Sellers and flexmania

[Aether]

4 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Aether,

I can understand your confusion, in you are only getting fragments of my flex rating system.

It is subjunctive, but is close enough for horseshoes.

If you want, I can restate it. Or with more reading you will stumble over it.

 

Not confused at all.  I are a very regular user of dip pens - in both straight and oblique holders - for calligraphics.  So I consider me quite understanding of flex in a pen.  also have used many vintage flex nibs with varying degrees of flexibility, but never needed a descriptive system.  The point is your system is divorced from the reality of writing in practice.    In the beginning days of fountain pens when flexible pens may have been more common, there was not this angst over just how much flex could be achieved.  No need to introduce it now in my opinion.  

 

read through the last few responses and note that not everyone is permitted an opinion, only certain people.  Shameful.

[Bo Bo Olson]

7 minutes ago, Aether said:

Sure, please point me in the direction of a reputable seller of vintage flexible nibs who employs this descriptive system?   I'll wait.

Marcio, uses his own system...................talking about superflex only, he don't agree with my simple system that is more helpfull for noobies, than someone with a hell of a lot of superflex experience.

How ever, what do you mean by flexible nibs?

 

 

Reputable seller.....You want to buy a pen from me?????

 

"""The point is your system is divorced from the reality of writing in practice. """

 

You know you are right.....a medium dip pen, say a Soennecken makes a Week Kneed Wet Noodle, a description from John Sowoboda(sp) the English nib grinder. look stiff kneed.....and tht Soennecken is not even a Hunt 99-100-101.

 

You can say what you want, lots of people do......

Have you ever read my full description of my system, that you as a dip pen expert puts down?

 

[Aether]

I don't know this marcio fellow, yet you imply he knows about flexible nibs but doesn't use your system.  Hardly supporting evidence. 

 

What do I mean by flexible nibs?  I compare vintage fountian pen nibs with the dip pens I am very familiar with.  They are the gold standard for flexibility. 

 

I don't know you either, so no I don't want to buy a pen from you. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have a nice nail to sell you.....if you wish you can make it flexible the regular way.

 

Odd that such an expert should pop up here and not have been here for the 12 years I have been. Not even with 35 posts over in the writing section.

So think you are having a Troll problem. Good by.

[Aether]

Not claiming to an expert in anything just an experienced user of dip pens.   If your system was worthwhile then sellers would use it.  Surely they want their customers to know what they am buying? Perhaps they don't, then perhaps they want people to be unaware so they can't be held responsible? Who knows. 

[maclink]

14 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

The 400/600 are semi-nails,

I recently bought a 405 Streisamann with a nib that's softer than my 200 nibs.  Yes, I was surprised especially with the repetitive claim that the nibs are semi-nails which they may well have been.  I've said this before.  We know the Pelikan nibs change now and again.  Is there yet another change in their nibs of which you are unaware @Bo Bo Olson ? 

[Aether]

31 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I have a nice nail to sell you.....if you wish you can make it flexible the regular way.

 

Odd that such an expert should pop up here and not have been here for the 12 years I have been. Not even with 35 posts over in the writing section.

So think you are having a Troll problem. Good by.

 

This how you treat all new members? that just as you haven't seen them until now they must be suspicious?

 

Edit: English is not my own first language - a work in progress.  I maybe not select the exact words to mean what i mean.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Aether
additional infomation

[Bo Bo Olson]

Does it when mashed have a tine spread that goes 3 X a light down stroke?

If so it's regular flex.....which does surprise me.

Or does it only go 2 X when mashed?

 

Do compair both, mashing the 400 only as much as you mashed the 200 to get 3 X tine spread. So you are using the same pressure.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

I think nail and flex nibs have uses. 

 

I remember in one thread I posted in which a member was inquiring the difference between Pilot,Sailor, and another pen company. I shared my experience in preferring Sailor for my uses (mathematics). A member had a snarky comment about any pen could be used for mathematics, biology,chemistry etc. I decided not respond, since it was a waste of arguing with a person over the net who was ignorant in such matters.

 

Anyhow, I prefer "nail nibs" for my uses. I own a few pens that are flex (semi-flex/regular flex, with 1 super flex). They receive no use, unless my niece wants to use them for drawing. I plan to gift them to her for Christmas this year.

 

As mentioned, my uses are Mathematics. Euclidean Geometry (that found in Euclid), and not the geometry using Playfair's Axiom. Non-Euclidean Geometry(Hyperbolic and Spherical Geometry). Also Topology (low dimensional topology). So a flex nib is not ideal in this situation, since one needs to make consistent lines aided with the use of compass and straightedge. A flex nib would result in inconsistent diagrams. Moreover, I was able to rig up a compass which uses a sailor pen to make arcs, instead of a pencil.

 

I can also see Engineers needing a more rigid nib for possible diagrams they would make. Although I am not an Engineer, I can not speak with 100 percent certainty. I believe mostly CAD or a similar program is used now. But I know an architect that still does his initial schematics by hand.

 

Both nibs have pros and cons...

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I just never get around to inking my nails.

 

But have no arguments to those who like them, when like you they have at least fully tested semi-flex....as a flair nib, not as a calligraphy nib. Which it isn't, which was where this thread started. Nib Abuse.

 

I have no trouble scribbling along just as fast with a semi-flex as a regular flex or even a nail. But my Hand lightened up a hell of a lot from when I got my first semi-flex a 140 OB and was maxing it out to 3X  for the first six weeks....and perhaps out to 2 X more than needed for six week later.

Line variation On Demand, requires a light enough Hand to Demand it, when one wishes.

And not writing hard and thick, with heavy hands. Coming from semi-nail and nail, I was indeed Ham Fisted.

[OMASsimo]

14 minutes ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

I think nail and flex nibs have uses. 

 

I remember in one thread I posted in which a member was inquiring the difference between Pilot,Sailor, and another pen company. I shared my experience in preferring Sailor for my uses (mathematics). A member had a snarky comment about any pen could be used for mathematics, biology,chemistry etc. I decided not respond, since it was a waste of arguing with a person over the net who was ignorant in such matters.

 

Anyhow, I prefer "nail nibs" for my uses. I own a few pens that are flex (semi-flex/regular flex, with 1 super flex). They receive no use, unless my niece wants to use them for drawing. I plan to gift them to her for Christmas this year.

 

As mentioned, my uses are Mathematics. Euclidean Geometry (that found in Euclid), and not the geometry using Playfair's Axiom. Non-Euclidean Geometry(Hyperbolic and Spherical Geometry). Also Topology (low dimensional topology). So a flex nib is not ideal in this situation, since one needs to make consistent lines aided with the use of compass and straightedge. A flex nib would result in inconsistent diagrams. Moreover, I was able to rig up a compass which uses a sailor pen to make arcs, instead of a pencil.

 

I can also see Engineers needing a more rigid nib for possible diagrams they would make. Although I am not an Engineer, I can not speak with 100 percent certainty. I believe mostly CAD or a similar program is used now. But I know an architect that still does his initial schematics by hand.

 

Both nibs have pros and cons...

 

I think you made an interesting point here that there might be situations where a steady line width definitely is of advantage.  And many prefer a stiff nib for writing anyway. I’m writing a lot of math equations myself, though in a different field (relativistic quantum mechanics). Other than for regular writing, I prefer fairly fine nibs for this to keep the zillions of indices legible. I’m so used to the more flexible vintage nibs, though, that I have no problem with using them for the purpose. But I can see quite easily that a stiffer fine nib might be easier to handle. And in fact, I just received an OMAS pen from the 90s with a fairly ridgid EF nib that is perfect for the job. I will use it along with my way more flexible fine nibs in my Pelikan 100Ns and OMAS Extras from the 40s and 50s. 

[maclink]

31 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Does it when mashed have a tine spread that goes 3 X a light down stroke?

If so it's regular flex.....which does surprise me.

Or does it only go 2 X when mashed?

 

Do compair both, mashing the 400 only as much as you mashed the 200 to get 3 X tine spread. So you are using the same pressure.

 

I haven't made such measurements and don't know what you mean by 'mash' or a 'light' downstroke.  That varies from hand to hand, doesn't it?

 

Anyway, I am saying just one thing only..... my recently purchased M405's nib is softer than my M200/5's.  I definitely wouldn't call the M405's nib in my possession a nail by any stretch.  I have too many nails to compare.  OTOH, I do have an M600 with a nib that is more along the nail variety as you describe.  I don't know what Pelikan are up to.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Make a light down stroke, ... just run the nib down as light as you can and get a per width  ink line. Then Press the 200 until the nib is spread to 3 x . That is mashed.

 

There you have a basis to how hard a nib could be spread as a regular flex. It's not something you do all the time, just when you get the pen to see what the nib will do or is.

 

 Then using the exact same pressure with your 400, see if the nib's tines spread 2 or 3 X.

 

 

 

An American Parker P-75 is a semi-nail; my 605 is one also.

 

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The new Lamy Imporium, has the softest most springy 2 X nib I've ever tried. If it did 3 X tine spread, I would call it would be semi-flex IMO.

It is not a semi-nail which has to do with less tine spread to pressure...........nor is it regular flex in it don't go 3 X....bit it's a hell of a nib, and does give line variation.

To expensive for my pocket.....and the nib won't fit my old Persona. or I'd see about getting it.

 

[bunnspecial]

2 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

I remember in one thread I posted in which a member was inquiring the difference between Pilot,Sailor, and another pen company. I shared my experience in preferring Sailor for my uses (mathematics). A member had a snarky comment about any pen could be used for mathematics, biology,chemistry etc. I decided not respond, since it was a waste of arguing with a person over the net who was ignorant in such matters.

 

I'm a Chemist, and there are times where-if I were more competent with making use of flex-I could use it to some benefit.

 

Not that these are great, but here's a wedge and dash representation of Methane, with the wedges drawn top left using the "usual" technique of just shading a triangle with multiple strokes, and the other two attempting to use a flex nib.

 

TBH, I'm not sure where this particular nib would fall in Bo Bo's classification. It's a Montblanc 3-42G. I'd classify it as roughly F-BB, but takes a moderate amount of pressure to get there. I have an MB 142 "KF" that writes as a B if I'm not consciously using less than my normal writing pressure(which I feel is light after using FPs as my primary writing tool for 10 years, and a lot of that my main pen being a Pelikan M205 with a nicely springy F that I used to get a bit of flair on things like T cross strokes) and will flex out to probably a 3B. I think that one would class as a wet noodle, and I'm almost afraid to use it even though it's a lovely nib. Of the same general age as these two pens I have a 144 OB that will flex out to maybe a BB width.

 

With all of that said, even though lately I've been mostly using stiffer Bs and OBs for my writing, I find a fine nail, or a fine with a bit of flex(something like my MB 14, which will spread out to about a medium with a nice bit of "springness") can match me a lot better for math. I've been teaching the past few weeks from a document camera, and I bounce back and forth between Bs, Ms, and Fs-my math/equations are most legible with an F, the students can see easiest on the doc camera with a B or BB, and an M might be the overall best compromise for that.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

25 minutes ago, bunnspecial said:

Pelikan M205 with a nicely springy F that I used to get a bit of flair on things like T cross strokes) and will flex out to probably a 3B.

That's 4 X. Do you have to use a lot of pressure to reach that?

 

I always advise one read Richard Binder's article on metal fatigue. I'm especially carefully with my superflex nibs, striving to stay one width under max.

 

 

27 minutes ago, bunnspecial said:

I have an MB 142 "KF" that writes as a B

F-M-B is three X, from when is the 142?

Regular flex, semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex are 3x nibs, it depends on how much pressure is needed to get to 3 X.

 

More than likely I can push a maxi from F to BB, but how many times before metal fatigue springs the nib?

 

I have three vintage '50's MB's, a 234 1/2 KOB in semi-flex, a rolled gold 742, with for me, my only in between semi and maxi nib, and a great balanced medium-long maxi-semi-flex.

It's the easiest tine spread of my 35 semi-flex.....or the hardest of my 15 if counting that as a maxi.

I really like my '50-60's medium-long great balanced 146, with a maxi nib.

 

The other 3 MBs two '70-80s Large 146's a stubbed BB and a @ an F, and the 149 ('88-92 or so) (would have to eyeball it I've not inked yet to how wide it is...seems F off the top of my head)  are all regular flex.

So is my wide B Virginia Woolf.

[bunnspecial]

Sorry, somehow or another I mixed things up. The M205 I mentioned(modern) will only go to maybe a wide M or skinny B. In writing, I only take it out about a half size typically, to maybe skinny M.

 

The 142 is the "F" that flexes to B with almost no pressure and 3B with moderate pressure. I imagine it would go further, I've just never dared or wanted to try. 3B takes about the same amount of pressure that flexing the M205 I mentioned above needs to go F-B. I don't have a date on the 142 other than my best guess of a general 1950s. It's celluloid with a telescopic piston.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Semi or maxi-semi-flex. I think the latter.

Great.

 

The only pens that I know of that you have more of a chance to get a maxi than a semi is the Supra nibbed Osmia.

 

With my whole 8, I'd 'stated', that Supra were maxi's.. be it gold or steel...how ever some fine poster with 60 Osmia/Osmia-Faber-Castel and Omassimo, said they have Supra nibs that are just semi-flex and the small diamond Osmia nibs that I thought as all semi-flex in maxi.....so that is a good maybe only, instead of always true.

The Osmia steel nib is as great as their gold ones. I was a fool gold snob back then.....could have gotten a couple more steel nibbed Osmia's in they ran E10-20 less, and then like now E10-20 is a big bit of change. If the Osmia has a steel nib; it is a great steel nib. That is no guess....... 

 

Degussa took Osmia's nib factory for debt in 1932. Degussa is the gold producer for Germany. They continued making Osmia's nibs, in both semi & Maxi. (Lateer their own brand. And as nooble...believing that In House BS so much, I almost tossed both a Bock and Degussa nib...in I believed BS. Thankfully the nibs didn't take up much space. I was so new I didn't even know what semi-flex was, and both were.

 

My guess is if some of the companies, Pelikan, or MB perhaps Soennecken ordered a gold ribbon wheel, sometimes they would get the maxi alloy.....in what ribbon wheel was grabbed first in the warehouse.

 

I guess 1 in 5 of my German nibs of that era, were maxi and none of the other companies marked the nibs, if they noticed, they were more flexible than their normal semi-flex nibs.

 

As I mentioned the two MB nibs with a bit more flex than semi-flex, one was Maxi. I have a gold Geha EF maxi, and Degussa made the Geha nibs.....later also Soennecken as Soennecken went under.

 

Not that it has to do with maxi, but two posters I respect stated that the Geha nibs in their 790-760 pens were a slight bit more flexible than Pelikan. Having 4 of those Geha of that era and the like amount of Pelikans including then a maxi, I fount it to be true, in both semi & maxi.

 

[TitoThePencilPimp]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:57 AM, OMASsimo said:

I think you made an interesting point here that there might be situations where a steady line width definitely is of advantage.  And many prefer a stiff nib for writing anyway. I’m writing a lot of math equations myself, though in a different field (relativistic quantum mechanics). Other than for regular writing, I prefer fairly fine nibs for this to keep the zillions of indices legible. I’m so used to the more flexible vintage nibs, though, that I have no problem with using them for the purpose. But I can see quite easily that a stiffer fine nib might be easier to handle. And in fact, I just received an OMAS pen from the 90s with a fairly ridgid EF nib that is perfect for the job. I will use it along with my way more flexible fine nibs in my Pelikan 100Ns and OMAS Extras from the 40s and 50s. 

Interesting. Hope the study of relativistic quantum mechanics is going great for you. I majored in Pure Math (recent BS). However, I study physics when time permits. Recently I finished Griffiths QM intro book. I have a copy of Sakurai on my shelf that I hope to start reading around December. Maybe in two years I can read an intro book on RQM. 

 

Any books or articles you would recommend?

[OMASsimo]

14 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Interesting. Hope the study of relativistic quantum mechanics is going great for you. I majored in Pure Math (recent BS). However, I study physics when time permits. Recently I finished Griffiths QM intro book. I have a copy of Sakurai on my shelf that I hope to start reading around December. Maybe in two years I can read an intro book on RQM. 

 

Any books or articles you would recommend?

 

Wow, I thinks that's the farthest I ever strayed off-topic here in this forum. Our crazy little pen world is amazing.

 

I'm at a chemistry faculty and we study relativistic effects on the quantum dynamics of molecules containing heavy elements. So, my research is more in theoretical chemistry than theoretical physics. I develop approximation methods with my group for efficient numerical treatments of such problems. A good introductory book related to my field is Kenneth G. Dyall and Knut Faegri, "Introduction to Relativistic Quantum Chemistry".

 

Have fun reading (or rather working through) the Sakurai, it's a great book! The last chapter is on RQM if I'm not mistaken.

[sansenri]

On 4/13/2021 at 3:00 AM, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Its not just the pricing of "flex nibs" or people deceiving people into believing a particular nib is semi-flex. It is also sellers making bids on their own items. I believe Martini Auctions does this a lot on eBay...

Just curious on your statement, what clues do you have that Martini does this on their ebay auctions?