Lamy 2000 2021 edition?

[sirgilbert357]

I just simply cannot fathom taking this one personally when so many products, limited edition or not, are out of my reach financially. I don't know...I've bought more expensive pens than the brown Lamy too, so clearly paying that much for a pen, isn't an issue to me. I don't see the problem with the pricing, even though I personally do not want one bad enough to pay the asking price. I think those who are upset just have expectations, set by the plain Lamy 2000, that the price be much lower.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

My biggest issue is this:

Lamy could have priced this the same as, or say 10% more than a black one and still made serious profit, and they could have sold tens of thousands. Just like they do with the Safaris every single year, (note that now they make Two or three colours per year, so there are even more to buy collect!...)

 

Instead they've chosen to go the "super exclusive" route. And that's the problem, they've actively chosen to artificially limit(this isn't a "we just can't make them any faster" kind of limit, this is a "this is all we want to/are going to make" limit, so it is artificial scarcity) the supply in order to justify a 200% price increase. If Lamy though they could get away with it, they would jack the price of the black 2000 to 400 or more. But they know they can't. It's too big of a jump and the market won't tolerate it. If this brown one it was 10% above normal costs, I'd have put my order in just about right away. 

 

I believe the medium/longish term strategy here is to raise the price of the black 2000.

Probably to $400, while raising the stainless to $600 or more. Why do I think this? Because if they HAD sold this brown pen at 10% above the usual price for a black one, and made/sold tens of thousands, then they likely would have made more profit (overall, and obviously not "per unit") than they will make the way they have chosen to go. Why/how do I think the intention is to raise the price of the black one? By creating a numbness to the price; The goal (I think) is to make it seem "ok" and "normal" to spend 6 or 700 on a 2000, I mean, after all, its a special colour! So if that becomes normal... then $400 on a plain black one is an absolute bargain isn't it!?...

 

Remember, this is the company that took their regular turquoise ink, changed the bottle cap and name and then released it as an LE (while still selling Turquoise...) But at least when asked about it, they seem to have not denied it. So it's not as unscrupulous as what Parker did with "super quink" ... but it's not a terribly honest looking move.

 

 

 

I predict that in less than 5 years from now the current black 2000 will either be eliminated and replaced with a "super limited ultra expensive" version every year, or it will have its price near, or at double the current price. Which is obviously far above what inflation would allow for.

 

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

4 minutes ago, sirgilbert357 said:

 I think those who are upset just have expectations, set by the plain Lamy 2000, that the price be much lower.

nailed it. because we KNOW they can and DO make a profit on the 2000 at it's current price.

Hell, grey market ones cost half as much as full retail in North America and they STILL make a profit!

 

And that's why it feels greedy to me. 

[silverlifter]

Apparently, Lamy is at least partially owned by its employees. If they want to screw wealthy dilettantes out of more coin to put money in the pockets of their staff, I say more power to them! 

 

[N1003U]

If this thread continues like this, I am going to have to make myself some popcorn. I can not remember being so amused by something so inanely trivial…😃 

 

Sometimes such exchanges are what this forum worth logging into.

[sirgilbert357]

1 hour ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

nailed it. because we KNOW they can and DO make a profit on the 2000 at it's current price.

Hell, grey market ones cost half as much as full retail in North America and they STILL make a profit!

 

And that's why it feels greedy to me. 

 

You do not know their profit margin on this brown pen. Period. Thus, you cannot call it greed if you cannot even quantify their margins.

 

You are just assuming something to fuel your emotional outrage. And again -- why do you get to decide how much profit a company is "allowed" to make? Who are you to put that subjective limit on a company whose financials you know literally NOTHING about?

 

What if their profit margins on this brown pen were EXACTLY the same as the regular L2K?? How would you feel then?

[sirgilbert357]

10 minutes ago, N1003U said:

If this thread continues like this, I am going to have to make myself some popcorn. I can not remember being so amused by something so inanely trivial…😃 

 

Sometimes such exchanges are what this forum worth logging into.

 

LOL, seriously.

 

Some people would absolutely lose their minds if they saw the mark up on most of their favorite things. Once I found credible information that the brand of jeans I wore cost just over a dollar to make. ONE BUCK. And I paid well over 40 times that...

[arcfide]

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned. Let's say that a company purposefully limits their profit margins for some "altruistic" reason (Tsubame does this, I think, from reading some interviews with them), what then? Well, if you have large margins, you also get a lot of freedom to *do* stuff. That capital allows you to do things like take more risks, try new things, and innovate. The less margin, the less freedom to be aggressive and try new things, and the slower you end up needing to respond to things. For example, Tsubame limits their profits, and this makes them among the most widely accessible and affordable notebooks in Japan and elsewhere with insanely good paper. They're a pretty crazy deal. But they also can't do much. They're exceptionally limited in what they can do. They have said that they struggle to manage the expansion efforts that are required to meet just demand itself for their existing products. Their machines are all very old, and there is a very real risk that if their machines died on them, they wouldn't be able to replace them. They can't grow very fast, and they haven't, compared to some other companies, despite being around for so long. They try stuff, but they are severely constrained based on their limits and the limits of their ability to invest. At least, that's how I read their interviews and the interpretations of their public statements. 

 

Compare that with other companies that have *much* higher margins and the like, but with similar back stories. Midori/Designphil is an example of a company that is producing at higher margins in the same arena and they are able to regular expand and try new things across the board, and arguably they are delivering a wider array of products that are more valuable and helpful to more people than Tsubame has been able to do. They even were able to document and release some of their experiments over time recently, showcasing some of the behind the scenes stuff they were doing. I doubt very seriously that Tsubame is able to afford trying that many ideas that failed to make it to market. 

 

My point? Higher profit margins does not equal more evil/exploitive, and in fact, might be a necessity in order to be of higher service to the customer. 

[sirgilbert357]

9 minutes ago, arcfide said:

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned. Let's say that a company purposefully limits their profit margins for some "altruistic" reason (Tsubame does this, I think, from reading some interviews with them), what then? Well, if you have large margins, you also get a lot of freedom to *do* stuff. That capital allows you to do things like take more risks, try new things, and innovate. The less margin, the less freedom to be aggressive and try new things, and the slower you end up needing to respond to things. For example, Tsubame limits their profits, and this makes them among the most widely accessible and affordable notebooks in Japan and elsewhere with insanely good paper. They're a pretty crazy deal. But they also can't do much. They're exceptionally limited in what they can do. They have said that they struggle to manage the expansion efforts that are required to meet just demand itself for their existing products. Their machines are all very old, and there is a very real risk that if their machines died on them, they wouldn't be able to replace them. They can't grow very fast, and they haven't, compared to some other companies, despite being around for so long. They try stuff, but they are severely constrained based on their limits and the limits of their ability to invest. At least, that's how I read their interviews and the interpretations of their public statements. 

 

Compare that with other companies that have *much* higher margins and the like, but with similar back stories. Midori/Designphil is an example of a company that is producing at higher margins in the same arena and they are able to regular expand and try new things across the board, and arguably they are delivering a wider array of products that are more valuable and helpful to more people than Tsubame has been able to do. They even were able to document and release some of their experiments over time recently, showcasing some of the behind the scenes stuff they were doing. I doubt very seriously that Tsubame is able to afford trying that many ideas that failed to make it to market. 

 

My point? Higher profit margins does not equal more evil/exploitive, and in fact, might be a necessity in order to be of higher service to the customer. 

 

Good points. The world makes pretty good use of the latest innovations from what I've seen. Tech, cars, energy, medicine, etc...

 

If Lamy ran on thin margins, we might never have seen more than 3 or 4 colors of Al-Stars, LOL.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

2 hours ago, sirgilbert357 said:

 

You do not know their profit margin on this brown pen. Period. Thus, you cannot call it greed if you cannot even quantify their margins.

 

You are just assuming something to fuel your emotional outrage. And again -- why do you get to decide how much profit a company is "allowed" to make? Who are you to put that subjective limit on a company whose financials you know literally NOTHING about?

 

What if their profit margins on this brown pen were EXACTLY the same as the regular L2K?? How would you feel then?

shocked that apparently they had found brown gold to colour the makrolon with.

 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 hour ago, arcfide said:

Here's something I haven't seen mentioned. Let's say that a company purposefully limits their profit margins for some "altruistic" reason (Tsubame does this, I think, from reading some interviews with them), what then? Well, if you have large margins, you also get a lot of freedom to *do* stuff. That capital allows you to do things like take more risks, try new things, and innovate. The less margin, the less freedom to be aggressive and try new things, and the slower you end up needing to respond to things. For example, Tsubame limits their profits, and this makes them among the most widely accessible and affordable notebooks in Japan and elsewhere with insanely good paper. They're a pretty crazy deal. But they also can't do much. They're exceptionally limited in what they can do. They have said that they struggle to manage the expansion efforts that are required to meet just demand itself for their existing products. Their machines are all very old, and there is a very real risk that if their machines died on them, they wouldn't be able to replace them. They can't grow very fast, and they haven't, compared to some other companies, despite being around for so long. They try stuff, but they are severely constrained based on their limits and the limits of their ability to invest. At least, that's how I read their interviews and the interpretations of their public statements. 

 

Compare that with other companies that have *much* higher margins and the like, but with similar back stories. Midori/Designphil is an example of a company that is producing at higher margins in the same arena and they are able to regular expand and try new things across the board, and arguably they are delivering a wider array of products that are more valuable and helpful to more people than Tsubame has been able to do. They even were able to document and release some of their experiments over time recently, showcasing some of the behind the scenes stuff they were doing. I doubt very seriously that Tsubame is able to afford trying that many ideas that failed to make it to market. 

 

My point? Higher profit margins does not equal more evil/exploitive, and in fact, might be a necessity in order to be of higher service to the customer. 

have at 'er

fill yer boots with your 700$ "200$" pen.

 

At this point, one of two things is happening

1) you guys honestly think paying too much is a good thing and will do anything to justify it

2) and the more likely one: you're all trolling me for comedic effect which I will no longer entertain you with

 

[peroride]

Wow this thread blew up. 🤯

 

Interesting that this new 55th Anniversary edition had some signals all the waay back over 3 years ago

 

From @arcfide great find/comment which includes the interview by the Goulet team in Dec 2017 with 

Head of Product Development/R&D Marco Achenbach at Lamy

 

It highlights some of the company's process and rationale for why they do what they do

 

If one cares to listen and pay attention, there are some interesting hints that bear strange coincidence to today...

 

Timestamp - note

• 1905 "My most popular information I have to share with everyone.... the DARK BROWN UMBRA best selling
• 1948 "year by year CHOCOLATE is number 1, this was important to find that out
• 2130 Lamy actually crunches numbers and field data, not just shoot off any color on a whim 
• 3015 variations on the Lamy 2000 ...
• 3037 "Technical restriction: colors can only be dark, dark blue, DARK BROWN!! (he actually says it aloud and years laters...?!) Why? metal dust of the section is brushed into the plastic (makralon).. if the color is too light you see black stain (aesthetics) Well there goes my Custom Chartreuse L2K for 120 Euro, cry me a river😭

I've added @arcfide catch again of that prescient video for convenience

 

[maclink]

2 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

you guys honestly think paying too much is a good thing and will do anything to justify it

‘Paying too much’ <for this LE L2K>- you imply an objective fact here, since this no longer seems the issue, but instead, whether or not it’s a good thing or justifiable. 

[Uncial]

6 hours ago, N1003U said:

If this thread continues like this, I am going to have to make myself some popcorn. I can not remember being so amused by something so inanely trivial…😃 

 

Sometimes such exchanges are what this forum worth logging into.

 

I mostly enjoy reading these peeing contest threads (so long as it isn't something I genuinely want to read about).

It's like watching an extended episode of 'The Secret Life of 3-Year-Olds' on Channel 4

 

[Intensity]

I'm simply amazed at the amount of effort going into lengthy posts here.  It's quite simple for some of us: the inherent value of the limited edition model is simply very lacking compared to its price.  I'm very used to scarcity and artificial (or inevitable) limited edition small-batch custom products reselling for huge amounts in my other hobbies, and there are plenty of people with deep pockets to literally rain money on such purchases, so the small collectors' markets thrive regardless.    Though it's also a pretty toxic environment to be at the top of the collection game, with some people raining money and others getting in debts just to keep up.

 

 But in this case we're not talking about a small-scale artisan or artist, limiting the number of produced units to one they can manage to make and sell while maintaining quality.   We're talking about a company that can obviously stamp out as many brown 2000s as they feel like--large numbers at lower MSRP.  There's little inherent value in this pen over the base model with the exception of it being made in a different color and in artificially limited quantity.  The ONLY way to justify the high price objectively (not sentimentally, simply because you want the pen regardless of the price) is to consider it an investment, something with a resale value.   A collector's piece.  Though starting out at nearly $600 via the official channels is already making the resale margins thinner, and those who want the pen will probably be able to order it without going through 3rd party resale channels, unless they weren't aware of the model when it was sold.  But thinking about it now, it'll probably be re-selling on reddit marketplace for $800-900 soon, once the vendor supply dries up.   People love making money on limited edition resales.  Honestly I just can't think of any other reason but considering it as a pen mostly for two categories of people:  1. people who have very high salaries and have low enough expenses to offset that,  1a. people who really don't have enough money but will probably save up and spend anyway impulsively, and 2.  people buying to resell later, because LEs are resale investments.   For those categories the price can be arbitrary-to-irrelevant.  

 

I personally do own more expensive MSRP pens.  I just personally don't feel like this pen is worth its price.  Sure I can buy it as a resale investment, but one can do that with any number of pens or other limited edition objects.  I have a steadily growing collection of LE Pilot VP Decimos and a bunch of LE Sailors, and some LE Pelikans.  But I just cannot justify this pen to myself.  Even though I'd like to own it, I cannot find enough value in this pen to pay 3x the price of the black Makrolon verion.

 

The reason I posted my opinion here is that I was simply shocked to see the price on this model.  It's far higher than expected.  I thought I would see some convincing arguments justifying the price to me, but I have not found any.   As far as I'm concerned, the price for the next edition could be set at $1000--why not?  Looking forward to reading that thread.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Intensity said:

I'm simply amazed at the amount of effort going into lengthy posts here.

 

Thinking things through, to the point of being able to articulate them, is part and parcel of any hobby of mine.

 

1 hour ago, Intensity said:

There's little inherent value in this pen over the base model with the exception of it being made in a different color and in artificially limited quantity.

 

But that final clause is not describing inherent or intrinsic value of a writing instrument or a product. Rarity in absolute numbers in existence, desirability in some other would-be acquirers' (or owners', or users') eyes, and the profit (or loss) one stands to make should one decide to sell it, in not inherent value of the thing, when the demand in the market could melt away for whatever reason outside of one's control, and Lamy could (and may) choose to release a non-LE release of a brown Lamy 2000 later that would be considered by some as a perfectly acceptable substitute, thus diluting the rarity and/or desirability of the 2021 LE, without physically damaging a unit of the latter to cause it to lose its inherent value.

 

1 hour ago, Intensity said:

The ONLY way to justify the high price objectively (not sentimentally,  …‹snip›… I thought I would see some convincing arguments justifying the price to me, but I have not found any.

 

I can't speak for others, and wouldn't want to do so anyway, but I do want to reiterate my focus (or foci) in this discussion. As fellow hobbyists and consumers, Lamy product owners and FPN forum members, and social peers and equals with other participants in this thread, I say nobody is entitled to having the price justified (by Lamy or one's fellows) to them, or explained to their satisfaction with a view to assuaging the disgruntlement or affront felt due the pricing. I'm not entitled to it, or in a position to reasonably demand an explanation that fits with my values framework, either; but I don't mind, and I say — exactly because ‘we’ are equals — that it sucks to be ‘you’ if you happen to mind (or even mind very much indeed).

 

There are millions of things that could be different and ‘better’ in this world, beyond our personal control or ‘rational’ (or ‘scientific’, or ‘reasonable’) understanding. I understand if people feel disappointed or aggrieved, but it's up to them to reconcile with those unpleasant emotions. Not in a million years would I want to give someone just like me more control over the marketplace or world around him; and, if I offer some sort of (hopefully fact-based) explanation, it is to help drive home why the situation is the way it is in a way he's in position to control or prevail.

 

I don't know about the other participants, but that's the conversation I'm having here. The 2021 LE Lamy 2000's asking prices is what they are; what's left for us to discuss is our personal view of the product (which you and I both said are not worth the premium, as a matter of personal opinion), not how to gain more power, influence or leverage to change Lamy's course with regard to limited edition offers, which I'm sure we'll all see ‘factually’ in due time.

 

In any case, were I of a mind to justify the 2021 LE's price to some would-be buyers (why, so I stand to benefit? how?), I'd be focusing on just convincing 3,000-odd individuals who are inclined to “rain money” on such things and declare themselves Lamy (or Lamy 2000) fans, anyway. How anyone else feels about being sidelined, neglected, excluded or missing out would be quite irrelevant to the success of this current campaign of Lamy's.

[maclink]

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

There's little inherent value in this pen over the base model with the exception of it being made in a different color and in artificially limited quantity.  The ONLY way to justify the high price objectively (not sentimentally, simply because you want the pen regardless of the price) is to consider it an investment, something with a resale value.   A collector's piece.

 

Isn't 'simply wanting the pen' enough?  Regardless of price --- hell no. 😁  There's always a limit ... for the vast majority of us anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

Honestly I just can't think of any other reason but considering it as a pen mostly for two categories of people:  1. people who have very high salaries and have low enough expenses to offset that,  1a. people who really don't have enough money but will probably save up and spend anyway impulsively, and 2.  people buying to resell later, because LEs are resale investments.   For those categories the price can be arbitrary-to-irrelevant.  

 

I do not fit any of those categories and yet, I got myself one.

 

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

I personally do own more expensive MSRP pens.

 

You do, do you?  Is it because you fit into one of those categories you mentioned above?

 

I'm not sure why you felt inclined to mention this.  Is it because you think it's a waste of money to purchase this new L2K version, but not one of the pens you purchased that has higher MSRP?  Since we all know that we have varying views on what we consider a waste of our own money, are you implying an absolute waste, i.e., a waste for anyone who chooses to purchase this pen?

 

Is a pen worth the MSRP when you think it so?  

 

 

2 hours ago, Intensity said:

I just personally don't feel like this pen is worth its price.

 

There are pens that are very popular, which I can afford, but which I haven't bought because, guess why, I am not prepared to pay the price for what I will get.  These are pens which may be quite cheap actually, or quite expensive as well.  I would give examples, but think it best not to, since it would likely lead to a digression.

 

There are three reasons discussed reasons why this LE L2k is expensive (probably four):

- it's released in a limited number and it has a special characteristic relative to the L2K's produced over the last 50-60yrs.  It's brown.  I love my L2K's.  They are among my favourite pens and I've always wanted a different colour.  I didn't realise I was willing to pay a lot for the opportunity until after I baulked at purchasing the Blue Bauhaus version.  I definitely had 'baulker's' remorse. 🙃

- The packaging is quite something once you have it in the hand and inspect it.  When I purchase a pen it's to get the pen and I've always disliked ostentatious packaging.  For this limited edition, I choose to make an exception.  If I could get a brown LE without the packaging, I think I would, but then I can't.  The notebook is great and it will be useful.  The reading material, I didn't have before and looks interesting.  I will definitely be reading them.

- R&D costs - highly debatable, I know, but not zero cost, by any stretch.

- The 4th is that Marco mentioned that chocolate is a colour that does really well with their pens.  I think a bit of premium was added there.  I can't help but think so.

 

Overall, I'm still happy that I got it.  Like you @Intensity, I have paid more for others of my pens, and am feeling, with this LE L2K,  more purchasing satisfaction than I have had with others among mine.  Ironically, a few are hugely popular (why I got them).  It's this latter contrasting experience that made me decide to get this LE L2k despite all the expressed negativity about its worth.  I am enjoying my new purchase.  It's currently inked with Iroshizuku Yama Guri.... a great match.  It will likely be frequently inked.  I don't plan to resell it.... none of my pens, to date, have been resold and I don't purchase pens with that intention.  Worth is a very personal thing in the end, especially if it's for one's own pleasure and not for resale purposes, showing off etc.

 

 

 

[A Smug Dill]

15 minutes ago, maclink said:

I am enjoying my new purchase.  It's currently inked with Iroshizuku Yama Guri.... a great match.  It will likely be frequently inked.

 

That sounds lovely! I'm sincerely happy that you're enjoying your new pen. Just because I'm personally not prepared to pay the asking price for one of its kin, it doesn't follow that I wouldn't want others who are to get commensurate gratification (and more) from theirs, on the fear that it may embolden Lamy and/or somehow contribute (in no small part, but only in sheer fantasy) to a trend of increased prices of desirable variants of this and that model dressed as ‘limited editions’, over which I have in fact no control one way or another.

[sirgilbert357]

7 hours ago, Intensity said:

I'm simply amazed at the amount of effort going into lengthy posts here.  It's quite simple for some of us: the inherent value of the limited edition model is simply very lacking compared to its price.  I'm very used to scarcity and artificial (or inevitable) limited edition small-batch custom products reselling for huge amounts in my other hobbies, and there are plenty of people with deep pockets to literally rain money on such purchases, so the small collectors' markets thrive regardless.    Though it's also a pretty toxic environment to be at the top of the collection game, with some people raining money and others getting in debts just to keep up.

 

 But in this case we're not talking about a small-scale artisan or artist, limiting the number of produced units to one they can manage to make and sell while maintaining quality.   We're talking about a company that can obviously stamp out as many brown 2000s as they feel like--large numbers at lower MSRP.  There's little inherent value in this pen over the base model with the exception of it being made in a different color and in artificially limited quantity.  The ONLY way to justify the high price objectively (not sentimentally, simply because you want the pen regardless of the price) is to consider it an investment, something with a resale value.   A collector's piece.  Though starting out at nearly $600 via the official channels is already making the resale margins thinner, and those who want the pen will probably be able to order it without going through 3rd party resale channels, unless they weren't aware of the model when it was sold.  But thinking about it now, it'll probably be re-selling on reddit marketplace for $800-900 soon, once the vendor supply dries up.   People love making money on limited edition resales.  Honestly I just can't think of any other reason but considering it as a pen mostly for two categories of people:  1. people who have very high salaries and have low enough expenses to offset that,  1a. people who really don't have enough money but will probably save up and spend anyway impulsively, and 2.  people buying to resell later, because LEs are resale investments.   For those categories the price can be arbitrary-to-irrelevant.  

 

I personally do own more expensive MSRP pens.  I just personally don't feel like this pen is worth its price.  Sure I can buy it as a resale investment, but one can do that with any number of pens or other limited edition objects.  I have a steadily growing collection of LE Pilot VP Decimos and a bunch of LE Sailors, and some LE Pelikans.  But I just cannot justify this pen to myself.  Even though I'd like to own it, I cannot find enough value in this pen to pay 3x the price of the black Makrolon verion.

 

The reason I posted my opinion here is that I was simply shocked to see the price on this model.  It's far higher than expected.  I thought I would see some convincing arguments justifying the price to me, but I have not found any.   As far as I'm concerned, the price for the next edition could be set at $1000--why not?  Looking forward to reading that thread.

 

What's the price on a regular Pilot VP? Like 156 bucks?

Pilot VP Raden I saw on Goulet: 800 bucks.

 

Not worth it to me, but I'm also not making a big issue out of how greedy Pilot was with that one.

 

This brown L2K is no different. Was there a big outcry each time Pilot launched another Raden finished VP? 

[Intensity]

The VP Raden price is even higher in USA than it is in the Japanese home market, so I would take that under consideration.  I think it was raised from $640 at some point not terribly long ago, which would be Pilot's USA distributor's decision.  Also the raden / urushi do cost more than just different color of plastic and PVD.  But I agree that those pens are far overpriced at MSRP in the USA market.  For example, Yoseka Stationery (a USA vendor) is selling it for $640, and that's already at a markup over the domestic Japanese price.   It's $475 at Pensachi, which I would imagine is also at a markup from the domestic market.

 

There's one important distinction, however: they are not limited editions.  So it is possible to get one on the used market for $400 or under sometimes, and people are not hoarding the VP Raden pens for later resale at high markup.  This will not be the case for the brown Lamy 2000.