Pelikan 100 nib

[OMASsimo]

48 minutes ago, stoen said:

As far as I’ve learned here, Kaweco might have also been responsible for part of the Pelikan 100 outsourced nibs production between 1930 and 1934. Does anyone know how well did Kaweco fare in the thirties as compared to Pelikan in Germany and internationally?

 

 

Kaweco was one of the big players before and after the war and I guess that they played in the league of MB and Soennecken size wise (I stress that I guess because I have no reference at hand right now). Kaweco started pen production way before Pelikan and was already more established in the market. Like MB, Soennecken, and Pelikan, they sold general office supplies besides pens, which distinguished them from Osmia. All of them were well-known premium brands in the 1930s in Germany and more or less played in a similar price range with MB offering the most expensive luxury pens. Osmia and probably Soennecken were also pretty expensive compared to Kaweco and Pelikan. Osmia was swallowed by Faber-Castell, Kaweco died in the early 80s, and Soennecken stopped making quality fountain pens some time in the 60s iirc, so these companies seem to have eluded the memory of many fp users.  Of course, the Kaweco brand name was revived by Gutberlet by now, trying to revive the old models. Because MB and Pelikan survived till now and do a lot of marketing, many of us are more aware of them than of the countless other makers playing the market till say the 1960s.

 

I think that Kaweco also played a role on the European market having shops and dependencies in several countries. I might have to check the Kaweco book to make sure about that, though. Pelikan had a great product and thus grew rapidly on the fp market, also expanding to Europe.

 

There were countless other manufacturers playing in this league but being less known. One that is well-known but usually not related to the 1930s is Lamy! Lamy was founded out of Osmia, I think in 1932, and played in the same price range. This price reflected the quality of the pens and if you ever had a cheap no-name pen from pre-war in your hands, you probably know what I mean. You could buy a pen for a fraction of what you had to spend for any pen of the mentioned brands and I guess that very many did. But you got what you payed for and most of those pens went onto the trash rather than being sold on flea markets, vintage stores, or now on ebay. A good pen was an expensive investment those days.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Osmia sold it's self to Parker in @ 1928-9. Lamy was the General Manager. Parker couldn't sell it's over expensive Duofold in Germany....also there were very many Duofold clones already on the market. So in 1929/30 Parker sold Osmia back to the Boehler brothers, having gotten a technology transfer. I don't know if that was before or just after the Market Crash of '29.

But up to just after the Crash, Kaweco made the best nibs in Germany, or perhaps the world. Having used US Morton nibs from 1900 to 1914; when they bought machines and American trainers from Morton. Those were the greatest nibs, with lots of extra hand worked steps. The new management in 1930 stopped the extra steps; so Kaweco nibs became the same level as Soennecken and MB.

 

[stoen]

Here is a picture of the nibs in some of my Pelikan 100 pens I’ve identified as pre-war. I also have some more detailed datings, but for the moment I won’t disclose them. I also cropped the sections from the picture so they don’t influence the overall impression. I’m interested in your opinions and possible clues on the dating of those nibs. Which of those appear “outsourced”?

Hope the picture is sharp enough. 

Thanks.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I wouldn't be able to tell, stamping machines would have been similar. Die and tool makers skilled; slap stick engineers well trained.

Sizes of nibs near standard 1 to 8-9. Plus - minus. So tooling would as a matter of course make a nib that would fit its feed.

In feeds were cut by hand and with adequate machinery to match that companies nib and feed to it's pens; with a bit of jiggling.....if necessary the machinist could fit it to a slightly different width and depth.

 

Just thought why should Pelikan insist on making their very own standard, as noobie, when MB had been making nibs and feeds since 1912, Kawaco 1914 (not counting using Morton nibs since 1900, or Soennecken who made lots of dip pen nibs, so wouldn't be uppity about making gold nibs and feeds for money. 

So is the nib and feed of Pelikans an exact match of MB or is it different enough that an other company could have made it.

Then comes the thought, with competent machinists the section could be drilled to fit any nib and feed....from what ever company.  

There was a time when and still is in some companies where a skilled worker is a master of his craft and do fiddly work as a matter of course.  

 

Nib widths would be where one could tell, except the tool maker could do the job paid for and make it the width with in tolerance and tolerance is a big word.

 

As far as I can tell only one of your nibs is width marked. I don't know enough of when or which companies started stamp marking their nibs, instead of pen bodies.

 

Ron visited Shaffer as it shut down. They had a gauge they shoved the nib into and then tossed it into the proper box, a skinny M=exactly a fat F.

So Pelikan would be using other companies sizes, EF-F-M and B.

IMO customers wouldn't be as OCD as we are today. Real skinny, skinny, medium, broad and real wide. Not my real skinny is skinnier than yours.

 

I don't know if there was the Big Difference in nib width in Germany, like fat Parker and skinny Shaffer training their customers, to prefer a fat or a skinny nib. Basic wide or narrow nib widths did keep a customer from making a catastrophic mistake, of a Parker fan, buying a Shaffer; in it would be 10 years before Parker could get another shot at him, and he'd become use to using a skinny nib.

[OMASsimo]

4 hours ago, stoen said:

Here is a picture of the nibs in some of my Pelikan 100 pens I’ve identified as pre-war. I also have some more detailed datings, but for the moment I won’t disclose them. I also cropped the sections from the picture so they don’t influence the overall impression. I’m interested in your opinions and possible clues on the dating of those nibs. Which of those appear “outsourced”?

Hope the picture is sharp enough. 

Thanks.

This is a great idea. But could you make some photos that show the imprint more clearly? After all, we are discussing some very fine details.

[stoen]

OK. But this will be a larger picture. I’m not really fond of uploading heavy files I’m not a professional pen trader, so I don’t have gear to take a good photo. Only a cellphone. Not an easy task photographing 6 nibs next to one another... Here they are:

[OMASsimo]

Thanks a lot for your efforts. Yes, it’s a pain to get reasonable pictures of nibs. A cell phone is not the worst to take close-ups but more important is the lighting. You did a good job!

 

Now, the first three from the left seem to be early versions dating from maybe 1930-37. In 1937 it seems that the “585” was added. I tried to find out if there was any new regulation on that and I kind of think so. Unfortunately, I didn’t find any useful, reliable info on that. The imprint on the very left nib is the closest to the heart hole nibs. Could be that it still was produced by MB or another nib manufacturer.

 

I have two very similar nibs:

 

 

 

The above one has an additional “K” imprint that could maybe designate a “Kugelspitze” tip and it actually looks like one. The other interesting thing is that there is dot after “KARAT.”

 

 

This second one shows the same kind of imprint but has no designation of the tipping. There’s also no mark on the feed or the piston knob for that matter. If anyone has additional info on those nibs, that would be fantastic.

o

[stoen]

Thanks for your feedback info and the nib photos. In fact, I found much easier lightingwise taking a picture of a single nib, still it’s a time consuming task, setting proper lignting and shooting angle nevertheless.

I found Pelikan having been rather inconsistent in marking the tip grade on the nib itself during its first two or three years of production.

 

The designation on the feed or piston joint is post 1934, I believe.

 

Are you sure the dot after the KARAT can be positively identified as part of te script, not some kind of customs sign? Does the dot embossing have the same texture as the letters?

 

The nibs you’ve posted seem to belong to the same category as the leftmost one in my picture. My pen which it belongs to has been identified as of 1931.

 

I would consider the nibs you’ve posted as (1930-1931), 1932 at latest, the script is same as in “hearthole” nibs, possibly also MB made.

 

Here’s an individual pic of this nib

 

 

and the pen it belongs to:

 

 

🙂

[OMASsimo]

21 hours ago, stoen said:

Thanks for your feedback info and the nib photos. In fact, I found much easier lightingwise taking a picture of a single nib, still it’s a time consuming task, setting proper lignting and shooting angle nevertheless.

I found Pelikan having been rather inconsistent in marking the tip grade on the nib itself during its first two or three years of production.

 

The designation on the feed or piston joint is post 1934, I believe.

 

Are you sure the dot after the KARAT can be positively identified as part of te script, not some kind of customs sign? Does the dot embossing have the same texture as the letters?

 

The nibs you’ve posted seem to belong to the same category as the leftmost one in my picture. My pen which it belongs to has been identified as of 1931.

 

I would consider the nibs you’ve posted as (1930-1931), 1932 at latest, the script is same as in “hearthole” nibs, possibly also MB made.

 

Here’s an individual pic of this nib

 

 

and the pen it belongs to:

 

 

🙂

These are excellent pictures indeed and what a stunningly beautiful pen! The dot in “KARAT.” Most certainly is part of the script and is present on both of my nibs. It would be too small for a customs mark like required in France (which by the way would require 18k).

 

I don’t know on which base your pen was dated. I usually check  Pelikan-collectibles.com for serious info (https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Models/Historic-Pens/100/index.html). According to that, the conical cap top was introduced in 1931 but the tapered nib section was introduced in 1933. Another indicator is the logo on the cap top. I can’t see it in your picture but it’s claimed that the old four chick logo was changed to the modern two chick logo in 1937. Your piston knob appears to be slick like in later versions. Unfortunately, I found no data on the version history of knurled vs. slick piston knobs. 
 

Based on the above, I would date my pen to around 1937 because it has the new logo, tapered section, smells strongly like celluloid, has a knurled piston nob. But certain details are inconsistent, like no air holes in the cap. The nib unit could have been replaced like in the second pen, which dates rather clearly to 1942-44. I’m afraid that the data base is so thin and production was not that consistent, that dating those early Pelikans more precisely is extremely difficult.

 

I add a picture where I marked the differences in the embossing of our nibs. My nibs also differ in the horizontal line of the “4”.

 

 

[stoen]

Thanks for your elaborate comment,  @OMASsimo. It deserves a more elaborate reply.

 

Do your nibs feature the dots on both sides of the KARAT word?

 

Quote

“I don’t know on which base your pen was dated...”

As for my pen, it’s been dated on all publicly available bases (including “Pelikan collectibles”) + individual research. For the sake of backing my statement with arguments I post few more photos herewith:

Sure, its captop has a four-chick logo, it’s understood, and the captube has four holes, which can be clearly seen in the big photo. Its section is also straight (concave), non-tapered, pre-1933, as seen in the big photo, and the barrel is brass-ring reinforced.

Quote

“Your piston knob appears to be slick like in later versions...”

Not so. The pen’s knurled ebonite piston-knob is rather worn-out, polished and out-of-focus in the big picture. Here’s the detail:

 

I believe the mentioned slick piston knobs must have been introduced coincidently with wartime material and engineering changes, in two steps:

• celluloid, as of 1940, pattern-knurled (knurls-slick cylindrically repetitive patrern) surface
• acrylic, as of 1942, completely slick surface

One can conclude this from the “Pelikan 100 Timeline” in “Pelikan Collectibles” pages, and by having seen a number of pens whose appearance matches this description.

 

My pen’s cardboard box and its usage instructions also match. This pen once belonged to my family estate. This all dates the pen rather unambigously to the second half of 1931.

 

As for the nib embossing, thanks for annotating the “curious” details. Good point in some further research!

🙂

 

As for your pen, its original ebonite cap tube, possibly once broken, may have been service-replaced for a newer celluloid or acrylic tube at some point.

 

As for your second pen, it might have been that someone salvaged a good nib unit from a broken pre-1937 pen and installed it in a later CN nibbed model.

 

I believe simpler answers are likely to be more probable. Of course statistics canot tell much about a single pen’s history, yet it can give an air about it.

🙂

 

Thanks for reading this. Hope it can help...

[OMASsimo]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:44 PM, stoen said:

Thanks for your elaborate comment,  @OMASsimo. It deserves a more elaborate reply.

 

Do your nibs feature the dots on both sides of the KARAT word?

 

As for my pen, it’s been dated on all publicly available bases (including “Pelikan collectibles”) + individual research. For the sake of backing my statement with arguments I post few more photos herewith:

Sure, its captop has a four-chick logo, it’s understood, and the captube has four holes, which can be clearly seen in the big photo. Its section is also straight (concave), non-tapered, pre-1933, as seen in the big photo, and the barrel is brass-ring reinforced.

Not so. The pen’s knurled ebonite piston-knob is rather worn-out, polished and out-of-focus in the big picture. Here’s the detail:

 

I believe the mentioned slick piston knobs must have been introduced coincidently with wartime material and engineering changes, in two steps:

• celluloid, as of 1940, pattern-knurled (knurls-slick cylindrically repetitive patrern) surface
• acrylic, as of 1942, completely slick surface

One can conclude this from the “Pelikan 100 Timeline” in “Pelikan Collectibles” pages, and by having seen a number of pens whose appearance matches this description.

 

My pen’s cardboard box and its usage instructions also match. This pen once belonged to my family estate. This all dates the pen rather unambigously to the second half of 1931.

 

As for the nib embossing, thanks for annotating the “curious” details. Good point in some further research!

🙂

 

As for your pen, its original ebonite cap tube, possibly once broken, may have been service-replaced for a newer celluloid or acrylic tube at some point.

 

As for your second pen, it might have been that someone salvaged a good nib unit from a broken pre-1937 pen and installed it in a later CN nibbed model.

 

I believe simpler answers are likely to be more probable. Of course statistics canot tell much about a single pen’s history, yet it can give an air about it.

🙂

 

Thanks for reading this. Hope it can help...

 

Thanks a lot for taking the time for presenting such detailed additional info. This is indeed very valuable, especially the excellent pictures. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting the dating of your pen but I'm trying to learn from it and also compare it with freely available info. I think that your pen and it's history is a stroke of luck because you have original first hand information and it never left your family. This is a rare thing and extremely valuable.

 

I stumbled over your piston knob because it looked slick in your first photo of the pen but now it's clear. And I didn't look careful enough at your section due to lack of experience. Now I see clearly what the difference is, which helps me a lot! So, thank you very much.

 

Now, to answer your question: The dot is only found after the "T" on the right side, so it really reads "KARAT." I think that it looks very similar to a nib that tacitus shows in his thread on Dating Pelikan Fountain Pen in a 1931 pen.

 

I composed a new picture in which I mark the differences in my two nibs:

 

 

Such details are easily overlooked but may be helpful.

 

I reconsidered the dating of my earlier pen and based on the celluloid smell I now think it must be from the period 1938-1940. Would you agree on that? The cap top is still BHR, the cap tube could be celluloid, though I'm not sure, and the section is almost certainly celluloid. The question on the missing cap holes is still unanswered. This makes me think that the nib is not the original one but is an earlier replacement.

 

My second pen is without any doubt from the last production period with transparent barrel, no cap rings but two knurled impressions, slick piston knob, nickel clip. Curiously, it does have two cap holes. The nib unit of that pen is definitely a replacement by an earlier gold nib because this pen was only sold with CN steel nibs.

 

Now to another question. Do you also have detailed dating information about your other early nibs you showed earlier?

[stoen]

Thanks for pointing at embossing details indicating different nib branding stampers, and possibly different places or/and times of manufacturing, @OMASsimo.

 

I’ll try to contribute to the “Dating Pelikan fountain pens” thread as soon as I what I believe those pens’ years come due. 

So, just a few hints for the moment:

• The nib #2 left is also catalogued as a very early nib, one can find this nib in “Pelikan collectibles” site. I bought this pen from a friend who is a very reliable professional pen repairman.  The pen looks like between 1935-36. The nib looks like a 1930-31 “Type 1”, possibly made by another outsourced manufacturer.
• The nib #3 was bought second hand from an antique shop, which got it from the original owner. It had a barrel broken beyond repair, but everything else was near mint. Seems it had bad luck very early, than stood forsaken in someone’s archive for maybe 80 years. I had to “rescue” the section, binde, brass ring and piston assembly and install a spare barrel I was lucky to have. Looks like year 1934. The nib is also catalogued as early in “Pelikan collectibles” (Type 2, 1930-37).

Here’s another picture: 

L: nib #3   (no texture)

R: nib #2   (striped texture)

What I suspect about nib embossing is that very early nib bold letters had some kind of straightly or diagonally striped textures (or no texture at all), while some later early nibs had  circle textured letters. I have not seen enough early nibs to presume this could have been some rule.

 

And here’s the nib #1, profile view. The sign I haven’t noticed before is somewhat looking like a small ilalic superscript serif letter n, next to the word KARAT, definitely not looking like a customs marking.

 

This all could be “internal” recognition signs pointing at some info on the nib source and year...

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by stoen
improved post quality

[stoen]

Two more pics of the same nibs I did last year, during maintenence. I’m posting them so someone may hopefully find them helpful in spotting clues for dating:

Nib #2

 

Nib#3

 

Does someonw perhaps know the purpose of the “inner” breathing hole and when it was introduced?

 

Thanks in advance!

[DerMarsianer]

Hello, this is a very interesting thread.

I've checked my own Pelikan 100 collection and was surprised. I have 8 pens with 6 different nib designs.
 

1 hour ago, stoen said:

Two more pics of the same nibs I did last year, during maintenence. I’m posting them so someone may hopefully find them helpful in spotting clues for dating:

Nib #2

 

Nib#3

 

Does someonw perhaps know the purpose of the “inner” breathing hole and when it was introduced?

 

Thanks in advance!

Two of my nibs look the same. Both nibs have the nibsize engraved to the right lamella of the feed. Both nibs came with a pen with typical details from 1934-1937. (old logo, celluloid and hardrubber, tappered section). So I would like to date these nibs to ca. 1935-1937.

 

The first one is a fine nib, the second one a medium. There is an 8 and a + engraved on the left side of the feed of the medium nib.
Don't be confused with the section of the second pen. I swapped the nib to another pen for daily use.

Greetings Thorsten

[DerMarsianer]

I've also found another nib similar to yours stoen:

Does it also have the superscript on the left side?

 

On 3/25/2021 at 11:40 PM, stoen said:

 

And here’s the nib #1, profile view. The sign I haven’t noticed before is somewhat looking like a small ilalic superscript serif letter n, next to the word KARAT, definitely not looking like a customs marking.

 

This all could be “internal” recognition signs pointing at some info on the nib source and year...

 

 

 

My nib came with a black Pelikan 100 from ca. 1931-1933 (celluloid, hardrubber, old logo, cylindric/concave section, four hole cap)

 

There is a double apostophe in front of the Karat and it seems there is one apostophe on the right side aswell, but the imprint is fading to that side. Maybe it was another double apostophe. There are bold letters with bubbles/circles in it. The i has two circles in the dot. The K of Karat is capitalized.

Thorsten

Edited March 28, 2021 by DerMarsianer

[Bo Bo Olson]

In a decade the knowledge now in the com is so much broader.

 

A decade ago when we had a fine passed Lady, Piembi, who was then our Pelican expert.  She knew the difference between a '82-91 W.Germany nib and the later '90 nibs. And a few other things of course.

 

Advising me in I was spoiled by the '50-65 era semi-flex not to get a W.Germany nib. I'd thoughts of chasing a W.Germany 400.

(A then foolish gold snob; to not even think about getting a W.Germany 200.)

 

I now have some W.Germany pens, OM in a 200 and 800 (both out and in use) and OBB in a small 600. And it is as even then was said, that slight tad better; but one has to have both to feel the difference.

 

She also gave me a small Oxford Optic 90g school notebook, with some 30 or so different inks of dogs jumping over a lazy fox and a swath, so I could see the differences.

It was also on that Oxford Optic note book, I discovered shading inks.

 

I of course as a 4 ink man had Lamy turquoise, the then standard turquoise ink all were compared too.

It was a nice....but blaaaa ink. I read in the then only two reviews of the ink and it Shaded!!! On the Oxford Optic 90g booklet Piembi gave me, it Shaded!!!

Oxford Optic 90g is also in the Red&Black notebook; a very good inexpensive paper. It is = to Clairefontaine Velout 90g.

 

The vastness of knowledge gathered since is just astounding.

 

[carlos.q]

I remember some of Piembi's fine posts. There was one with writing examples from several vintage Pelikan nibs that was truly wonderful. Sad to say but these pictures were hosted offsite and have been lost. 

[DerMarsianer]

Here are another two of my Pelikan 100 nibs. Both look the same, with bold letters and short slanted lines in it. Both have a little circle on the right side after KARAT.

The F nib came with a pen from 1931-33 and the M nib with the next generation pen (1934-37), but I don't know if those were the nibs the pens were produced with.

If everthing is authentic and original the nib could have been produced somewhere around 1933-34 (+/- a bit).

 

In my opinion both nibs have a very significant and a somewhat unique design for the tipping. They have sharp edes on the top and the tipping has almost the shape of a pentagon. If these nibs where made by another company, maybe someone saw this somewhere else.

 

I'm more familiar with flat and rounded tippings, so this was just an idea and I don't know if this grinding was more common that time.

More informations are always welcome!

[stoen]

13 hours ago, DerMarsianer said:

In my opinion both nibs have a very significant and a somewhat unique design for the tipping.

Thank you for your valuable contributions,  @DerMarsianer. Beautiful and well preserved nibs, indeed.

 

Do you have indications that tipping finish may point at a specific nib factory?

IMHO, the tipping finish is rather an artisan work, which requires a skilled craftsperson and specific tooling for individual nib grinding, rather than stampers for industrial nib forging, cutting welding and branding, which can eventually identify the sources of the nib. I’m convinced that nib grinding ar that period was a hand work,

 

Your “apostrophed” nib which came with the 1930/31 pen looks very similar to the one I have, with minor differences (circling, tip grade embssing).

 

As for the nibs you propose dating 1935-37, it seems circumstantial and a bit unlikely. Pelikan started making their own nibs in 1934. Why yould the in-house made nibs carry embossings so radically different? 

 

The “striped embossing” nib is dated somewhat earlier in the “Pelikan collectibles” site.

 

The “no-texture embossing” nib also looks earlier, pre-34. The grip section is mounted to a post 1940 “unibody” transparent acrylic section. I understand you did it for daily use. I’ve found this must have also been a rather common practice back in the thirties. I’ve seen quite a few original Pelikan 100 pens with nibs earlier than bodies installed to.

Neither of the two other nibs has a look which would indicate a uniform, in-house made series, sharing qualities similar to those post-1937 made, IMHO. Therefore they must be earlier.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by stoen
improving the post quality

[OMASsimo]

3 hours ago, DerMarsianer said:

Here are another two of my Pelikan 100 nibs. Both look the same, with bold letters and short slanted lines in it. Both have a little circle on the right side after KARAT.

The F nib came with a pen from 1931-33 and the M nib with the next generation pen (1934-37), but I don't know if those were the nibs the pens were produced with.

If everthing is authentic and original the nib could have been produced somewhere around 1933-34 (+/- a bit).

 

In my opinion both nibs have a very significant and a somewhat unique design for the tipping. They have sharp edes on the top and the tipping has almost the shape of a pentagon. If these nibs where made by another company, maybe someone saw this somewhere else.

 

I'm more familiar with flat and rounded tippings, so this was just an idea and I don't know if this grinding was more common that time.

More informations are always welcome!

Thank you for sharing these excellent pictures and infos. Both look very similar to one of my two nibs, including the slightly off-centre breather hole with respect to the slit. Only the teardrop point of the “i” might be a bit different. And the tipping does look rather unusual for a nib from that era. Of course, grinding the tip was much less standardised in the 1930s and I see quite a bit of variation. But in my experience, the top of the tip is almost always flat rather than angled. The only exceptions I know are “K” nibs, which have a tip more of the shape of a ball (“Kugel”) and protrude slightly above the top of the tines. Pelikan’s “S” nibs might be another exception but, unfortunately, I haven’t seen one in person, yet.