Modern vs vintage pen life expectancy: where will they be 70 years from now?

[TheDutchGuy]

Pondering the question in what state my pens will be 70 years from now (hint: in a far better state than me), assuming the same sort of use that my vintage pens have seen over the last 70 years. Took a few modern pens, two 80s/90s pens and few vintage pens, taking care to pick fairly representative pens from each era.

 

VINTAGE

These already have 70-odd years on the clock, the black pen at the bottom is from ca. 1920. All have been professionally maintained.

 

 

Top F.L.T.R.: 50s Parker 51 Aerometric (14k), late-30s Sheaffer Balanced lever filler (14k), late-40s Onoto 5601 vac filler (14k), 50s Esterbrook SJ Jr lever filler (steel). Bottom: ca. 1920 bakelite lever filler (steel).

 

80s/90s PENS (“modern vintage”)

 

 

MB 146 (14C) and Pelikan M800 (18C).

 

MODERN

 

 

F.L.T.R.: Sailor Pro Gear Slim (14k), Pilot Justus 95 (14k), Visconti Homo Sapiens Lava Bronze (18k), Leonardo Furore (steel), Kaweco Sport (steel).

 

My guess would be: with the kind of use that the vintage pens have had over the last 70-odd years and assuming normal maintenance, the four vintage pens in the top row (excluding the 1920 black one) + the 146 + the M800 + the Homo Sapiens will still be around and in good working order in 2091, though it might be a stretch for the Onoto. I’d expect the Sailor, the Pilot, the Leonardo and the Kaweco to fall apart at some point, though the nibs might stand the test of time.

 

My expectation is based on the assumption that most modern pens are not designed for a lifetime of daily use, with the notable exception of the more expensive, heavy-duty pens like the MB 146/149, the higher-end Pelikans and such. My own 146 and M800 have seen 30-odd years of use, are in very good shape and show no indications of wear and tear. These models have also been in the catalogue for decades and have paid their dues. As much as I adore my Pilots, Sailors, Opus 88s, Kawecos, etc, I doubt that they will last the next 20 years (never mind 70) of daily use. Despite their doubtful reputation, I _do_ expect all of my Viscontis to endure. The ones I’ve been blessed with seem to be really well-made. The vintage pens, however, will almost certainly last. A new sac and some seals every now and then and they’re good to go. Those were designed for all day, everyday use. Pens like that Sheaffer Balanced and the Estie will easily outlive me.

 

Am I wrong to doubt the life expectancy of the modern ones? Or to put my trust in the vintage ones?

[genedan]

Do any of your Viscontis have the magnetized cap? I've got some Van Goghs and I believe the pull will weaken over time.

[sgphototn]

Interesting topic. I think my YOL and ebonites will make 70 years, along with lacquer-over- brass Italix pens. Nibs, both gold and steel should last. In some cases feeds may suffer along with converters, but not like pen sacs and certain mechanical filling systems.

 

I think vintage celluloids and modern celluloids will have more problems as time goes on from what I've read.

 

It may be eyedroppers outlast them all! 😊

 

Of course there's all the variables:  storage, environment, cleanliness of pens and nibs, etc., which are major factors.

 

Then there's luck.

[OMASsimo]

Not quite sure what you’re aiming at with your question and assumptions. Are trying to say that vintage pens are more long lived than modern ones? I think that there’s no simple answer to that and none of us knows what will be in 70 years from now. But even in the "good old days" of fountain pens, there was a wide scatter of quality and durability. And of course, the same applies today.

 

I’m very fond of vintage pens, I have a large number of them, and I use them for everyday work. I own far less "modern" pens (I bought my last "new" pen in 2009) and so, they are a bit less frequently in rotation. Owning a lot of pens like many enthusiasts here means that every single pen on average will be used a lot less than if I’d only own a single or a couple of pens (as I did when I was younger). So, it’s hard to tell whether my experience can be extrapolated to the future or other users that easily.

 

Anyway, here are a few of my thoughts. The nibs will all outlive us unless someone breaks them by brute force. I don’t think that there’s much difference in longevity of at least high quality nibs between past and present. But I’d think that low quality modern nibs will outlast low quality vintage ones by far. Keep in mind that the poorest quality vintage pens probably don’t show up anymore because they already ended up in the rubbish.

 

The barrel material is a different story. The lifetime of the organic polymer materials used since the late 1880s is not easily predictable independent of wear an tear. But we can assume that organic and polymer chemistry made huge progress over the decades. I personally love the old celluloid pens but there are known cases of "celluloid rot" and complete disintegration of pen barrels. There’s also an issue with shrinkage. With the development of synthetic polymers and injection moulding, new materials became available in the 1940s/50s and many of them are still used. A few top brands like Montblanc and Geha (and some post 1965 Pelikans) used materials that turned out problematic, you find lots of cracked barrels an caps. My impression is that I find less cracked pens from lesser producers. But that could have a different reason, namely that those cracked pens without a prestigious brand name were tossed more deliberately.

 

i think that the quality of modern materials is much improved and there is no excuse anymore for cracked barrels. Of course, there still can be poor design and engineering. The thing that drove me into the vintage pen world was my Montblanc Generation from the 1990s, my first expensive pen. It developed a hairline crack at the section within a few years and I wrote with blue fingers thinking it was my fault. When the crack got big enough to notice it, I sent it in to Montblanc and they generously repaired it for free (their customer service was exquisite those days). But it only took a couple of years and a new crack developed! By now I know that the reason was poor design. It pushed me to buy my first used pen, a pre 1990 Pelikan M600 and I was blown away by the quality. And then I bought my first Pelikan 140 and I was blown away by the nib! Long story short, modern pens probably have better potential to survive the next 70 years in terms of material but it depends on their construction as well. Time tested vintage pens have great potential in terms of robust construction but it’s not certain that the materials remains stable.

[silverlifter]

5 hours ago, TheDutchGuy said:

My expectation is based on the assumption that most modern pens are not designed for a lifetime of daily use

 

My Kaweco AL Sport will still be writing long after my great grandchildren are gone. As will my Conid. The materials and construction of some modern pens, even at the (relatively) lower ends of the price range like the Kaweco, will put vintage pens to shame in terms of longevity. Whether there is anyone around to write with them at that time is another question... 😛

[TgeekB]

Fountain pens are fairly simple products that should last for a very long time. 

[Nurmister]

The main issue with cartridge/converter pens may likely be the availability of converters in the long-term. Other than that, wear-and-tear on most well-designed pens shouldn't be too much of an issue given the materials modern pens are made with seem quite stable.

[silverlifter]

9 minutes ago, Nurmister said:

The main issue with cartridge/converter pens may likely be the availability of converters in the long-term.

 

Sacs for lever fillers are readily available today; it seems unlikely that cartridges or converters will be unaccountably scarce in decades to come.

[Nurmister]

46 minutes ago, silverlifter said:

 

Sacs for lever fillers are readily available today; it seems unlikely that cartridges or converters will be unaccountably scarce in decades to come.

 

Yes, that is my hope, given sacs for specific models (rather than just the standard sized ones) are still available. That being said, sacs are easier to reproduce than a CON-70, for example. Perhaps 3D-printing will fill in any gaps. I don't see fountain pens ever being that popular anymore, but the market and community is certainly still "alive". I don't see this changing even as technology permeates our lives further.

[Checklist]

2 hours ago, OMASsimo said:

But even in the "good old days" of fountain pens, there was a wide scatter of quality and durability.

 

I think this gets to the heart of the difference.  All the lower-quality vintage pens have been winnowed out by use and deterioration, while the durable ones have generally made their way to people who take good care of them, greatly extending an already-long life expectancy.  If this forum lasts this long, people will be asking in 70 years if their modern pens will last as long as their 75-year-old Pelikans, Pilots, and Lamy 2000s or their 150-year-old Esterbrooks and Parker 51s.

[TheDutchGuy]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts! Makes for interesting reading.

 

10 hours ago, OMASsimo said:

Are trying to say that vintage pens are more long lived than modern ones?

 

It’s an open question based on the observation that my vintage pens are 70-odd yrs old, have seen heavy daily use for decades, and are still going strong both cosmetically and technically.

 

Interesting points about materials and celluloid issues. If I put (for example) my vintage Onoto next to (for example) my Sailor 1911 Standard, then I would say that the Onoto is of higher durability. Its material just inspires confidence somehow, whereas the plastic of the 1911 tells me to enjoy it while it lasts. On further thought, this isn’t very objective and depends on many factors.

 

10 hours ago, OMASsimo said:

Keep in mind that the poorest quality vintage pens probably don’t show up anymore because they already ended up in the rubbish.

 

8 hours ago, Checklist said:

All the lower-quality vintage pens have been winnowed out by use and deterioration, while the durable ones have generally made their way to people who take good care of them, greatly extending an already-long life expectancy.

 

Very good point, thank you!

 

10 hours ago, silverlifter said:

My Kaweco AL Sport will still be writing long after my great grandchildren are gone.

 

Agreed. So would mine, had I not lost it on a train somewhere. I loved that pen.

[TheDutchGuy]

14 hours ago, genedan said:

Do any of your Viscontis have the magnetized cap? I've got some Van Goghs and I believe the pull will weaken over time.

 

Visconti and Pineider use magnets for some of their lower-range pens and for various reasons I’m not fond of it. I’m not sure if (or how fast) a magnet de-magnetizes. Time will tell.

[como]

The answer is a bit more complicated, as many have pointed out the different factors in many of the above posts. One thing is that some modern pens are constructed in a way that is not self-serviceable (can't be taken apart and parts cannot be made by third party easily). Once the manufacturer goes out of business, sooner or later no spare parts can be sourced, so broken pens can't go on anymore. Anything of proprietary nature would be more difficult to service by third parties. Some enthusiasts will always try to find a solution, while most other users will just give up. I am not sure if vintage pens have longer life expectancy, though intuitively I would guess so, a bit like the way people can tinker their old cars, but much less so with the modern ones. 

[amk]

I think there are one thing that will help many modern pens is the fact that they use standard Bock or Jowo nibs so that the nibs are easily swapped. 

 

The main factor in pens breaking up is the material used for the barrel, but the problem is that pen manufacturers don't give the details other than saying 'celluloid' or 'precious resin' or whatever. The number of Waterman 1980s pens I've seen with white death fungus eating away the end of the black plastic sections suggests there was something badly wrong with them. I hear of some pens that are cracking already at 5 or 10 years old or even sooner... 

 

And I think FPs nowadays get more respect from their users. So perhaps there won't be so many bargains in 50 years' time, like my thoroughly chewed Parker Duofold or the number of 1930s English and French 'fude' pens I've acquired and had to repair.

[Estycollector]

The OP said his/her have been "professionally maintained". Most of us know that anything used and maintained tend to last longer than someone not used and worse, not properly maintained. 

 

At present none of my pens need the skills of a professional. I either bought them restored, the Parker 51's, or restored them  mysel. Most are as old or older than me (1955). 

[fabri00]

13 hours ago, Nurmister said:

Perhaps 3D-printing will fill in any gaps. 

 

There is no need of 3d priming: with a lathe almost any part of a fountain pen can be reproduced, except the nib.

This is since probably 70 - 80 years, and the advantage comparing with 3d printing is that with a lathe is possible to create parts in any material, including ebonite and celluloid.

In many years of repairing my fountain pens by myself, I never found a part not reproducible using my small and cheap lathe or other simply tools. 

Again, except the nib.

 

 

 

[BigBlot]

21 hours ago, TheDutchGuy said:

Pondering the question in what state my pens will be 70 years from now (hint: in a far better state than me), assuming the same sort of use that my vintage pens have seen over the last 70 years. Took a few modern pens, two 80s/90s pens and few vintage pens, taking care to pick fairly representative pens from each era.

 

VINTAGE

These already have 70-odd years on the clock, the black pen at the bottom is from ca. 1920. All have been professionally maintained.

 

 

Top F.L.T.R.: 50s Parker 51 Aerometric (14k), late-30s Sheaffer Balanced lever filler (14k), late-40s Onoto 5601 vac filler (14k), 50s Esterbrook SJ Jr lever filler (steel). Bottom: ca. 1920 bakelite lever filler (steel).

 

80s/90s PENS (“modern vintage”)

 

 

MB 146 (14C) and Pelikan M800 (18C).

 

MODERN

 

 

F.L.T.R.: Sailor Pro Gear Slim (14k), Pilot Justus 95 (14k), Visconti Homo Sapiens Lava Bronze (18k), Leonardo Furore (steel), Kaweco Sport (steel).

 

My guess would be: with the kind of use that the vintage pens have had over the last 70-odd years and assuming normal maintenance, the four vintage pens in the top row (excluding the 1920 black one) + the 146 + the M800 + the Homo Sapiens will still be around and in good working order in 2091, though it might be a stretch for the Onoto. I’d expect the Sailor, the Pilot, the Leonardo and the Kaweco to fall apart at some point, though the nibs might stand the test of time.

 

My expectation is based on the assumption that most modern pens are not designed for a lifetime of daily use, with the notable exception of the more expensive, heavy-duty pens like the MB 146/149, the higher-end Pelikans and such. My own 146 and M800 have seen 30-odd years of use, are in very good shape and show no indications of wear and tear. These models have also been in the catalogue for decades and have paid their dues. As much as I adore my Pilots, Sailors, Opus 88s, Kawecos, etc, I doubt that they will last the next 20 years (never mind 70) of daily use. Despite their doubtful reputation, I _do_ expect all of my Viscontis to endure. The ones I’ve been blessed with seem to be really well-made. The vintage pens, however, will almost certainly last. A new sac and some seals every now and then and they’re good to go. Those were designed for all day, everyday use. Pens like that Sheaffer Balanced and the Estie will easily outlive me.

 

Am I wrong to doubt the life expectancy of the modern ones? Or to put my trust in the vintage ones?

In seventy years, I expect all my fountain pens to be discarded. I'm the only one in my family who cares to use them. Really, I'm the only one to care about using a good pen at all. For our 25th wedding anniversary, I gave my wife a silver cross pen and pencil set, and years later they remain in the box, never used. She just as soon use the cheapest disposable pen she can find. The kids have a similar attitude. Therefore, when I die, my pens will likely be discarded.

 

Now, let us assume that they decide to keep them for sentimental value. Let us also assume they'll be able to buy convertors and cartridges for them. I expect my cheapest pen, a Jinhao 911, to be functional. The plastic caps on the Platinum Preppies will likely be cracked long ago. Other pens (the most expensive a Metropolitan) will still be functional. Why? Because while they aren't vintage, at the end of the day a pen is a pen, and if it's not designed to be disposable or with easily cracked plastic, it will likely last as long as those of vintage era, if not longer.

[TheDutchGuy]

On 5/16/2021 at 1:02 PM, Estycollector said:

The OP said his/her have been "professionally maintained".

 

Meaning that sac renewal and similar work is done by a pro.

 

On 5/16/2021 at 2:39 PM, BigBlot said:

Therefore, when I die, my pens will likely be discarded.

 

That’s a sobering thought…

 

On 5/16/2021 at 1:54 PM, fabri00 said:

In many years of repairing my fountain pens by myself, I never found a part not reproducible using my small and cheap lathe or other simply tools.  Again, except the nib.

 

This is something that I’d like to look into! I’ll get a small lathe one day. But no doubt the learning curve will be steep.

[TheDutchGuy]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:39 AM, amk said:

And I think FPs nowadays get more respect from their users.

 

I’ve got a couple of colleagues who use FP’s every day (mostly sub-€75 Lamy’s) but somehow don’t really seem to bond with them. They see them and use them as tools and these pens tend to have a hard life. Their kids get their hands on them, they roll off tables, when the ink is finished they’ll use another pen for a month without cleaning the FP, etc. Then if the pen won’t write, they come to me to fix the nib or any other issue. Apart from irrepairable nib damage, those Lamy’s can take a real beating. And nibs that I can’t fix are easily and cheaply replaced. I’m not big on Lamy myself, but as rough ‘n tumble daily warriors they stand their ground.

[sgphototn]

Since we're discussing modern and vintage pens as relates to longevity and reliability of the materials used, it seems to me that ebonite pens have two problems, at least what I know about early 20th century ebonites. 

 

With ebonites one problem is oxidation. It may be serious and impossible to remove or it may be nothing that can't be removed by a simple deoxidizing solution. Of course there's lots of room in between those scenarios. 

 

The second problem is shrinkage where seals fail and perhaps it's difficult to install a feed or nib unit.

 

Other than those two situations, I can't find anything major that happens to ebonite pens that are properly-handled and maintained.

 

What am I missing as to problems with ebonite material?