Should a well tuned nib work with many different inks? Also dry ones

[Detman101]

48 minutes ago, rb120134 said:

Is it normal when you leave a fountain pen capped and unused for like a night(8-9 hours) and the next morning I start to write with it, it starts writing with the second or third stroke? Or should it write right away at the first stroke?

I would say that pen and pen-cap are not airtight...causing the ink to dry up on the nib, thereby causing "Hard Starts".
I never have that issue with my Opus-88, but it was a persistent problem with my old Penbbs-355 pens.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Detman101 said:

it was a persistent problem with my old Penbbs-355 pens.

 

I just pulled out my PenBBS 355 (fitted again with its original, slightly-upturned F nib) and wrote with it for the first time in about five days. No hard start, and left a decent unbroken line of ink with the first stroke.

 

The pen is filled with Diamine Jalur Gemilang (as it always is), if that matters.

[OMASsimo]

10 hours ago, rb120134 said:

Is it normal when you leave a fountain pen capped and unused for like a night(8-9 hours) and the next morning I start to write with it, it starts writing with the second or third stroke? Or should it write right away at the first stroke?

It should write without hard starts right away even when capped and unused for days. Most of my pens would start without skipping even after months. If a pen doesn’t, the most common cause is that the cap doesn’t seal well enough. It also could be that the nib tipping is slightly baby bottomed.

[A Smug Dill]

11 hours ago, rb120134 said:

Is it normal when you leave a fountain pen capped and unused for like a night(8-9 hours) and the next morning I start to write with it, it starts writing with the second or third stroke?

 

So, given the replies above on this page of posts, …

 

It may be “normal”, and from user experience and/or results of physical examination, be expected that your/a particular fountain pen would behave that way, if you know that its cap seal is ineffective at preventing ink evaporation.

 

11 hours ago, rb120134 said:

Or should it write right away at the first stroke?

 

Whether that is common among a broader base of many different models and/or makes of fountain pens, and whether that behaviour is acceptable to you (cf. “should”) in a writing instrument, is a different question.

 

Personally I'd throw my pen out in the trash if its cap seal performs that poorly.

[rb120134]

But the GvFC fountain pen that I am talking about has a screw cap? How can that not seal well? 

[A Smug Dill]

16 minutes ago, rb120134 said:

But the GvFC fountain pen that I am talking about has a screw cap? How can that not seal well?

 

A screw-cap doesn't guarantee better sealing performance than a snap-cap. For example, the Platinum #3776 Century (Tortoiseshell) Celluloid pen I have, absent a spring-loaded inner cap inside its screw-cap, is inferior in its sealing performance to the much cheaper Platinum Plaisir and Preppy pens equipped with snap-caps (and Slip&Seal spring-loaded inner caps).

 

For a more extreme example, the Moonman M6 has a screw-cap, but its cap sealing performance is a bad joke. Look for reviews of that pen model, and you'll see many anecdotal reports of the issue; I had one, and my experience corroborates, as much as I really wanted to like the pen (but just can't). You can also find many complaints in the same vein about the recent Conklin All American models.

[rb120134]

3 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

A screw-cap doesn't guarantee better sealing performance than a snap-cap. For example, the Platinum #3776 Century (Tortoiseshell) Celluloid pen I have, absent a spring-loaded inner cap inside its screw-cap, is inferior in its sealing performance to the much cheaper Platinum Plaisir and Preppy pens equipped with snap-caps (and Slip&Seal spring-loaded inner caps).

 

For a more extreme example, the Moonman M6 has a screw-cap, but its cap sealing performance is a bad joke. Look for reviews of that pen model, and you'll see many anecdotal reports of the issue; I had one, and my experience corroborates, as much as I really wanted to like the pen (but just can't). You can also find many complaints in the same vein about the recent Conklin All American models.

Interesting, I always taught that Screw caps were better in terms of sealing and durability. That snap caps would get looser over time and not seal as well as a screw caps

[A Smug Dill]

2 minutes ago, rb120134 said:

Interesting, I always taught that Screw caps were better in terms of sealing and durability. That snap caps would get looser over time and not seal as well as a screw caps

 

Threads on screw-caps, and their counterparts on the barrel, may not fit so perfectly together, either because of issues in the quality of manufacture and machining from the get-go, or from wear and tear and/or inadvertent damage with long-term use.

 

As for snap-caps, if the physical component that provides the ‘snap’ is also the part responsible for tightly sealing the nib and feed when capped, then yes, with repeated use and wear and tear, the cap seal effectiveness will deteriorate over time. On the other hand, if a different component (e.g. spring-loaded inner cap that presses against and rotates with the front end of the gripping section) is responsible for sealing the nib and feed, then wear and tear on the ‘snap’ part does not have to compromise cap seal effectiveness.

[rb120134]

13 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Threads on screw-caps, and their counterparts on the barrel, may not fit so perfectly together, either because of issues in the quality of manufacture and machining from the get-go, or from wear and tear and/or inadvertent damage with long-term use.

 

As for snap-caps, if the physical component that provides the ‘snap’ is also the part responsible for tightly sealing the nib and feed when capped, then yes, with repeated use and wear and tear, the cap seal effectiveness will deteriorate over time. On the other hand, if a different component (e.g. spring-loaded inner cap that presses against and rotates with the front end of the gripping section) is responsible for sealing the nib and feed, then wear and tear on the ‘snap’ part does not have to compromise cap seal effectiveness.

"if a different component (e.g. spring-loaded inner cap that presses against and rotates with the front end of the gripping section) is responsible for sealing the nib and feed, then wear and tear on the ‘snap’ part does not have to compromise cap seal effectiveness." 

 

How can I find out if a snap cap has this mechanism. For instance, the S.T Dupont Line D, does this use the snap cap mechanism I quoted above?

[OMASsimo]

I think it's less of a question whether or not it's possible to design a tightly sealing snap cap that's durable. But it's a lot easier to achieve this with a screw cap. By the way, my GvFC Guilloche has a snap cap that seals perfectly well. And my S.T. Dupont Elipsis also has a snap cap that shows no issues at all. I can leave these pens inked and unused for weeks and they'll start writing on the first stroke! Even my Matador Click introduced in 1949, famous for it's early sealing slip cap, still seals perfectly and writes with no hard starts whatsoever. I'm inclined to think that your problem is either the way you hold the pen or a very subtle form of baby bottom.

[A Smug Dill]

13 hours ago, rb120134 said:

How can I find out if a snap cap has this mechanism.

 

By physical inspection, I suppose? I didn't even know that the Sailor Promenade's screw-cap has such a mechanism, until @Olya mentioned it in the forum, even though I have and used one of those pens for a while. I poked its visible inner cap gently with a cotton swab on a stem, and confirmed that it is spring-loaded and bouncy; and the cotton ball provides enough friction to check whether the cap would rotate against the spring that is supporting it. The same type of inspection or testing should work for snap-caps as well, to determine if it has that kind of mechanism.

[Runnin_Ute]

One thing I didn't see mentioned, and it may or may not be a contributing factor. The paper itself. Some coated papers, such as Rhodia or Clairefontaine will absorb hand oils, so if at the top of the page things are normal, but your pen starts skipping as you go down the page it might be the problem.  The solution is to put some blotting paper or just a sheet of scratch paper under your hand. 

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:31 PM, rb120134 said:

Is it normal when you leave a fountain pen capped and unused for like a night(8-9 hours) and the next morning I start to write with it, it starts writing with the second or third stroke? Or should it write right away at the first stroke?

 

If you are talking about the "dry up" issue, then as far as you are using FPs with air tight caps such as Pelikan Souverän M800 or Twisbi Diamond 580 AL, I should say in general the nibs should not be dried out in 8 hours. The nibs would not be dried out for months (Pilot Kakuno with breathing hole on its cap may not even have the dry up issue for months) . If you are using some of the modern Parker FPs, yes, there is a tendency for their nibs to be dried out relatively quickly. (Platinum 3776 Century is NOT necessarily superior  regarding the dry up issue. It is about the same as Pilot or Sailor. What Platinum is saying is, eh, frankly marketing.) That is to say, I do not think the dry up issue is NOT really a common cause for hard starts. If you really suspect the dry up issue, dip your pen into a cup of water before you start writing, though I doubt dry up is the cause of the hard starts.  

[A Smug Dill]

4 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

(Platinum 3776 Century is NOT necessarily superior  regarding the dry up issue. It is about the same as Pilot or Sailor. What Platinum is saying is, eh, frankly marketing.)

 

Does Platinum say in its marketing that the #3776 Century's cap seal performance is superior to Pilot's or Sailor's? I see Platinum's “frankly marketing” claiming that its pens with the Slip&Seal mechanism will not dry out completely even if left capped and unused for a year, and I don't have any first-hand experience to the contrary that disproves the company's express claims.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

On 4/24/2021 at 3:49 AM, rb120134 said:

Or a nib tuning problem?

 

Not necessarily. Suppose you have a perfect Pelikan Souverän M1000 3B. You can very easily have the ink skip big time. Not for just one stroke, but for an entire word or sentence. This can easily happen when you are using a glossy paper. Or you are rotating the pen. Or you are putting your nib onto a paper not in the proper angle (i.e. the sweet spot is not touching the paper). Of course, an F nib is significantly forgiving. And a stiff nib is more forgiving. (The Pilot WA nib is VERY forgiving.)

 

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

 

33 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

Does Platinum say in its marketing that the #3776 Century's cap seal performance is superior to Pilot's or Sailor's?

 

No.　But it is my impression that they are giving impression that they have innovated something revolutionary. So, it is my impression that they are giving impression that their products do not dry up compared with other conventional FPs, which is not true.

 

33 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

I don't have any first-hand experience to the contrary that disproves the company's express claims.

 

The only one FP I own which gave me ink dry up issue big time is Platinum 3776 Century. I used it every day and I cleaned the FP regularly. But my Platinum 3776 Century is completely dried out in hours, I brought the FP to Platinum. They told me the FP was deflective.  Yes, I bought the one new. Note that I strongly believe that was an isolate incident. That is I guess I was unlucky and the similar thing would probably not be happening to others. And there must be many happy users of the FP. But yes, I do have first hand experience. As far as the dry up issue is concerned, in my peroneal experience, Platinum 3776 Century has been the worst since that is the only one FP I had the issue. I do own Parker Sonnet.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

32 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

Does Platinum say in its marketing that the #3776 Century's cap seal performance is superior to Pilot's or Sailor's?

 

Now if you ignore my bad commands in English,  by the way, do you agree they are NOT superior? If so, let me say that was all what I was saying. Sorry for my lack of rigorous wording.  

[A Smug Dill]

22 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

But it is my impression that they are giving impression that they have innovated something revolutionary.

 

Was Platinum successful in securing a patent for its Slip&Seal mechanism? If so, then there must be sufficient originality in the design that is functionally effective; but it doesn't imply that the outcome is unique, revolutionary, and/or unobtainable through any other means.

 

22 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

So, it is my impression that they are giving impression that their products do not dry up compared with other conventional FPs,

 

It just so happens that I recently scanned and uploaded this from the card inside a Platinum Prefounte's retail blister pack:

 

I see nothing either wrong or misleading with Platinum comparing the cap seal performance against the brand's own conventional fountain pen. Of course, you were specifically talking about the #3776 Century's, and not the Prefounte's, marketing, so I'll need to review the relevant marketing collateral to confirm what the specific claim is and how it was worded.

 

17 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

Now if you ignore my bad commands in English,  by the way, do you agree they are NOT superior? If so, let me say that was all what I was saying.

 

I neither agree nor disagree, since you are looking for generalisation of entire brands. In my experience, the cap seal performance of the Platinum #3776 Century and (much cheaper) Plaisir and Preppy pens is far superior to that of the Platinum Balance and Pilot MR; and the cap seal performance of the Pilot Elite 95S and Custom Kaede is far superior to that of the Pilot MR and 78G and the Platinum Balance. You can't just make it into a statement comparing two fountain pen brands on the whole, with regard to a single feature or performance aspect.

 

Is the cap seal performance of the Platinum #3776 Century superior to that of the Custom Kaede? I actually don't know; but it could be, if I were prepared to set aside two of my good pens for a couple of years or longer just to find out. If a 0.5ml fill of ink in the Custom Kaede finally dries out after being capped and largely unused (except for periodic checking) for 24 months, and a 0.5ml fill of ink in the Platinum #3776 Century — stored in the same conditions, side by side — manages to last 27 months before drying out completely, then what? Would you say the Platinum pen's cap seal performance is superior, then, even if the difference wouldn't matter in “real world” usage?

[bunnspecial]

I have started doing some of my own simpler repairs, but the person I use when I need to send one off usually does basic nib tuning as part of every routine repair. He uses only Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue, and usually sets them about medium wet with that ink. I also occasionally buy vintage pens from him. Given that 4001 Royal Blue may be one of the dryest inks in existence, I've found that pens he sets up with it tend to work really well and virtually perfect per my preferences with inks like Waterman Blue or Montblanc Royal Blue. I don't generally use Noodlers, PR, or other "high maintenance" inks in vintage pens(especially not ones where the ink contacts latex or in pens like 51s or capillary 61s where there's tiny passages that are easy to clog, albeit my 51s are no stranger to Penman and the Scribe inks meant to mimick them) but find that pens he's worked on generally get along well with anything I put in them.

 

Occasionally I'll hit on one particular ink combination that doesn't work well with a particular pen-i.e. I've found BSB for whatever reason to not be particularly pleasant in Safaris-but most of what i buy tends to work well if I stick with mainstream inks that are middle of the road wet(Waterman, Montblanc) to dry(Pelikan).

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

9 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Was Platinum successful in securing a patent for its Slip&Seal mechanism? If so, then there must be sufficient originality in the design that is functionally effective; but it doesn't imply that the outcome is unique, revolutionary, and/or unobtainable through any other means.

 

You are 100% correct. That was what I thought, or I guess everyone else thought. 

10 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Would you say the Platinum pen's cap seal performance is superior, then, even if the difference wouldn't matter in “real world” usage?

 

 

9 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Of course, you were specifically talking about the #3776 Century's, and not the Prefounte's, marketing, so I'll need to review the relevant marketing collateral to confirm what the specific claim is and how it was worded.

 

The wording for Century by Platinum is exactly the same. The Prefounte's marketing is completely accurate translation of  what Platinum says in Japen. 

 

10 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Would you say the Platinum pen's cap seal performance is superior, then, even if the difference wouldn't matter in “real world” usage?

 

That is exactly what I want to say.