Dating Pelikan fountain Pen

[joss]

57 minutes ago, stoen said:

If you mean the short, recessed cap top version, I don’t have a catalog for the pre-1937 red short cap version. I have seen one in Portuguese, I believe, and one in Polish, a while ago.

 

Yet, I also have no evidence that a pre-1937 black-green “standard” recessed-captop pen was ever called a “101”.  If you had some evidence, please let know, this would help a lot.

 

I am referring to the statement that short cap models were derived from a basic 101.

🙂

 

You stated that "the plain ebonite cap (black, red) models have been often marketed outside Germany as “100” " so I am interested to learn how you came to this conclusion in respect to the version with red cap, regardless whether it has the short or normal cap dome.

 

The statement that "Short cap top variants were produced using the basic model 101" is wrong simply because there are Pelikan 100 pens with black cap and short cap dome.

[stoen]

On 4/21/2021 at 8:15 PM, joss said:

The statement that "Short cap top variants were produced using the basic model 101" is wrong simply because there are Pelikan 100 pens with black cap and short cap dome.

This is not my statement, @joss. I have already posted a photo of a black-and-green short cap top pen, which contradicts the above statement, because I doubt it is either a basic “101” or the statement is right, but have no evidence for backing my doubt. Could you please explain if there’s something wrong with this reasoning or attitude? Do you have an evidence the pen in the photo is called a “100”? Or a “101”? Or whatsoever? It would be great if so, please don’t mind letting know. 

 

I’m also considering, if discussing this dilemma may possibly better fit a separate thread?

I fully agree that circumstantial evidence and incomplete induction are scientifically irrelevant and possibly harmful, and have refrained from including them without clearly making a note on their being such. Yet, some times, in places such as this forum, where opinions are not unwelcome (whatever one may think of that), statements including a AFAIK, are not necesserily indicators of “mere gut feeling methodology” and/or disrespectful attitude toward the knowledge base and/or even “highly offensive” action/intention toward concerned Forum members or to whom it may concern, but possibly rather of some experiment shortened descriptions, humbly put into a more polite form.

🙂

 

Quote

plain ebonite cap (black, red) models have been often marketed outside Germany as “100” 

Please, don’t give significance to this statement for so far.

I’ve checked lately, and unfortunately I do not seem to have access to some of the primary (re)sources which could back the statement, that I used to have a while ago. So I can’t confirm validity of this statement for the 1935-1937 period, at least. As soon as the backing references satisfy making a point, I’ll jump in and let know. If someone in this forum finds evidence in support of this statement, please be so kind to let know.

I do have access to some elsewhere unpublished primary post-1938 referential (re)sources (100N/101N/100NT...), but this would eventually “come of age” when the respective models also come to schedule in this thread, if I decide it’s relevant enough for the topic. The same goes for the respective quotations from the Green Book.

 

Thanks.

🙂

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by stoen
clarifying the point

[tacitus]

Thank you for discussions @joss, @stoen, and everyone who commented and watched Pelikan forum and this thread.

 

Primary source and secondary sources were used originally in the field of history. They have nothing to do with rating. The author of Green Book enjoyed free access to primary sources. But, Green Book is not just a mixture of  primary sources as they were. The author collected, arranged, edited them with scholarly attitude, and wrote up the history of Pelikan pens. The book is the secondary source of the first-class. I also owe so much information to pelikan-collectibles and many other sites.

 

Providing reference / evidence is important. At the same time, if they are emphasized too much, we may feel difficulty in discussing. One of the aims of this forum is to share experiences and knowledge freely. I hope everyone feel free to do so as ever.

Edited April 24, 2021 by tacitus
edited to make the point more clearly

[DerMarsianer]

On 4/11/2021 at 11:50 PM, stoen said:

That’s beautiful and rare, @DerMarsianer!

👍

Would you please mind scanning and posting the User Guide for the 1st/2nd generation pen?

Thanks in advance!

I'm sorry. I was to busy the last days.

Here is the manual for the Pelikan Füllfederhalter. I hope this will not conflict with copyrights after 90 years:

At the left there are informations about the precision of the pen and a list of the patents (Deutsches Reichspatent, Deutsches Reichspatent angemeldet), for the pistone mechanism, for the feed, the cap and the clip.  They added some promotion for Pelikan ink at the right side.

 

I know there is another version of the second page with a logo in the middle instead of the advise "Beim Öffnen und Schließen gerieftes Ende nicht anfassen. ..."

The second side explains how to fill the pen, to keep it clean and clean the cap, when there is ink in it. The most interesting part:
You only have to dip the nib to the heart hole to fill the pen with ink! This helps to keep the section clean.

 

Some more advises for inking the pen, to keep it clean and promotion for the ink bottle no. 71.

 

I don't think I have to translate it word for word. Most of the information has already been discussed here.

greetings Thorsten

[DerMarsianer]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:43 AM, tacitus said:

 

Hello @stoen 

I just found the description about model 101 on the official site.
According to it, it seems that red-brown (cap) / tortoiseshell (sleeve) was an alternative option for tortoiseshell / tortoiseshell, and thus called "101".

On the other hand, the pen does not have "colored cap and sleeve made of the same material". I don't know if that model had its definition, but some experts may call it "100".

The french catalog from 1936 lists the following Pelikan 100 pens: plain black, black with green, grey and brown binde. There where also Pelikan 101: brown uni, lizard and imitation of tortoise shell.

I think the brown (marron uni) was the tortois shell pen with red cap, but the company itself was unconsistant with the numbering of the pens. For example the 111 and 111t where called pelikan 100 gold oder 100 toledo in the catalog 70 from 1938.

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Catalogues/index.html#heading_toc_j_4

[mana]

2 hours ago, DerMarsianer said:

I'm sorry. I was to busy the last days.

Here is the manual for the Pelikan Füllfederhalter. I hope this will not conflict with copyrights after 90 years:

At the left there are informations about the precision of the pen and a list of the patents (Deutsches Reichspatent, Deutsches Reichspatent angemeldet), for the pistone mechanism, for the feed, the cap and the clip.  They added some promotion for Pelikan ink at the right side.

 

I know there is another version of the second page with a logo in the middle instead of the advise "Beim Öffnen und Schließen gerieftes Ende nicht anfassen. ..."

The second side explains how to fill the pen, to keep it clean and clean the cap, when there is ink in it. The most interesting part:
You only have to dip the nib to the heart hole to fill the pen with ink! This helps to keep the section clean.

 

Some more advises for inking the pen, to keep it clean and promotion for the ink bottle no. 71.

 

I don't think I have to translate it word for word. Most of the information has already been discussed here.

greetings Thorsten

This is amazing! Thank you!

[tacitus]

16 hours ago, DerMarsianer said:

Here is the manual for the Pelikan Füllfederhalter.

 

16 hours ago, DerMarsianer said:

The french catalog from 1936 lists the following Pelikan 100 pens: plain black, black with green, grey and brown binde. There where also Pelikan 101: brown uni, lizard and imitation of tortoise shell...I think the brown (marron uni) was the tortois shell pen with red cap, but the company itself was unconsistant with the numbering of the pens. For example the 111 and 111t where called pelikan 100 gold oder 100 toledo in the catalog 70 from 1938.

 

Thank you @DerMarsianer for the manual and link to the catalogs😄.

Very interesting!

[tacitus]

Green indicates the changes in this generation.

 

Fifth generation
Pelikan 100 (ca.1937)

 

Cap top; material: ebonite, shape: conical, inclined cap top end, logo: new two chicks logo on the top and “Pelikan PATENT Pelikan PATENT” on the lateral side.
Cap tube; material: ebonite, shape: 2 cap holes (one hole facing each other), two gold plated narrow bands, grooved at the level of vent holes around the inner wall.
Clip; shape: gold plated drop clip.
Nib; material: 14 KG. shape: round shaped hole, logo:

Pelikan
585
14 KARAT

Note: in-house nib.
Nib socket; material: ebonite, shape: short (12 mm). 
Grip section; material: ebonite, shape; tapered, inclined top edge.
Barrel; material: transparent amber (yellow) or green celluloid with brass ring.
Sleeve (Binde); material: celluloid.
Knob unit; material: ebonite with cork seal, shape: knurled turning knob. Note: the pen has nib size specification on the cone (Fig.5). We can tell that it was for the domestic market.

Dimensions;

Total	Cap	Barrel	Barrel	Barrel	Cap	Ink	Total
length	length	length	width(1)	width(2)	width	chamber(3)	weight
117 mm	61 mm	93 mm	12 mm	11 mm	13 mm	1.5 ml	15 g

 ⁽¹⁾with sleeve ⁽²⁾without sleeve ⁽³⁾ink chamber volume

 

The years 1937 and 1938 were commemorable for Günter Wagner.

• In 1937, the company changed the design of nib imprint. Between “Pelikan'' and “14 KARAT” was inserted “585”, which was the purity of gold based on millesimal fineness. Millesimal fineness is the system of denoting the purity of alloys by parts per thousand of pure metal in the alloy. The system had already been used in gold sleeve. 
• In 1937, the company introduced model 100N. “N” stood for new, but rather than replace model 100, model 100N was produced concurrently, initially just for the export market (Pelikan’s 100N).
• In late 1937, Prof. Hadanck, who would design the company’s 100th anniversary catalog, redesigned the Pelikan logo (Fig.4 right). The artist proposed four draft designs to Fritz Beindorff, the owner of Günter Wagner. All original draft designs had three chicks in the nest. Beindorff could “bring himself to agree to one of the young birds being thrown overboard” from the point of view that “even the three remaining chicks are still too close together and difficult to make out, especially when reduced in size”.  Though he was satisfied with their modernization and close resemblance to the old logo, Beindorff thought that the clear “distinction between background, nest and bird” was important. Finally he accepted the new two chicks logo (Pelikan The Brand). The logo remained unchanged for the next 65 years (in 2003, the logo was altered and modified). The typography of "Pelikan" was also modified (Pelikan The Brand) (Fig.6 bottom, Fig.7 right).
• On April 28, 1938, Günter Wagner celebrated the 100th anniversary, and offered model 100N for the domestic market as part of the celebration.

Along with the emergence of model 100N, the changes of designs in model 100 marked a new “generation”.

 

At the same time, the war effort had cast a shadow over the company’s history, which the official site does not mention (as for the untold history, please refer to "The Concessions Of War: Pelikan, WWII, And The Untold Story". It is worth reading). Shortage and rationing had already begun. According to this article and Green Book:

• As of February 1937, model IBIS, the economy line of the time, was equipped with palladium “Pd” nibs in order to conserve gold for the war effort.
• In mid-1937, gold nibs in stores were bought up from retailers for use in the war effort.
• On February 5, 1938, the use of gold nibs for the domestic market was forbidden by the government (for a while, gold nibs in stock were on the market).
• As of May 16, 1938, models 100 and 100N for the domestic market were fitted with Pd nibs, as the use of raw materials such as gold was put under control of the government.

So, officially this was the last generation that had the gold nib for the domestic market, and literally the last “golden” generation.

NB; the first year model 100N (ca.1937) had “585” imprint on the nib, while the old four chicks logo.

 

Fig.1

 

Fig.2

 

Fig.3

 

Fig.4 left; ca.1933, right; ca.1937

 

Fig.5

 

Fig.6 top; 1926, middle; 1934, bottom; 1937

 

Fig.7 left; ca.1933, middle; ca.1935, right; ca.1937

 

[tacitus]

AMENDMENT to Fourth generation (short cap top pen)

 

Pelikan 100 black cap (the site is optimized for Mozilla Firefox)

 

I remembered this famous site, and found photos of “standard” short cap top pens (when I was preparing to post, the site did not come to my mind😅).

 

As stated, "several different variants were produced using the basic model 100 shape and differing cap proportions."

 

I also found “standard” short cap top pens in Japanese site (Pen Cluster, the vintage pen seller).

Black short cap top 100
- The nib has the “HEF” imprint on it. It may date back to 1933-1934. 

Jade green short cap top 100 
- This pen has already been shown by @stoen. It has the unique imprint (⛛) on the nib. It is difficult to date it.

[tacitus]

Hello

 

@christof sent a photo of his 100 for me.

 

According to him, this is "a pen which is something between your 1930 and 1931 variant. It shows all the signs of a 1930 Pelikan (2nd generation characterized by straight cap top and two narrow bands: italic by author), but the barrel is in two parts, the section is hard rubber and the barrel is celluloid (3rd generation: 1931-)".

 

I think it is a beautiful example of transient pen.

 

Thank you@christof😊

 

 

PS; I'm preparing "the 6th generation". But, at the generation model 100 reached turning point, and underwent many constructional and material changes since the 3rd generation. It will take some time before next post.  

Edited May 2, 2021 by tacitus
information added

[Rick Propas]

Very informative thread. But I would note that the purpose of the threaded nib assemblies was not, and is not, to allow "unscrewing the nib assembly for maintenance." The factory never had that in mind. The purpose was to allow retailers to stock a wide variety of nibs without having to carry a huge inventory. Anyone unscrewing a nib on one of these pens is more likely to end up with a broken, rather than a clean, pen. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I believe Rick once said a number of years ago, something about only silicon grease  a pen every 3 or more years; or when it needs it,  which ever is longer.

 

I have some vintage Pelikan pens, I've never greased. Others I last greased over 5 years ago, in some cases well over.

A nice passed poster gave me a narrow thumbnails worth of silicon grease a bit over a decade ago, and I still have half.

 

Rick's comment kept me away from developing a habit of greasing what don't need to be greased. With out his advice I'm sure I'd slipped into it's the 30th of February, time to grease all my pens again....or worse; change ink color, re-grease.

 

There are a lot of folks that are real OCD on hidden ink none can see....or buy a clear demonstrator and freak out with a couple half drops of ink behind the piston.

They then yank the Pelikan apart like it's a Twsbi....and sooner than later; ruin it.

Then they probably sell it.

 

A Pelikan is not a Twsbi made to be taken apart and cleaned often.

 

I have to admit I do take the nib off, then save piston wear by using my rubber bulb to clean out the pen body. Another rubber bulb with a wider cut mouth is for cleaning out nib sections fast.....sort of a reverse of cleaning out a CC pen with a rubber syringe bulb, but over the outside of the nib section.

 

On the old 4 comb nibs I am very, very, very careful the first time, using a folded paper towel in the crease of my end left forefinger joint....(after having soaked the nib for quite a while.) placing the thumb on top of the nib before gently twisting the pen towards me to twist the nib section out. The nib is held steady, so no force is applied from nib removal.

I could see someone screwing things up twisting with both hands....in impatience cost $$$$.

There is enough warnings out there about being slow and careful when screwing a nib in, about cocking the threads.

[tacitus]

 

Thank you for comments @Rick Propasand @Bo Bo Olson.

Any comments and corrections are welcome😊.

 

I understand that trying to remove nib unit is dangerous.

But, unscrewing nib units using the special pliers will be pleasant! 

 

[stoen]

On 5/5/2021 at 11:35 PM, Rick Propas said:

the purpose of the threaded nib assemblies was not, and is not, to allow "unscrewing the nib assembly for maintenance." The factory never had that in mind.

Please, pardon my humble attempt to clarify this, @Rick Propas.

Is there a source showing that unscrewing the nib unit for maintenence was factory disallowed (for Pelikan 100 class pens)?

By inspecting the end-user documentation boxed with each pen one can’t find it mentioned there. Therefore one can only conclude it was off-limits for the end-user maintenence attempts. No user serviceable parts inside, one would write nowadays.

🙂

However, the “Green book”, page 134 reproduces a document “Der durchsichtige Pelikan Füllhalter in seinen Einzelteilen” (The transparent Pelikan pen part by part), from which it may be concluded that nib assembly unscrewing could have been part of a maintenence/service routine in (tooled-up) service booths of Pelikan licensed stationary shops, which were rather common back then. http://www.pelikan-guide.com/Tools.html

What can perhaps be considered as explicitly required by the manufacturer was replacing entire defective nib units (nib + feed + collar assemblies) and sending them back to the factory for further treatment, as far as I have understood from that document. Also, in dealer price lists, a nib unit could be back-ordered only as a single part. 

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Catalogues/index.html#heading_toc_j_3

 

Please, correct me if my comment proves wrong. Thanks in advance.

[mana]

4 hours ago, tacitus said:

...one of these days... 😍

[Bo Bo Olson]

There were a couple of vintage Pelikan nib twisters that fit the vertical combs 5 or 6 years ago, that went for $250 or more. Then....

I shudder to think what they would bring on the US market now....where a E-120 pen 400nn goes for $285 or more.

[Rick Propas]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:12 AM, stoen said:

 

As all of us go through this "dating" experience, try to remember that the factory (Pelikan and others) did not play by our "rules." They built pens from parts on hand. Most notoriously, Parker, in about 1939 or '40 discovered a trove of parts and made a bunch of pens that were never catalogued. Similarly, many of us have speculated that Pelikan made up batches of, one example, white gold overlays and used them for several years on so-called 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation barrels. Add to that later repairs and marriages and it tends to get complicated. Sometimes a finding, discovery, etc. is nothing more than an educated guess. Setting aside chocolates and roses (thank you mizgeorge), when I date a pen I try to look at how the parts fit together, search for signs of modification, and always bear in mind all these variables and that I am guessing.

 

 

 

[Rick Propas]

On 4/16/2021 at 7:09 PM, tacitus said:

ADDENDUM to Fourth generation

Before going to the next generation, I want to stop by a pen, or rather its cap top.

 

Günter Wagner made short cap top pens for the export markets.

The lineup were as follows (Green Book):

black / green (standard)
black / black (standard)
red-brown / tortoiseshell
coral red / coral red
jade green / jade green etc.

I might add that there were also short captop 111Ts. We know of about five of these models. It is speculated that they were custom orders but as the Germans say wer Weiß. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that all models were offered with short captops, at least in the 100 models. I have not seem them so much in the 100Ns.

 

On 4/16/2021 at 7:09 PM, tacitus said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rick Propas]

On 4/21/2021 at 8:01 AM, joss said:

I'm a PhD historian by trade and training, Pelikan Schreibgeräte is, by definition a secondary source. It has nothing to do with reliability it is in the nature of the source.

The importance for us is indeed to provide proper references/evidence when statements are made.

 

But the author of the 'green book' was a Pelikan employee who had unlimited access to the Pelikan archives (which likely include posters, brochures and price lists) so it is quite offensive to rate that book as as 'secondary source', even if it may contain some minor inaccuracies. The author also wrote the Pelikan history that is presented on the official Pelikan website (www.pelikan.com).

The info that Dominic has gathered on his Pelikan collectibles website is backed up by solid evidence from original catalogs and brochures and you can easily contact him if you find wrong data on his website.

 

 

[Rick Propas]

On 4/21/2021 at 11:04 AM, joss said:

I wish it were this simple. We do not have full records. Informed speculation by those who know the subject is most properly labeled interpretation and it is legitimate. Historians do it all the time. It's sharp tool, one to be used by only the trained and skilled, but it has value.

 

Doing new research should be encouraged but the conclusions that are drawn should be evidence based and not result from mere gut feelings. When we correct old knowledge or add new knowledge we should have the decency to include proper evidence. Statements that are accompanied by a "as far as I know" or "if I remember correctly" or "I think that I have seen" are essentially worthless and they also contaminate the knowledge that was gathered based on facts.