaya that I've been playing with, and the results I've found is that with some very wet inks (low surface tension), such as Sailor Shikiori Miruai, the pen writes wet when it flows, but the ink will recede from the tip if given a rest, leading to hard starting. On the other hand, some inks that have a higher surface tension and may be drier, such as Waterman Serentiy Blue or some Herbin inks, may not write as wetly, but will write much more consistently since they don't seem to recede as much from the nib. I think that the capillary action with these inks might be a little stronger, and this might encourage them to flow in areas where other inks might not. At least, I think this is the case. At any rate, this might be one reason to explain why Waterman inks, particularly the blues, might have a reputation of working in a great many pens. In very wet pens, or those with a little too much baby's bottom, the Waterman inks may have a tendency to write a little more reliably than some inks with different properties, while also continuing to work in most other pens. 

 

 

[InesF]

Thank you @arcfide for sharing your experience.

That's some interesting details. Especially Waterman Serenity Blue shows strange behaviour and appears to be wet, despite high surface tension and despite measured minimal ink delivery.

You may compare your observations with what's currently discussed in the thread "Experiments with fountain pen wetness" in the "Nibs and tines" section.

While the correlation between ink-air surface tension and ink delivery is comparably strict, there may be some interference between ink ingredients and the plastic surfaces in the ink channel that partly contradict the ink wetness hypothesis. But this is currently discussed and should be experimentally proven ...

Time will tell.

[txomsy]

Please, do take the following as an opinion; it's been too long since I last considered related fluid dynamics problems.

 

Apparent anomalies in behavior might also be due to the writing surface (paper). The surface tension ink/paper is also important for "wetness".

 

With the pen raised, it is the difference in surface tensions between channel (nib included) and air that should counteract gravity (weight of the ink column) to avoid leaks. When put to a writing surface, that changes the interface from air to a new surface and the properties of the system change.

 

If the paper "attracts" ink a lot stronger than the nib/feed, then it will draw ink out of the pen and the ink will seem wetter. Roughness may increase the contact surface and paper contribution. I'd guess that even if the channel exerts a stronger attraction for the ink than the paper surface, then ink might still be drawn out by friction with the paper surface, but then the ink would be harder to "extract", resulting in skipping and rough surfaces working better. (Note: here, the angle at which you hold the pen also affects ink flow, by changing the height (and weight) of the ink column and the surface of the nib tip in contact with paper/writing surface).

 

Ink viscosity is a result of "internal cohesion", derived from the electrostatic attraction between component molecules (and possibly presence of non-soluble particles). you may think of pH as an indicator of fluid charge. I.e. pH may have an impact in flow, both within the channel, and in ink drawn-out by writing surfaces.

 

In addition, in the presence of H+, some materials may ionize and change their properties.

 

Silicate glass, for instance, is known to acquire a negative surface charge in water. Cellulose has lots of -OH groups that can be negatively charged in a watery environment. If cellulose paper is coated its surface properties may also be expected to change (and therefore electrostatic attraction for the ink). The last part of the ink channel is a metal, basically a "sea of (relatively loose) electrons" (simply put), and while the total charge may be neutral, those electrons are loosely retained and may be ionized by water flow and affected by pH.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274547009_pH-dependent_surface_charging_of_metal_oxides

 

So, the same ink and pen combination will be wetter or drier depending on the writing surface. Depending on pH, cellulose will be more or less ionized and its charge and therefore the attraction/repulsion it exerts over ink will be different. The nib surface may also change behavior with the pH of the ink. This may also be affected by the way the paper was prepared.

 

See for instance:

 

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:823180/FULLTEXT01.pdf

 

So, what I mean is, apparent anomalies in ink wetness may be due to differences in ink pH, pen design and paper chosen.

 

Same for the meniscus when you separate tines: if ink cohesion (internal charge) is larger than the attraction of tine internals sides -when seen in air- ink should go up, otherwise it should drop out due to gravity (both phenomena we are all familiar with). But as soon as you put it to a writing surface the system will change (no longer air, but other interface plays). Just as if you force a bit of ink out: the contact surface with air increases, air traction also does, gravity of the ink too, and you get a drop out.

 

This said, I doubt any ink or pen maker worries about this: as long as a design does not cause significant leaks (for the standard at the time of making), allows ink to flow and writes in most papers, whether the system behaves or not will always be a function of the combination of ink/pen/paper and there will always be exceptions, so no need to care, and they already have lots of experience with many designs to know what works without need for exact measurements.

[InesF]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

"sea of (relatively loose) electrons"

Thank you @txomsy for your long and well thought reply.

Sure, the paper is a major player in the trio infernal, especially concerning visual behaviour and final result of a drawn ink line. Therefore, comparing ink wetnesses can only be done relative to each other, when using the same pen and paper. In this scenario, the commonly anticipated wet Waterman Serenity Blue has among the lowest possible ink amount laid onto the paper.

 

I cited the phrase because it initiated a strange association about the "sea of simulation" from the movie Tron. For a moment, for a short moment, I saw the sea of electrons in front of me ...

(you made my day!) 😇

[arcfide]

15 hours ago, txomsy said:

This said, I doubt any ink or pen maker worries about this: as long as a design does not cause significant leaks (for the standard at the time of making), allows ink to flow and writes in most papers, whether the system behaves or not will always be a function of the combination of ink/pen/paper and there will always be exceptions, so no need to care, and they already have lots of experience with many designs to know what works without need for exact measurements.

 

I don't know about that. While they certainly have something that works well right now, I think getting there did require some good chemical research. In particular, more than one manufacturer of pens has spoken about having to pay very careful attention to the particular surface coating and texturization of their feeds in order to ensure the appropriate ink flow in a plastic feed. And the fact that some manufacturers are willing to make relatively small changes to their designs in order to account for distinctions in very minor flow changes, it seems reasonable to me to assume that they at least are working with a wide range of practical experience that accounts for many of the underlying details including paper and ink types. 

 

I don't know if the makers are doing really detailed fluid dynamics simulations against all the paper types (the paper manufacturing process probably isn't precise enough to be able to take advantage of that), but I certainly expect that they are thinking about the interaction of paper, ink and nibs, to be sure. I do wonder how much pre-prototype testing/verification they do rather than purely physical experimentation. Do they have methods of producing lots of prototypes that they can then test against lots of inks and papers with various nibs, or do they go through a lot of math first to narrow the field down? At the very least its clear that a lot of work goes into balancing this overall equation, but I'd be very curious to know how much of this is purely experimental with physical prototypes and how much of it they are able to figure out with the math ahead of time. 

[txomsy]

Yep, I''d like to know too.

[dipper]

Bert: "Surface tension holds ink up inside a fountain pen, causes reduced pressure in the ink chamber, and stops the ink pouring out as a wet puddle."

 

Ernie: "Surface tension creates capilliary effects that draw ink out of the pen onto the paper."

 

Uh oooh.... sounds like Bert and Ernie are arguing again!

 

It's complicated.... 😃

[txomsy]

Only on the surface

 

Consider that when the pen is inked and alone, the interface of ink at the nib tip is with air, but when writing it is with paper, each of which have different properties.

 

Not to say there is no argument, but it is neither a total opposition.

[dipper]

15 hours ago, txomsy said:

Not to say there is no argument, but it is neither a total opposition.

I agree 100%

That's why I pretended to quote the Sesame Street puppets "Bert & Ernie" - Firm friends, who are always half-arguing and half-agreeing, with hilarious consequences.